Modest Clothing for Larger Busts

[pam]

Honestly, your argument makes about as much sense as arguing that someone who uses a certain euphemism for masturbation is guilty of asphyxiating poultry.

... and complain about how LDS are overly focused on sexuality.

Oh my heck..I about fell on the floor reading this.

[dash77]

Dravin and others:

Let me try to make this more simple.

One of my main arguments at this site – in different posts – is that people (including LDS) unconsciously belief that having larger sexual attributes is superior (the bigger is better myth). I think this is harmful to human and spiritual development. There are many proven academic studies that language creates behaviors and personalities and language outlines the unconscious (perhaps the most famous is the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis that has come out of linguistics anthropology -- it holds that speakers of different languages think differently, just by the nature of language, thus outlining that language creates human personality). I could list other thinkers who agree and the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis is highly supportive.

In essence, I am suggesting that even at this website there is a belief among certain people that larger sexual attributes are better than smaller ones and that this belief (which may be mainly unconscious) is alive and well. I think it is based on low human ego development, pride and the natural man. I have been trying to unmask it at this website in different posts (e.g. motivation behind breast implants) and suggested that nude beaches could help to debunk it (but then began to disagree with my original thinking that nude beaches could debunk this unconscious myth).

To this end, can you provide other explanation for why someone might say “I have been blessed up top” or “my wife was blessed up top” when referring to women who are larger but that phrase and term is never used when a women is smaller up top? Can you provide a different explanation when someone says “My husband is well-endowed down there” instead of saying something like “my husband is larger down there” (this is an accurate description without the gifted aspects). Again, deep down, I think when it comes to sexual attributes I think most human are at a lower state of development and unknowing like larger sexual attributes.

With this said, Dravin, maybe your suggestion is best. Perhaps I should start a new thread on this very topic in the adult section and see if a good, honest conversation can occur. I really do not mean to offend anyone and I would like the trivial distract of my posts to stop.

I will let this topic take its course and see if others think starting a new post and using this thread as the start is a good idea. But please be honest, if you have no interest – or have an interest -- just tell me so (either in this forum or via a private message). Gwen's last post suggests that such a topic could have some promise (for example, Gwen, I would agree with your thoughts in cromagnum period, but do you think there really are people today that would think this -- its been proven for over 50 years that breast size has nothinhg to do with fertility).

Do I now make more sense?

[Wingnut]

Do I now make more sense?

Nope.

[Jenamarie]

Dravin and others:

Let me try to make this more simple.

One of my main arguments at this site – in different posts – is that people (including LDS) unconsciously belief that having larger sexual attributes is superior (the bigger is better myth).

You're reading waaaaay more into people's posts than is actually there. I describe myself as "well endowed" on top, being a larger-breasted woman. I IN NO WAY believe, even unconsciously, that I am "superior" for my requiring a larger-than-average bra. I'm actually seriously considering getting a reduction after I'm done nursing my youngest, because they are, quiet literally, a pain in the neck (and I have my husband's blessing. he's not preoccupied with size either). I greatly envy smaller-chested women.

I use "well endowed" as a euphamism for "larger-than-average" and nothing more.

[pam]

I think you take the terms too literally. While some may say they are "blessed" it could be a euphemism for something else. Just because someone says they are blessed or well endowed doesn't always mean they are meaning that in a positive way or in superior tone.

Kind of like when someone says a girl has a "sweet spirit." They are really meaning she is lacking in the looks department.

Edited December 16, 2010 by pam

[MarginOfError]

Do I now make more sense?

Not really. But that's probably because you keep on bringing it up in threads where people are saying things like, "I have been blessed with a large bust and that's making it so hard to find modest clothing."

In other words, you are telling people they should be so vain about the body parts that are causing them problems?

[pam]

Perhaps we should start saying "we are cursed with a larger bust." But then we get accused of not being happy or thankful with the body we were provided with. You just can't win.

[Dravin]

To this end, can you provide other explanation for why someone might say “I have been blessed up top” or “my wife was blessed up top” when referring to women who are larger but that phrase and term is never used when a women is smaller up top? Can you provide a different explanation when someone says “My husband is well-endowed down there” instead of saying something like “my husband is larger down there” (this is an accurate description without the gifted aspects)

Yes, it is an established euphemism.

Why do you use up top or down there instead of genitalia/mammaries or sexual characteristics? Up can refer to heaven, down can refer to hell. By using down there you are suggesting that men are inherently devilish by virtue of their genitalia and women godly by virtue of their mammaries!

Or maybe you are using an established euphemism?

The thing is if you simply wanted to stop at saying the existence of the euphemism suggests the culture that produced it looks upon an ample bosom (oh no! another euphemism) as preferable very few would be disagreeing with you. It'd be like stating water is wet and people would raise an eyebrow, wonder why you are stating the obvious, and move on with life. However you insist on attaching nuances and trains of thoughts to people who use it, by virtue of them having used it, such as God favors\loves more those with larger breast.

Your presumption meets resistance.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Dravin

[Gwen]

Gwen's last post suggests that such a topic could have some promise (for example, Gwen, I would agree with your thoughts in cromagnum period, but do you think there really are people today that would think this -- its been proven for over 50 years that breast size has nothinhg to do with fertility).

i think you are beating a dead horse but... that myth that bigger breasts are better for nursing babies is very much alive and well. if you take any breast feeding class or read any literature on it they are still battling that idea. there are women told they need to supplement the baby with formula cause mom is to small and women criticized for not being able to nurse when they were very large.

[dash77]

Jenemarie and Dravin:

Assuming I understand both of you correctly, I hear both of you say that words such as “blessed” is nothing more than a euphemism. However, I see it as the opposite, I find words like “well-endowed” and “blessed” as offensive words because they associate larger sizes with gifts and favor and from a Christian perspective – these gifts and favors are from the Lord. I am assuming you are suggesting a euphemism is used to be less offensive.

Pam:

I have heard your explanation that I am taking these words too literally and that perhaps it’s just people not being thoughtful or reflective enough about the words they use.

In regard to you three, I think that all can be true. I am sure there are some that just use words fairly mindlessly and others who use such words as a euphemism. However, I think there still is a good number of people (more so than not) who use such words are expressions of deeper thought patterns (unconscious) that people do not like to admit they have. I think when it comes to sexuality, there is a strong pull to be primitive and act as the natural man would want us to act. So, I can agree with you somnewhat, perhaps in the middle.

Gwen:

I appreciate your honest thoughts. I also think your thoughts exemplify my argument. There are still women and men that actually think having larger breasts will secrete more milk. Although I am aware of research articles that disproves this, I have provided two web-links that communicate there is no correlation between size and milk production. It a cro-magnum myth that still exists today and has warped into a cro-magnum instinct in which there really are men and women who think having larger breasts is a sign of higher fertility and thus, greater femininity. The same myth occurs with men and sexual attributes that length can cause a greater change of pregnancy.

Does my breast size have anything to do with milk production? - Sharecare

Breastfeeding: Is there a correlation between breast size and milk production?? - iVillage

These are the myth, though, can cause great sociological and psychological damage because they teach women and men at a young age that size does indeed matter, which lays the seeds of sexual objectification and exploitation.

[MarginOfError]

Jenemarie and Dravin:

Assuming I understand both of you correctly, I hear both of you say that words such as “blessed” is nothing more than a euphemism. However, I see it as the opposite, I find words like “well-endowed” and “blessed” as offensive words because they associate larger sizes with gifts and favor and from a Christian perspective – these gifts and favors are from the Lord. I am assuming you are suggesting a euphemism is used to be less offensive.

:banghead:

Pam:

I have heard your explanation that I am taking these words too literally and that perhaps it’s just people not being thoughtful or reflective enough about the words they use.

In regard to you three, I think that all can be true. I am sure there are some that just use words fairly mindlessly and others who use such words as a euphemism. However, I think there still is a good number of people (more so than not) who use such words are expressions of deeper thought patterns (unconscious) that people do not like to admit they have. I think when it comes to sexuality, there is a strong pull to be primitive and act as the natural man would want us to act. So, I can agree with you somnewhat, perhaps in the middle.

I can only think of one person I've ever encountered who thinks this. He has an irritating habit of insisting that his interpretation can be the only correct interpretation.

[Wingnut]

I have heard your explanation that I am taking these words too literally and that perhaps it’s just people not being thoughtful or reflective enough about the words they use.

In regard to you three, I think that all can be true. I am sure there are some that just use words fairly mindlessly and others who use such words as a euphemism. However, I think there still is a good number of people (more so than not) who use such words are expressions of deeper thought patterns (unconscious) that people do not like to admit they have. I think when it comes to sexuality, there is a strong pull to be primitive and act as the natural man would want us to act. So, I can agree with you somnewhat, perhaps in the middle.

When everyone else tells you something, and you insist that they're in the wrong, it might be time to re-evaluate who is off-base.

Gwen:

I appreciate your honest thoughts. I also think your thoughts exemplify my argument. There are still women and men that actually think having larger breasts will secrete more milk. Although I am aware of research articles that disproves this, I have provided two web-links that communicate there is no correlation between size and milk production. It a cro-magnum myth that still exists today and has warped into a cro-magnum instinct in which there really are men and women who think having larger breasts is a sign of higher fertility and thus, greater femininity. The same myth occurs with men and sexual attributes that length can cause a greater change of pregnancy.

Does my breast size have anything to do with milk production? - Sharecare

Breastfeeding: Is there a correlation between breast size and milk production?? - iVillage

These are the myth, though, can cause great sociological and psychological damage because they teach women and men at a young age that size does indeed matter, which lays the seeds of sexual objectification and exploitation.

Gwen didn't say that larger breasts = better milk production. She referred to it as a myth, in fact:

i think you are beating a dead horse but... that myth that bigger breasts are better for nursing babies is very much alive and well. if you take any breast feeding class or read any literature on it they are still battling that idea. there are women told they need to supplement the baby with formula cause mom is to small and women criticized for not being able to nurse when they were very large.

Her point was that there are people who believe that, and it's deeply rooted in culture. You don't have to convince her that it's not scientifically accurate.

[Dravin]

However, I see it as the opposite

Did you want a cookie? You asked for an alternative you were given one. You still lack any evidence for in what sense people are using a phrase. Unless of course along with the title of arbiter of the meanings of words you were handed the title of psychic.

I find words like “well-endowed” and “blessed” as offensive words because they associate larger sizes with gifts and favor and from a Christian perspective – these gifts and favors are from the Lord.

That you find the words to be offensive does not mean they are intended offensively. And that you seem to think a word or phrase can only have one literal meaning does not mean the rest of us are so linguistically handicapped.

I am assuming you are suggesting a euphemism is used to be less offensive.

Do you even know what a euphemism is and why they are used? To this point I assumed you were being obstinate now it occurs to me you may just be ignorant, even if willfully so.

When everyone else tells you something, and you insist that they're in the wrong, it might be time to re-evaluate who is off-base.

The thing is that normally this kind of suggestion would fall under an argument from popularity (if you were asserting by virtue of popularity said position was correct, which you aren't) but he's debating with people about what they mean when they say something. He's telling me that if I refer to my girlfriend as well-endowed what I mean by it and that mine and others explanations of why we used the word and what we meant by it are incorrect.

I can only think of one person I've ever encountered who thinks this. He has an irritating habit of insisting that his interpretation can be the only correct interpretation.

I've seen moon hoaxers who demonstrate greater logical acumen.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Dravin

[dash77]

Dravin, please explain to me what you mean by the term euphoniums ,and how it applies to this topic? I thought you meant a substitution for an expression that may offensive. Please explain, because I am not understanding.

I think I may understand why there is a gap when I communicate and I think Margin of Errors head banging against brinks captures it well. I think most of you are looking for a single and simply explanation to the social topics I have brought up here. The famous child psychologist Jean Piaget called thinking that lump sums things together as concrete thinking (only someone with a concrete head could handle the banging against bricks). Thinking that can see diversity within groups Piaget refereed to formal thinking. Can it be that there can be multiple explanations? Is it so, that no one has these deeper unconscious motivations than are made visible through language? I do not think I have ever stated in this thread that my explanation is right and others are wrong. In my last post I believe I stated that there could be multiple explanations.

Wingnut, you might be right that I may have misinterpreted Gwen. I thought when she stated that “that myth that bigger breasts are better for nursing babies is very much alive and well” that she was supporting it. I did not read as you read it, that she was argueing that other still believe it but she did not.

[MarginOfError]

Dravin, please explain to me what you mean by the term euphoniums ,and how it applies to this topic? I thought you meant a substitution for an expression that may offensive. Please explain, because I am not understanding.

I think I may understand why there is a gap when I communicate and I think Margin of Errors head banging against brinks captures it well. I think most of you are looking for a single and simply explanation to the social topics I have brought up here. The famous child psychologist Jean Piaget called thinking that lump sums things together as concrete thinking (only someone with a concrete head could handle the banging against bricks). Thinking that can see diversity within groups Piaget refereed to formal thinking. Can it be that there can be multiple explanations? Is it so, that no one has these deeper unconscious motivations than are made visible through language? I do not think I have ever stated in this thread that my explanation is right and others are wrong. In my last post I believe I stated that there could be multiple explanations.

Wingnut, you might be right that I may have misinterpreted Gwen. I thought when she stated that “that myth that bigger breasts are better for nursing babies is very much alive and well” that she was supporting it. I did not read as you read it, that she was argueing that other still believe it but she did not.

Us: It's hard for well-endowed women to find modest shirts

Dash: You're implying that women that have large breasts are better than women with small breasts.

Us: No. We're not. We're saying it's harder to find modest shirts.

Dash: But you used the term "well-endowed," so you clearly think that women with large breasts received them as a gift from God.

Everyone else and their dog: I've never interpreted that phrase to mean that.

Us: See, I think it's pretty clear that we all understand "well-endowed" to be a socially appropriate way to say "big-breasted" in public.

Dash: I think your choice of words will cause people to believe that it's better to have large breasts.

Everyone else and their dog: None of us thought that

Us: You should stop focusing so much on literal definitions and understand the colloquial use.

Dash: I think your confusion comes from only allowing one definition of a term, when in fact there could be many. That's why some people will be offended if you continue to use the term "well-endowed" because they will think you mean it is better to have large breasts.

Again, I say :banghead:

Also, what of Harvard's endowment? Was that given to the university by God?

[Jenamarie]

I'm taking my dog home.

[ryanh]

Can it be that there can be multiple explanations? Is it so, that no one has these deeper unconscious motivations than are made visible through language?

Curious that you would bring such self-awareness topics into the foray, yet seemingly fail to grasp one's judgments of another, or assignment of meanings to their words or actions are often more a reflection of what one is, and how one perceives the world, than those judgments are of the reality of what was said or done.

In short, it would seem to me the reason you perceive preference and sexualization of larger body parts is precisely because that is the way you think of the subject. Other's words are filtered through your mental paradigm in order for you to conclude what it was they meant.

Not only that, but it is curious that the point would be so belabored in a public forum. Given the way I watch it play out, I see more going on that simply trying to contribute to public opinion/perception. Rather, it would seem the motivation is to vicariously carry out the battle in public that is occurring within your own mind.

Sometimes the things people post, and the way it is posted can be so incredibly telling of the inner turmoil and struggles. Curious.

[RipplecutBuddha]

I think the biggest door was opened when he {dash} claimed the phrase "well endowed" could be offensive.

Now, would someone {besides dash} please stand up and say they're honestly offended by the phrase "well endowed" when referring to the size of a woman's breasts? In all honesty, I cannot think of any person I've met in my life that is offended by that phrase to the point of verbally stating it at all, much less decrying it in public. I think this entire sidetrack is merely a manifestation of how silly the Politically Correct movement/ideology has become.

And, for the record, let me paraphrase what Brigham Young had to say about being offended:

When a man is offended and no offense is intended, that man is a fool.

When a man is offended and offense is intended, that man is also a fool.

When bitten by a rattlesnake, a man has two options from which to choose. Either chase after the creature and kill it to prevent it from biting others, or immediatly set about removing the deadly toxins from his body.

If he chooses the first option, he may not survive long enough to pursue the second.

Now, that was a rather pedantic way of stating it, but rather clear and poetic in my opinion. If it were me, especially regarding this subject, I'd just say it this way:

Women's breasts come in all sizes....deal with it. No matter what euphamisim is used to describe the larger side, you {dash} or others who think as you do, will find a way to make it a sexual issue, which it has never been. Let it go, get outside your home, and rejoin the rest of us in a place we call real life.

There are far more important issues to deal with as a society than this.

[Wingnut]

Let it go, get outside your home, and rejoin the rest of us in a place we call real life.

Love it!

[dash77]

Ryanh:

Your reply is the most common I hear when I try to underscore how sexual objectification is alive and well in mainstream life, including this website. By locating everything I say within myself, you have delimited responsibility for where it should be directed, namely, those people who continue to perpectuate a harmful societal myth – be it consciously or unconscious (but I guess no one has any conscious or unconscious problem related to this issue at this website – it is just me).

Dravin:

I honestly do not see how you are putting together euphemism related to this topic and am still waiting for you to provide an explanation. I’ve learned in life that it is much easier to pick apart others ideas, but building and explaining takes much more effort. Please explain your position with greater depth, breadth and clarity.

With this said, I think you (and others) are right – I need to drop this topic. I’ve tried to underscore its presence (in this post and others), and the sexual objectification is considered one of the biggest social/psychological issue directed towatd young women by many sociiologists and psychologists. But I think there is a miss-match between what I had hope for (mature and intellectual discussion about normative violence and sexual objectification ) and the motivation of most people at this site is different (social networking, fun joking around). There is simply a lack of integration of the two motivates and in no way am I suggesting that people at this website are not mature or intellectual – it just not a motivation while interacting on this site. So, even though I would like to hear your thoughts Dravin, I can let this subject go for once and for all.

[ryanh]

Ryanh:

Your reply is the most common I hear when I try to underscore how sexual objectification is alive and well in mainstream life, including this website.

If this is a common reply, even among devout LDS, then perhaps there is something wrong with the way the message is being shared. Perhaps it would be more effective to state your opinions rather than come right out insinuating that everyone using colloquial phrases has evil intent, or is simply serving an evil purpose. For many, using these colloquial phrases is a way of maintaining modest speech, not objectification. You would be better off using honey than vinegar to attract.

But I think there is a miss-match between what I had hope for (mature and intellectual discussion about normative violence and sexual objectification ) and the motivation of most people at this site is different (social networking, fun joking around). There is simply a lack of integration of the two motivates and in no way am I suggesting that people at this website are not mature or intellectual – it just not a motivation while interacting on this site.

See, this is a case in point. You may throw a disclaimer on the end there, but that doesn't matter. You effectively alienated honest readers with the first 2/3rds of the paragraph. After metaphorically kicking sand into their eyes, do you honestly think ‘non-socially-driven’ readers will even give any weight to your attempt at a disclaimer? The breakdown in attempting to have a mature and intellectual conversation may not begin with “most people” in the case of this thread.

“Maturity begins when we're content to feel we're right about something without feeling the necessity to prove someone else wrong.” Sydney J. Harris

[Dravin]

Dravin:

I honestly do not see how you are putting together euphemism related to this topic and am still waiting for you to provide an explanation. I’ve learned in life that it is much easier to pick apart others ideas, but building and explaining takes much more effort. Please explain your position with greater depth, breadth and clarity.

A euphemism is a figure of speech intended to change the 'offensiveness' register of a word, either up or down. The key here is that it is a figure of speech, so your literal deconstruction of a euphemism is asinine. For example the masturbation euphemism I hinted at earlier. Do you suggest that we should interpret someone using the euphemism to choke the chicken is out to kill poultry? Should we discuss how they are implying that killing animals is pleasurable? No, because the person using the figure of speech is not trying to imply any such thing.

And once we move past that we have your issue of claiming there is only one meaning/sense for someone using the words endowed or blessed. As pointed out there are financial endowments and even an atheist can feel blessed by an experience. Then on top of that we have the issue of that even if someone did mean to say they were blessed in a literal sense by God you can't assume they mean that others by virtue of their blessing others are not blessed. If I say I am blessed by goodly parents am I saying everyone else's parents aren't a blessing? Should we start being offended by those blessed with musical talent?

So while you can say that some may use the euphemism in a literal sense and they mean endowed/blessed in your literal favored/loved by God sense and they mean to suggest that others not sharing their physical attributes are devoid of that favor/love you cannot take the usage of the euphemism and ascribe motives to any one individual based on the usage. And decrying how it's offensive because using the euphemism magically meets the three conditions (because you say it does) for anything even hinting at the offensive meaning is ridiculous.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Dravin

[Suzie]

Nah...not another "breast" discussion!

[Dravin]

Nah...not another "breast" discussion!

I know. I daresay I've offered my final comment on the topic for this thread. And probably any thread for a while.

[Suzie]

I know. I daresay I've offered my final comment on the topic for this thread. And probably any thread for a while.

I hope I didn't offend you with my comment. If I did, I apologize. I just thought it was funny that we were discussing (once again) breasts. It doesn't bother me in the least, I just found it amusing because in the other one we had a similar issue.