LDS and Immigration

[pam]

I'm starting this thread because of a comment that was made by Ram in another thread. Rams comments are so closely to how I feel. I hope I can express exactly what my thoughts are here as sometimes I find myself a little too emotionally involved when this subject comes up.

Let me preface this by saying: We, as LDS, believe in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law. Part of that would be also following the laws of immigration. I, too, believe that all here in the US should be here legally. I too, get a bit upset that I don't qualify for some assistance programs but others do. That's not really the point of my thoughts and this thread.

My thoughts are concerning the attitudes that many LDS have regarding immigration. It's almost as if we forget that we are to be a compassionate people. That we should love all of our brothers and sisters. LDS or not.

I think sometimes we get caught up so much in the negative aspect of those that are here illegally, we forget why some are here. To provide a better living environment for their families. Which is what we all want to do.

Why do I feel that compassion is thrown by the wayside when it comes to this topic? To see comments that say..."well thems the rules" shows me the mindset or lack of compassion that I am referring to.

How is it that we lose our compassion at times for those that only want to better their own lives when it comes to a subject such as this.

Shoot, I don't even know if this makes sense. I'm just ranting and venting.

[Dravin]

Why do I feel that compassion is thrown by the wayside when it comes to this topic? To see comments that say..."well thems the rules" shows me the mindset or lack of compassion that I am referring to.

Admission that the rule of law is something one subjects themselves to when stepping onto the soil of a state is a lack of compassion? Likewise that it cannot/should not be arbitrarily applied based on sob factor?

No, what is a lack of compassion is I do not weep for every tragedy or unhappy circumstance that is reported by the media. To be honest I simply don't have the emotional energy to invest myself like that into every random news report. While you are reading this post time how long it takes you. Then go to Poodwaddle 2010 World Clock and click on "deaths" and "now" and wait for the same amount of time to elapse. How many people died while you were reading my post? Surely death is more tragic than deportation?

As a practical matter I'm numb to it. To quote Buffy:

Every single person down there is ignoring your pain because they're too busy with their own. The beautiful ones. The popular ones. The guys that pick on you. Everyone. If you could hear what they were feeling. The loneliness. The confusion. It looks quiet down there. It's not. It's deafening...

[Just_A_Guy]

I think, in the case of the thread you mention--for a lot of us, it's not so much a lack of compassion for the family's circumstances per se; it's the complete lack of introspection, accountability, and candor that accompanies it.

Do I feel bad for the family? Sure. But if Ms. Zalazar wishes to attack ICE agents as "heartless", she'd better expect some pushback from people who look at the factual circumstances and point out the multiple instances of gross negligence on her part. If she's going to give us a story about being deported on "one-day's notice", she'd better pray to the Almighty that no one can look online and find that she was "told to prepare to be deported" a week ago, and in fact had what was supposed to be her final appeal rejected four years ago.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[marshac]

An often overlooked problem with illegal immigration does DOES affect me and my family is disease- anyone coming to the US legally must undergo a physical exam whereas those coming here illegally do no. I live in an area with a huge illegal population and I credit them for my positive TB test result- hopefully it always stays latent and if it does ever become active, that it isn't MDR or XDR TB.

Like it or not, the US doesn't have the resources to care for everyone in the world who manages to get into the country- heck, the US doesn't even have the resources to care for its own citizens... and with a budget hole of nearly $2T, even the current level of services will necessarily be scaled back in the future. The best way I feel we can help others in other countries is to see what is missing from their basic needs- maybe their village needs a well for clean water, or perhaps assistance on better (or more appropriate) farming methods. The answer isn't (and as a practical matter can't) to say "sure, come live in my house!" If you honestly feel this way, then I've gotta ask- how many homeless people are living with you and your family at your house now? If the answer is zero, why?

Edited November 5, 2010 by marshac

[prisonchaplain]

If the U.S. were serious about immigration reform and solving the problem of the reality that we are a global laughing-stock--the richest most powerful nation cannot get a handle on who's coming in and who's going out--then we'd do the incredibly non-political, non-juicy thing: We'd hire several thousand immigration workers to process the ridiculous pile up of paperwork! Some legal immigrants--folks we know we want here--wait 14 years to be processed. That's absurd. Once we streamline who we DO want in, we can then focus on those we're worried about.

BUT...folks don't get elected hiring a bunch of GS5-7 federal workers at about $40K/year per person...so don't look for this to happen any time soon.

[Guest xforeverxmetalx]

As far the idea of "compassion for those only trying to make a better life" goes, why are illegal immigrants the only ones this applies to? If some poor family steals from another to provide food, is that not the same thing? In either case, it's still breaking the law. It's not an excuse.

But of course at the same time we're taught to love one another, including the sinner, and including the law breakers. The thing is, that love doesn't mean it's okay to break the law.

[jennvan]

I agree with Dravin in the confusion of compassion and understanding the rule of law. Would these people do the same thing with Canada or England or Guatemala? No, it would never be allowed. I feel that if they are seeking a better life that they should apply to come legally. Its hard and yet people do it regularly.

One of my favorite tv shows is 30 Days by Morgan Spurlock where he (or someone he chooses) goes and lives a life different from their own to gain understanding. He has a new one with illegal immigration. It was interesting. The person who lived with the illegal immigrants then went down to Mexico to see the conditions that the family was escaping from. He was appalled at the conditions such that even the worst of what they could have here in the US was head and shoulders above where they were in Mexico. But not all of Mexico is that bad. There are other areas that are better. Why don't they move to the better areas of Mexico?

And I would refer to the counsel from modern apostles and prophets that people are to stay in their homeland to build up the church in their own areas. What is interesting to me is that people don't travel south to escape the problems of Mexico, they come to America. So its really about the corruption that is rampant in many areas of Mexico and other South American countries. I LOVED when the church announced the microlending for members in South America because that is how we will be able to change those countries. I believe we need to support good people in those areas so that they can gain the strength to overcome the corruption and create good environments for everyone. Even for those outside of the church, this can hold true. We can't do this as a "country" because then we would just be trying to "take over Mexico" but we can certainly do a lot of good on our own.

[beefche]

Do I lack compassion for those who because of a lack of healthcare have suffered? Because I'm opposed to universal healthcare that means I'm full of pride or lack compassion or whatever else people say?

I understand why people want to live here. We have a wonderful country and have many opportunities here that are not available to those in other lands (this is not a dismissal of the many wonderful places other than US that people can and do live). But, at the same time, we cannot allow people we don't know free access to anywhere in our country. We have a right to expect our government to protect us from foreign danger.

Have you seen the atrocities that are occurring on our southern borders? Kidnappings, murders, drugs, etc. It truly baffles me why our government isn't doing more to protect her citizens....do we fear offending the offenders? Why can't Mexico (and again, I realize that immigrants come from other countries) and the US work together on cleaning up the mess that is going on in that country? Whole police forces resigning due to fear of being killed, prosecutors being kidnapped and killed, etc. is atrocious!

[hordak]

I think most have compassion

sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it

We just disagree on how to alleviate the distress. To be honest, and i don't mean this as an attack on you, i find many times when one side accuses the other side of lacking compassion they really mean acceptance of the behavior.( and maybe that is not what you mean). We can be compassionate on this issue and still expect the rule to be upheld just as the church can be compassionate to members with same sex attraction and still say " these are the rules".

[Suzie]

I don't think those of us who are against illegal immigration lack compassion when we talk about rules, etc. If that's the case, the Lord along with Church leaders lack compassion when they disfellowship or excommunicate a member for committing a serious sin...

[Traveler]

I have a number of concerns. I am involved in consulting with a company in Phoenix and during my visits there I have see why illegal immigration is a concern close the border. But this is not new. About 40 years ago I was working through college and one of the places I worked was a State Farm Insurance office. At the time I was doing a lot of work with claims. Even back then if there was a hit and run or an accident where the faulted driver had no economic means or insurance to cover any of the damage they caused it was almost always(maybe 90% of the time) an illegal immigrant. It was interesting to me how the solution to this became to pass “uninsured motorist” laws. Or, if you will – punish those that abide by the law.

Often in debates over illegal immigration I ask those wishing reform – What exactly is the law you think needs to be reformed? And why? The answer to my question is not about the law but about the needs or desires of the people breaking the law. I am concerned that there will never be reform as long as there is no understanding of any unjust laws. In short I am very upset with the whole concept of immigration reform. I believe we need to reassess law and the purpose of having law in society.

Despite my concerns and opposition to braking the law or enabling others to disrespect our laws – there is another aspect of illegal immigration that is seldom addressed. This land and country is a precious land to G-d that he has promised to those that respect and honor their covenants with him. According to this covenant if we turn away from G-d as a people then the L-rd will bring others to this land and we will lose this land as a land of heritage. If our heritance is lost – I doubt we will think it lawful or just. For what-ever reason people often in their freedom and prosperity they will reject G-d and the needy. The L-rd has also spoken that who-so-ever comes to this land will do so under the direction of G-d. Therefore, I am deeply troubled. I believe because many in this land have rejected G-d and because there are others in other lands that are more willing to look to G-d that there will continue to be time of great change in this land.

The Traveler

[mightynancy]

I think having a mindful discussion isn't necessarily a lack of compassion.

Either a lack of compassion or a serious case of whack-a-doodle made my tea-party neighbor answer the door on Halloween dressed as a border patrol agent (complete with real firearm) and demand to know if we were illegal aliens. I pointed at my dressed-as-a-mummy daughter, told him she was here from Egypt. He didn't quite know what to do with that. I truly hope that no little brown kids rang his bell that night. Another time in Sunday School, the atmosphere turned ugly - this was no compassionate belief in rules, it was hatred for "them".

As an interpreter, I am in on social work meetings frequently (I work in an elementary school). There are a lot of resources that people CAN'T get if they're not legal; there are many fewer channels for illegals to receive aid, and most of them are from private charitable organizations. It's a fallacy that people come here and get all this free aid that citizens can't get. The exception would be fraud, and that's not confined to illegal immigrants.

I guess this is a long way of saying "It depends." Some LDS compassionately wish to help improve things around the world so that people can stay in their homelands and build a better life, and thus oppose illegal immigration. Others really just want those folks to stay the heck out of amurica. I've seen both.

[marshac]

I pointed at my dressed-as-a-mummy daughter, told him she was here from Egypt.

Awesome! I love it!

[Dravin]

Awesome! I love it!

He should have said Peru.

[Suzie]

Either a lack of compassion or a serious case of whack-a-doodle made my tea-party neighbor answer the door on Halloween dressed as a border patrol agent (complete with real firearm) and demand to know if we were illegal aliens. I pointed at my dressed-as-a-mummy daughter, told him she was here from Egypt. He didn't quite know what to do with that. I truly hope that no little brown kids rang his bell that night. Another time in Sunday School, the atmosphere turned ugly - this was no compassionate belief in rules, it was hatred for "them".

Often times I wonder if those same "haters" have a problem with blond and blue eyes illegal aliens from Europe.

[Dravin]

Often times I wonder if those same "haters" have a problem with blond and blue eyes illegal aliens from Europe.

Historically yes. The Irish anyone (though I suppose maybe not so much blue eyes)? And they weren't even in the country illegally and they could speak the language. Of course with the Irish example that just means people can be strangely egalitarian in their prejudices*. Don't get me wrong though, I'm sure there is no small number of people for whom the fact the current batch of illegal immigrants are brown is a factor.

* We're still talking haters right? Not just people who oppose the presence of people illegally in the country even if they are rather zealous about it?

[bcguy]

I spent 5 grand, went thought FBI, RCMP and Sheriff back ground check to where I lived since 18 "I was 35 then" and where I worked since that age. It was a real pain to say the least. I am from the state. I am across the border from my home state of Washington. I can say, ship the illegals back to where they came from since I did it legally, why cant the illegals do the same?

[pam]

I knew that what I was trying to say would get lost in my presentation of it. But interesting to read perspectives.

[FunkyTown]

I dunno, Pam. I agree with you. Maybe we're in the minority, but I think the attitude of the US towards immigration should be:

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Call me crazy, Pam, but that's just off the top of my head. Y'know. If I were to put in to words what sort of compassion the US should have to those seeking a better life.

[Jamie123]

I think the Indians need to start getting tough with all those white people who barged their way in in 1620.

[pam]

The idea that I was trying to get across was this. Unless we are Native American, every single one of our families started off as immigrants. Many came here to perhaps have a better life, more freedoms to enjoy and a better place to hopefully raise families. Not to mention freedom to worship as they choose.

Perhaps my beef isn't so much about immigration but compassion for those from other lands. Those who aren't from a culture that we here in the US are familiar with. Honestly I get tired of the comments that "It's all the darn illegal Mexicans fault." Doesn't matter what it is, it's their fault in some way. If they want to live here let them speak our language. They don't belong here. Deport the whole bunch.

Surprising living in Utah how much more I hear this than what I heard living in So. California right next to the border. Also surprising how much more I hear this from LDS members than those who are not members. This is the attitude I'm talking about. Again, if we are taught by our General Authorities and Christ himself to love everyone, why do we still have such an attitude about people?

[Suzie]

Pam, I agree completely with what you are saying however I think that's entirely another topic. Some of us who do not support illegal immigration do it based on laws and SAFETY, not race, ethnicity or hate.

How do you feel about those illegal aliens who steal SS numbers, use fake documents or even take over another person's identity? (and put them in debt as well!) and I am speaking about good, law abiding citizens who are now faced with identity theft? Mercy cannot rob justice.

[pam]

That's why I said perhaps my beef is really not about immigration.

[Suzie]

That's why I said perhaps my beef is really not about immigration.

Possibly. I literally HATE when people start saying that "we should shoot them all" and things like that or make ugly jokes about them. One thing is to be against illegal immigration, another thing is to be hateful AND racist (yes, I think a lot of people who think like that do it mainly out of racism and NOT immigration).

[Jamie123]

How do you feel about those illegal aliens who steal SS numbers, use fake documents or even take over another person's identity? (and put them in debt as well!)

I think I'd feel the same way as I would about anyone who committed that sort of crime, regardless of whether or not they were an illegal alien.