Getting Sealed in a few weeks...Red Flags

[SwordofLaban]

Brothers and Sisters I am getting married in a few weeks...and I am terrified.

My fiance and I are set to be sealed together in the Temple in about 3 weeks. However, both of us are miserable. Now don't get me wrong, we aren't miserable with each other per say, but my deteriorating relationship with her parents (and her emotional, and decision-making dependance on her parents) are causing us great problems.

You see, she comes from a part-member family (her dad being very open about his disapproval of the Church) and her mother is inactive. Of course, we have been getting backlash from her parents about the Temple...but it goes farther then that. Her father thinks that the Church and I are trying to control every aspect of her life...and has go so far as to tell me that he is not happy that I am entering into his family.

I am worried about our relationship. My fiance still seeks out her parents' approval for virtually everything, in fact I feel that in many ways she puts her parents' input over mine when we make decisions in regards to our marriage. Going further, she seems to always express to them and seek comfort from them when we have disagreements; which in turn creates even more resentment of me by them.

I am worried what this means for our future family. Are these red flags that I should heed? I am currently seeking advice from our Bishop but would like to her from others as well. I do not feel like I can talk to many people about this...I have been told by my fiance's father that I am not to talk to her about this because it will only upset her and that if I upset her I will be visited by him in the middle of the night. However, I have talked to her about this but we haven't come to any real conclusion.

Any advice would be appreciated. I am completely miserable right now.

[ryanh]

Have you fasted and prayed for guidance? That is conspicuously absent in your post. :)

Wow, that is a tough situation!!! I don't envy you at all. Seems to me that two things could be going on.

1) This is just a terrible situation to be getting into.

or

2) The advesary is working double time on you, your fiance, and her father to keep the union from happening.

I'm leaning towards #1 based on the very little I know. A FIL that is willing to make threats of physical harm is a huge red flag! (promptings from the adversary or not, the willingness to make threats says a lot about where he is mentally/emotionally) That he can't let his daughter have her own life, that he wants to control what you and she discuss, and that she is allowing herself to be controlled by that rather than rejecting it, is some really serious dysfunctionality that will likely impact your marriage in very negative ways.

My ex had a hard time completely severing the ties to her parents and cleaving unto one another. It wasn't nearly as bad as you portrayed your situation, yet, it caused significant harm in my marriage. Don't underestimate how destructive such a dynamic can be.

Is your fiance willing to "[her] father and [her] mother, and shall cleave unto [her husband]"? And, if she is willing to, is she capable of doing so? Breaking out of a controlling and abusive situation as it would seem she grew up in can be very hard to do.

How long have you two dated and been engaged? I say that unless you get a prompting to move forward, you seriously consider postponing marriage until all this can be sorted out. More time is rarely a bad idea. Moving forward when there are serious doubts is a recipe for trouble.

[Maya]

A young girl and a young man around here fell in love but the dad of the girl did not allow her to marry him. She is still after many years a single. He died a little while ago. Her father was a non member.

I think best would be to get married and to get work from far away and move.

She needs to mark aline for her parents which they are not welcome to cross.

[rameumptom]

When a couple marries, they need to make their own choices, and not be run by either set of in-laws. You need to sit down with your fiancee, and the two of you make the decision now to counsel together, without outside influences, on how your lives will be. If she can't do that, then she isn't really ready to marry. It would be better to put the wedding off a while, if she isn't ready to cut the apron strings.

After money, few things tear apart a marriage like meddling in-laws. It recently happened to a nephew of mine. You need to be kind to her parents, but she needs to fully agree that you will come before her parents, if the marriage is going to go through.

• Mark 10:7

  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;8And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9What therefore God hath ajoined together, let not man put basunder.

• Moses 3:24

  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh.

• Genesis 2:24

  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

• Ephesians 5:31

  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Here we clearly see that both man and woman must leave their parents. Otherwise, they cannot become one flesh, or be unified and harmonious. And for some couples, that may mean moving far off so the parents cannot meddle. Is she willing to do that if her father continues in this vein? If not, then she isn't ready for marriage, as she is choosing her father and his demands over becoming one with you.

[Backroads]

Now I think there is a difference between a parent giving insight and personal take on a relationship about whether they approve/disprove, but that doesn't mean an adult child has to obey. It's also not ideal to make her completely cut off any and all ties to her family if she is that close to him. But boundaries need to be made. I like the idea of moving further away, if possible.

[MrShorty]

Have you considered premarital counseling? As Rameumptom said, issues with in-laws can be pretty damaging to a marriage.

[SwordofLaban]

Thank you everyone for your responses thus far. I have fasted and pray about this often. In fact, the great comfort I am given by the Spirit is the only real thing that is sustaining me right now.

My fiance does not want to move away, due to her parental attachments, nor do I think that would solve anything. She needs to "move away" in a sense from the mindset and the scenario of abuse that is occuring...but I do not think that deals much with geography. She needs to come and recognize the system of abuse that she has been brought up in, and reject it. This most likely would fully entail her drawing those boundaries with her parents and telling them like it is. I can confidently say, though, that she is unwilling to do that at this time.

I am in agreeance with most of what has been stated here.

However, I am a firm believer that the Atonement can do anything.

Right now I am considering postponing the marriage to allow more time for her to address these underlying issues...during which I could possibly serve a mission.

More feedback, however, is greatly encouraged and appreciated.

[Backroads]

Thank you everyone for your responses thus far. I have fasted and pray about this often. In fact, the great comfort I am given by the Spirit is the only real thing that is sustaining me right now.

My fiance does not want to move away, due to her parental attachments, nor do I think that would solve anything. She needs to "move away" in a sense from the mindset and the scenario of abuse that is occuring...but I do not think that deals much with geography. She needs to come and recognize the system of abuse that she has been brought up in, and reject it. This most likely would fully entail her drawing those boundaries with her parents and telling them like it is. I can confidently say, though, that she is unwilling to do that at this time.

I am in agreeance with most of what has been stated here.

However, I am a firm believer that the Atonement can do anything.

Right now I am considering postponing the marriage to allow more time for her to address these underlying issues...during which I could possibly serve a mission.

More feedback, however, is greatly encouraged and appreciated.

Postponing the marriage could possibly be a good idea. There is nothing healthy about forcing a marriage that doesn't feel right.

[SwordofLaban]

Have you considered premarital counseling? As Rameumptom said, issues with in-laws can be pretty damaging to a marriage.

We have completed premarital counseling. This issue was addressed...however it obviously hasn't been resolved.

[MarginOfError]

On the one hand, it's common for engagements to get more stressful as the wedding day approaches. On the other hand, if her parents' advice and discussion carries more weight than your own, then you're marriage is going to be overshadowed by your in-laws.

I can tell you now, a marriage is going to be really tough if your in-laws don't trust you to manage your relationship. It will be even harder if your spouse relies on her parents to manage her relationship more than she relies on you. If you don't get this sorted out, I'd be very hesitant to go through with the wedding.

[Guest]

Woooo... VERY VERY RED FLAG.

Remember, the saying - "I'm marrying the girl, not her family"? That only works if the girl counts herself independent of the family. For example, my husband and I eloped because my dad would have shot my husband before allowing me to marry him (ok, so it's a bit of an exaggeration, but it sure feels that way). But, my husband knows for a fact that, even though it is very difficult, I will defy my father to put my husband first in my life. My father does not make the decisions in our house. Even when he lived with us for a bit (common Filipino trait). When my husband and I fight, I don't run to my father/mother/brother/sister. As a matter of fact, if my family gets wind of us fighting, they always side with my husband (they know my weaknesses).

I have a friend who had this same EXACT situation before he married the girl. I adviced him to be very sure that his wife is strong enough to separate herself from her family. He thought it's not going to be a problem because her parents are half-way around the world (in Iran) and her sister is in Chicago (he is in Florida). They got married in Iran, then she moved in with him in Florida 2 weeks later. The girl is calling her parents and her sister every single day. And the phone bill was getting ridiculous. So he told her to limit their conversations. And she got very upset. So tension started in the marriage - and the more tense it got, the more she's calling her sister/mother.

Then the parents came to visit for a few months and they complained day in and day out how terrible their living conditions are - he is going to school for his PhD while working part-time so he feels they should wait until he graduates before buying a house - so they're living on campus. Every single day the parents are complaining about how "poor" they are and how they should be like her sister (who are rich). They talk bad about him in the 3rd person while he is right there in the room with them! He tells his wife she needs to do something about it and guess what she said - "They have a point, you know."

Needless to say, the marriage only lasted 18 months.

Edited December 16, 2010 by anatess

[slamjet]

We have completed premarital counseling. This issue was addressed...however it obviously hasn't been resolved.

And there you go. It sounds like the parents are also having difficulty letting go (or they refuse to). I had the same issue with my ex and it never really worked itself out. Even now, my now ex in-laws are meddling between my ex, me and my children (for which all are afraid of going to far because they are afraid of what I would do). Make sure it is resolved before going into the marriage and please, delay it. There's nothing worse than jumping in before either one of you are ready.

When you have a person who has never moved in their life, or has ever lived outside their home, then these separation issues will come up.

What happens if you're work moves, or you find a better job elsewhere? Or after you have kids? Because believe me, after children, all issues are magnified.

Get all these issues out in the open and deal with them. If you don't, your marriage has an exponentially more chance of failing.

Edited December 16, 2010 by slamjet

[NeuroTypical]

her emotional, and decision-making dependance on her parents

...

her dad being very open about his disapproval of the Church

...

we have been getting backlash from her parents about the Temple

...

Her father thinks that the Church and I are trying to control every aspect of her life...and has go so far as to tell me that he is not happy that I am entering into his family.

...

I feel that in many ways she puts her parents' input over mine when we make decisions in regards to our marriage. Going further, she seems to always express to them and seek comfort from them when we have disagreements; which in turn creates even more resentment of me by them.

...

I have been told by my fiance's father that I am not to talk to her about this because it will only upset her and that if I upset her I will be visited by him in the middle of the night.

Everyone has issues. Speaking very practically: You are going into this relationship with your eyes open. You see the issues you are marrying into. You're fortunate, a lot of people have serious issues spring up after marriage.

So, your relationship with your wife, and your inlaws, and her relationship with her parents, are what they are. You are not first and foremost her husband, you're first and foremost the guy who married their daughter. You won't be the head of the house, her dad will. Things may or may not change in the future, but you can be pretty certain they won't be changing any time soon. So, if you're willing to live with this reality and hope for a better future, then marry her. If you're not, break it off.

You don't get to marry her, and then gripe about these issues. If you marry her, you are accepting them and promising to live with them.

My crystal ball sees four possibilities if you marry her:

1- Her parents figure out life isn't so bad, and back off. She grows to a more healthy distance from them. Everyone learns how to get along, and life is eventually good.

2- You and your wife have a long series of knock-down drag out fights with her parents, resulting in all sorts of bitterness and raw wounds (and maybe black eyes and jail time) that take a long time to heal. But you and your wife grow together and life is eventually good.

3- You accept your role as "that mormon [expletive] my daughter married" and spend a lot of energy walking on eggshells and not making waves. You stay together.

4- Your marriage fails.

If the spirit is telling you to marry her, then go for it. But be aware of the realities of the situation.

LM

Edited December 16, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[ryanh]

Right now I am considering postponing the marriage to allow more time for her to address these underlying issues...during which I could possibly serve a mission.

Serve a mission young man!!! You will never go wrong with that decision. And if you two are right for each other, you will be so much the better off and ready to marry when you get back.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I agree with MarginOfError. Also, don't go into the marriage relying on your spouse changing.

They don't usually, in my experience, or if they do, it may take decades and you'll end up with an entire acre of grey hairs trying to get the relationship where it needs to be for your peace and happiness. Who you marry is one of the most important decisions for preserving peace and happiness, and if this is bothering you this much...then you may have to make the chips fall and withdraw until your bride places her loyalty to your marriage FIRST.

What really bothers me is that your wife is on-side with her parents meddling. If she wasn't, this would be different, but she has not yet learned that her decision-making should be heavily weighted toward YOU, and no longer her parents. The threat from your father-in-law to show up in the middle of the night is also a deep, deep concern for me -- that he's trying to mandate what you talk about in your relationship -- totally inappropriate. As Loudmouth says, he'll be the head of the house, not you. Terrible situation. Avoid it.

It also bothers me you've ALREADY been to counseling about this, and you're not even wedded yet. Another HUGE red flag.

Personally, I think that if you made the decision to keep looking, and told your intended spouse that the wedding is off, or postponed because you don't see the kind of loyalty to your relationship, this might be a wake-up call for her. I would consider it, recognizing that any changes may well be temporary until she gets the ring on your finger. I think starting over with someone else is better.

Also, her family's attitudes toward the Church may well wear on her relationship with the Church given the power they currently exert over her.

Now, I know this is harsh advice -- to give it up. You may have made announcements and are emotionally invested in her, and love her, and the prospect of finding someone else might be hard to face. But if I could do it all over again, I WOULD PAY DEEP, CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE RED FLAGS. This is a valid red flag that may well sap away lots of love in our marriage when you are committed to it for the rest of your life.

Last of all, recognize that your Bishop may not give you solid advice one way or the other. I found when I was getting married and talked about red flags, no one was willing to give me advice one way or the other. They all played neutral. In America (if that's where you're from), it's like it's really up to the individual and people don't want to get involved.

Personally, if I was in your shoes, I'd keep looking, even though it's hard. These in-laws are likely going to be directing your relationship until they pass on to the next world, and it will bother you, and hurt your relationship. Wouldn't it feel much better to be with someone you can trust not to take every little conflict to her parents, who holds your opinion above the opinion of her parents, and who sees you as an equal partner in your relationship, not second fiddle to her parents? And wouldn't it be nice to go over to your in-laws and feel totally accepted and respected by them? I have that and its nice. They think my wife married a good man and they like me. It counts for a lot.

Edited December 16, 2010 by mormonmusic

[SwordofLaban]

Thank you everyone for your continual insights...

This obviously is a hard task to deal with that will take a rather considerable amount of time.

I do not think she will wait for me if I go on a mission (since didn't wait for her ex who went on a mission) and do now know how feasible that is for me to do right now. Excluding mission costs (which my Bishop has told me members of our Ward would contribute) my fiance and I just signed a year lease for the apartment we were planning on sharing in a few weeks...I am also a college student.

If we do not get married I definitely do want to serve on a mission...but do not know how feasible that is. I just don't want to be setting myself up for failure either way.

[SwordofLaban]

I agree with MarginOfError. Also, don't go into the marriage relying on your spouse changing.

They don't usually, in my experience, or if they do, it may take decades and you'll end up with an entire acre of grey hairs trying to get the relationship where it needs to be for your peace and happiness. Who you marry is one of the most important decisions for preserving peace and happiness, and if this is bothering you this much...then you may have to make the chips fall and withdraw until your bride places her loyalty to your marriage FIRST.

What really bothers me is that your wife is on-side with her parents meddling. If she wasn't, this would be different, but she has not yet learned that her decision-making should be heavily weighted toward YOU, and no longer her parents. The threat from your father-in-law to show up in the middle of the night is also a deep, deep concern for me -- that he's trying to mandate what you talk about in your relationship -- totally inappropriate. As Loudmouth says, he'll be the head of the house, not you. Terrible situation. Avoid it.

It also bothers me you've ALREADY been to counseling about this, and you're not even wedded yet. Another HUGE red flag.

Personally, I think that if you made the decision to keep looking, and told your intended spouse that the wedding is off, or postponed because you don't see the kind of loyalty to your relationship, this might be a wake-up call for her. I would consider it, recognizing that any changes may well be temporary until she gets the ring on your finger. I think starting over with someone else is better.

Also, her family's attitudes toward the Church may well wear on her relationship with the Church given the power they currently exert over her.

Now, I know this is harsh advice -- to give it up. You may have made announcements and are emotionally invested in her, and love her, and the prospect of finding someone else might be hard to face. But if I could do it all over again, I WOULD PAY DEEP, CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE RED FLAGS. This is a valid red flag that may well sap away lots of love in our marriage when you are committed to it for the rest of your life.

Last of all, recognize that your Bishop may not give you solid advice one way or the other. I found when I was getting married and talked about red flags, no one was willing to give me advice one way or the other. They all played neutral. In America (if that's where you're from), it's like it's really up to the individual and people don't want to get involved.

Personally, if I was in your shoes, I'd keep looking, even though it's hard. These in-laws are likely going to be directing your relationship until they pass on to the next world, and it will bother you, and hurt your relationship. Wouldn't it feel much better to be with someone you can trust not to take every little conflict to her parents, who holds your opinion above the opinion of her parents, and who sees you as an equal partner in your relationship, not second fiddle to her parents? And wouldn't it be nice to go over to your in-laws and feel totally accepted and respected by them? I have that and its nice. They think my wife married a good man and they like me. It counts for a lot.

I apologize for the double post, and the long quote, but I just read your insights, mormonmusic, and appreciate your honesty. I greatly value those that are willing to not pull any punches. More brutally honest feedback is accepted and appreciated. The truth is always the best...as brutal as it may be.

Granted, I do not know if I will go this route yet...as it is very painful...

[Guest mormonmusic]

Thank you everyone for your continual insights...

This obviously is a hard task to deal with that will take a rather considerable amount of time.

I do not think she will wait for me if I go on a mission (since didn't wait for her ex who went on a mission) and do now know how feasible that is for me to do right now. Excluding mission costs (which my Bishop has told me members of our Ward would contribute) my fiance and I just signed a year lease for the apartment we were planning on sharing in a few weeks...I am also a college student.

If we do not get married I definitely do want to serve on a mission...but do not know how feasible that is. I just don't want to be setting myself up for failure either way.

See if you can assign the lease to someone else, or sublet it. You can always return to school later. But all that is secondary to settling this relationship issue first. I say serve the mission. I did it when I had someone at home who wanted to marry me and it was the best thing.

Edited December 16, 2010 by mormonmusic

[Guest mormonmusic]

I apologize for the double post, and the long quote, but I just read your insights, mormonmusic, and appreciate your honesty. I greatly value those that are willing to not pull any punches. More brutally honest feedback is accepted and appreciated. The truth is always the best...as brutal as it may be.

Granted, I do not know if I will go this route yet...as it is very painful...

Yes, it will be painful. However, it will die when you meet someone who doesn't sap love from your relationship with decades of independent behavior driven by her parent's opinions.

Also, I gave up someone I loved. I had two women to marry and I loved both. I chose one, and then the relationship died with her, and my first love moved on and got married. I always regretted not marrying my love #1. Then, I met her recently and was TOTALLY THRILLED I didn't marry her either. You will get over it, and there will be someone else.

But do what you think best -- this is the best I can give as someone who saw red flags and ignored them because I couldn't face the pain of the break-up and the continued search for a mate, plus the even further delay in experiencing the physical blessings of marriage. But I regret that decision now -- I truly do given what it's taken to get me to the point I'm reasonably happy in my marriage. It took decades of work and mountains of suffering -- better to marry someone with whom the important variables are all in place from the get-go.

In your case, one important variable is not present, and it will probably screw things up for you.

[Guest]

SwordofLaban - I walked out on my wedding to a boyfriend of 6 years, 1 week before the ceremony. Yep. Spent lots of money on a dress, reception, flowers, catering, invitations, etc. etc. most of which are non-refundable. My parents spent money to fly half-way around the world to the USA to attend, tons of uncles, cousins, friends already took vacation from work etc... it was a mess. And it hurt terribly. I loved that guy. We were together for 2 more years and eventually broke it off. It wasn't working out.

But, that kind of hurt is nothing compared to an unhappy marriage and possibly a divorce. I will guarantee you that.

And if I didn't break it off, I wouldn't have met my husband now...

[NeuroTypical]

I chose one, and then the relationship died with her, and my first love moved on and got married. I always regretted not marrying my love #1. Then, I met her recently and was TOTALLY THRILLED I didn't marry her either.

Oh man! This needs to be turned into a Lifetime TV miniseries, or be someone's .sig line, or shouted from a mountain top. Or at least put on a bumper sticker.

This is why I showed up to my patriarchical blessing with an engagement ring in my hand, begging God to give me a straight direct unambiguous answer. Such choices are too weighty for me.

LM

(13+ years and 2 kids)

[slamjet]

This obviously is a hard task to deal with that will take a rather considerable amount of time.

I do not think she will wait for me if I go on a mission (since didn't wait for her ex who went on a mission) and do now know how feasible that is for me to do right now. Excluding mission costs (which my Bishop has told me members of our Ward would contribute) my fiance and I just signed a year lease for the apartment we were planning on sharing in a few weeks...I am also a college student.

If we do not get married I definitely do want to serve on a mission...but do not know how feasible that is. I just don't want to be setting myself up for failure either way.

This sounds like you want it all without having to choose anything. You need to figure out what is more important to you. Let me assure you, that she is not the only one out there for you. Let me assure you that choosing marriage over mission would be something you may regret latter on down the road.

If you want someone to tell you what to do, then allow me: get out of the lease, dump her and take care of your priesthood responsibility and while you are doing all that, grow up.

You already know what to do, you already know what is the right thing to do, you already know what you want to do. So be an adult, make a decision and stick with it.

[SwordofLaban]

Thanks, once again, everyone for their input. I have a lot to think about and pray about. Does anyone think that her willingness to seek out counseling does anything to change the result? I mean...it is good that she is wanting to do that but is it too little too late?

[Guest mormonmusic]

I think her desire for counselling is good -- but again, if you're not even married and seeking counselling, I stay start over with someone else -- someone with whom all the important variables come together relatively easily.

I don't know if you saw that movie "Under the Tuscany Sun" with Diane Lane. It's kind of a women's flick, but there was a scene where Diane Lane had a lover, and it never worked out for them to get together. She finally showed up unexpectedly and found he'd taken up with another woman. He replied that he loved her, but that "the relationship has to flow". Essential advice for a couple planning to get married. It has to flow.

Right now, it's not flowing my friend -- counselling to fix large problems before marriage -- I wouldn't touch the relationship with a 10 foot pole from this objective view.

[ryanh]

Counseling doesn't change a person. Willingness to go to counseling doesn't really cut it. Counseling only helps a person change if they want to change themselves. She has to want to change the dynamics with her parental relationship.