LDS and Immigration

[Traveler]

A short history. Mexico offered settlers (from anywhere) 5,000 archers if they would come and live on the land. Several prominent Americans – including Sam Huston – went to what is now Texas and started taking all the land he could get. Much of the land Sam and others took had settlers already living on the land but (especially if the people on the land were loyal to Mexico) he took land and did not pay anyone for it. Other Americans were doing the same thing and when the Mexican government heard there was a problem because they did not have the means to defend the people on the land. So a general, named Santa Anna started out with a few professional soldiers and started heading north recruiting volunteers as he went. When he arrived at what is now called the Alamo he engaged the Americans and the result was the Spanish American War.

When the Mormons started for the west most of the Western Territories still belonged to Mexico. Mormons were recruited by the US government to fight as mercenaries in the Spanish American war – which ended before the Mormons arrived to fight any battles. Following the treaty that ended the Spanish American war the USA went through a land grab process in which they took the land and made it part of the US Territories. Ironically, Mexico never agreed to give up the land but was unable to do anything about it. Because much of the land was not occupied by Mexican citizens there was little official action available to Mexico in stopping the US from taking the land.

It was very convenient that the Mormons settled the west and enabled the US to claim ownership. Just prior to the Civil War the USA sent Johnston’s Army to Utah to seize Mormon land and end polygamy in the west. The army failed but signed a treaty. The treaty was used as the bases to take Mormon polygamist assets and land. Under this threat many polygamist headed north to Canada or South to Mexico. The Mormon polygamy colonist in Mexico befriended Francisco “Pancho” Villa who was considered an outlaw in the USA and a patriot in Mexico. It was with the help of Pancho Villa that the Mormons were able to obtain permanent title to land in Mexico from the Mexican government.

One thing about all this history. Many Mexicans coming into the USA illegally have full intent of staying here but never becoming part of the USA. Their individual intent is to reclaim land they think should belong to Mexico and therefore to occupy whatever land they can get by whatever means they can get it with hope to return it to Mexican rule.

One last thought – For those arguing that the USA has better opportunity than Mexico. In reality Mexico has more natural resources than the USA – the only reason there is more opportunity here than Mexico is because of the social political structure of Mexico. But interestingly, many of those coming to the USA are not really fleeing the social political structure but are making great efforts to bring it with them.

The Traveler

[marshac]

[One thing about all this history. Many Mexicans coming into the USA illegally have full intent of staying here but never becoming part of the USA. Their individual intent is to reclaim land they think should belong to Mexico and therefore to occupy whatever land they can get by whatever means they can get it with hope to return it to Mexican rule.

For those who are curious, a quick google for "Aztlan" will pull up more than you ever wanted to know.

[hordak]

In my case, and in the cases of many others living in other countries across the globe, the USA can offer me nothing that my own country can't.

Semi auto center-fire rifle for no other reason then the love of shooting

[Dravin]

Semi auto center-fire rifle for no other reason then the love of shooting

Don't forget that nice revolver of yours either. Of course Europeans are more likely to look at that as a reason not to come here in my limited exposure.

[Mahone]

Don't forget that nice revolver of yours either. Of course Europeans are more likely to look at that as a reason not to come here in my limited exposure.

I think that "limited exposure" was enough to give you a fairly accurate idea of what the opinion of the majority of Europeans is :)

I've certainly never come across people here who actually want keeping guns in the house (or concealed on their person) to be legal, and I think the majority would feel less safe if it were legal.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Mahone

[Just_A_Guy]

Bah. An armed society is a polite society.

And we Americans are nothing if not polite.

[darrel]

I think we need to remember we are talking about the remnant of Jocob who have been promised that they will be again reinstated to their promised land when the Gentiles have ripened in iniquity. The rightous Gentiles will be numbered with them and will help them build the New Jerusalem.

The Gentiles who have ripened in iniquity need to be aware thet the remnant of the Lamonites (Jacob) will be allowed to assist with the cleansing of the unrighteous gentiles.

3 Nephi 21:22 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

Edited November 6, 2010 by darrel

[Dravin]

Well there is an argument to warm the cockles of the heart. You need to get along with the South American immigrants* so you can help/watch them kill your unrighteous neighbors.

I presume we can still keep the Canadians out though, right?

* Of course illegal versus legal is a separate issue.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Dravin

[darrel]

I apologize if my post was inappropriate or in the wrong place.

[Dravin]

I apologize if my post was inappropriate or in the wrong place.

It isn't in the wrong place, and as far as I'm concerned it isn't inappropriate. It is in the scriptures after all. It just seems an odd argument to make in the context of this thread.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Dravin

[darrel]

My comment was to give another view on what is happening. We know the prophesies will be fulfilled but when and how is yet to be revealed.

I am endevoring to look at what is happening in light of prophesy. If I need to start another thread or change my approach in this thread then as a senior moderator I hope you will help me go that direction.

Edited November 7, 2010 by darrel

[rameumptom]

To get this back on track:

I think Pam agrees that for security issues, we need to secure our borders and deport anyone who seems to be a major threat to internal security and safety of the USA.

However, our immigration system is broken. I have several friends who have married foreigners, from England to Brazil, who have had to spend over 5 years and tens of thousands of dollars to legally bring them in to the USA. That is utterly ridiculous. It mocks the words on the Statue of Liberty's base: "give me your tired, your poor...."

Too many Americans today seem like the "Know Nothing" party of the 19th century, who feared the Irish Catholics coming in and destroying America. We need to secure our border to prevent terrorists, drug dealers, and other security concerns from entering our nation. Then we need to loosen the requirements for entrance, and allow families from all over Latin America to come in and bless us with their ethic of hard work, conservative social views, and focus on traditional families. As part of a legal immigration, they will not be interested in Aztlan. Nor will they become part of the problems, but become a financial benefit as they pay taxes, etc. Many are young, so their health is better than the aging population we currently have, which will help drive down health care costs. They will also increase the numbers paying into Social Security, Medicare, etc., which will strengthen our base. And as legal immigrants, they can send their kids to college, where they will be able to strengthen our nation as we gear them towards degrees in science and math.

Without an influx of new blood, our nation will grow old and die in a whimper.

In the Book of Mormon, we see how immigrants can strengthen a nation. The Ammonites are a perfect example. The taxes they paid helped Captain Moroni build up a professional army and build ramparts around the cities. Later, their stripling warrior sons would bring success to Helaman's army in the biggest battles and wars they'd had. While many Nephites became apostates and sought power as king-men, the immigrants kept the true faith of Christ alive.

We are foolish if we think that the current system will save us in any way or form. Bring them in with open arms, even as Isaiah foresaw the Gentiles bringing in the children of Israel on their shoulders and being blessed for it, so we will be blessed, and saved, by modern day Ammonite immigrants.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm just not getting traction for my suggestion. So, maybe this catchy bumpersticker slogan will do the trick...

'Tear Down this Wall'--Hire More Bureacrats!

Might need some work, but perhaps if we suggested that the backlog of legal immigration cases is a threat to national security, we could get a handle on this?

[Dravin]

I'm just not getting traction for my suggestion. So, maybe this catchy bumpersticker slogan will do the trick...

'Tear Down this Wall'--Hire More Bureacrats!

Might need some work, but perhaps if we suggested that the backlog of legal immigration cases is a threat to national security, we could get a handle on this?

Naw, go for the wallet. "Legal Immigrants work over the table - End the backlog!"

[Just_A_Guy]

In the Book of Mormon, we see how immigrants can strengthen a nation. The Ammonites are a perfect example. The taxes they paid helped Captain Moroni build up a professional army and build ramparts around the cities. Later, their stripling warrior sons would bring success to Helaman's army in the biggest battles and wars they'd had. While many Nephites became apostates and sought power as king-men, the immigrants kept the true faith of Christ alive.

Well . . . it wasn't all sunshine and daisies even back then. The conversion of the Ammonites provided the Lamanites with an excuse for multiple military actions against the Nephite nation (it's just that it started with Ammonihah, so no one really cares). The mass exodus of Lamanite converts from their homeland--including the Lamanite royal family--de-stabilized the Lamanite monarchy and arguably paved the way for the rise of Amalakiah and his brother and the nearly-ruinous war that they initiated. The Ammonites were a boon against the king-men in the short term; but the Nephite political structure still collapsed within a generation of their arrival.

Not saying that anything like that would happen today; but I'm not convinced that the discussion is really furthered by invoking scriptural stories whose interpretations have been over-simplified through the years.

[rameumptom]

JAG,

Wicked people always will find an excuse for their efforts. The Lamanite King Anti-Nephi-Lehi and his brother King Lamoni left, because he and his people were forced out. They would not take up arms, and would have been slaughtered had they stayed. So regardless of their staying or going, the Lamanites would have found reasons to invade the Nephite lands and be fodder for Amalickiah.

This is not the only story of a people strengthening the Nephites. The Lamanites had taken control of half of the Nephite lands in battle against Moronihah. They were unable to regain anymore of their lands back. But the two missionary brothers, Lehi and Nephi, went amongst the Lamanites in those occupied territories and converted almost all of them. The Nephites regained their lands, and the Lamanites became so righteous and powerful that their government could not be easily toppled.

Instead, the wicked were forced to create a band of Gadianton robbers, hiding in the mountains, as their only way of surviving. The Nephites were torn between joining the robbers and being faithful, like the Lamanites. You'll note in the story of Samuel the Lamanite, that while many tried to slay him, many others sought out Nephi and were baptized.

Yes, history is never as simple as we sometimes think. Our own wars, WWI and WWII, for instance, have directly led to other wars, though we could not have foreseen it at the time. WWI led to WWII. Both led to the Cold War, Korean and Vietnam wars. After WWI, Pres Wilson divided up the conquered nations, such as Serbia, in such a way as to guarantee the Serbian-Croatia wars decades later. And it goes on and on.

Still, we cannot necessarily put full blame on one incident in creating the situation for the next. This is especially true if the individuals involved change. Yet, for every change made, there is almost always positive and negative consequences. Horses were used in NYC in the 19th century. Their pollution was a negative consequence that bred foul odors and disease. The combustible engine solved that problem, but created new pollution and congestion problems. Subways resolved much of that, but opened the door for other issues and problems.

So it is here. There is an ongoing battle to fix things, but the only times things have really been "fixed", even for a period of time, is when the wicked have been destroyed, and the righteous reign alone. We see this in the City of Enoch and in the Nephite Zion.

While increasing legal immigration will create some problems, it looks like it will resolve more problems than create. To keep people indefinitely in an illegal status only exacerbates the problem. We must give them an opportunity to become good citizens, casting out those who are Gadianton Robbers. In the long run, they will become a boon for us.