Pre-marital issues/advice?

[Backroads]

So I am engaged to be married, have been so for a little over a month. We have been dating since May. He's a very good man, and has been married once before. We will be getting married in the temple.

Now... this is pretty much since last night when we got into a fight. Now I'm having either the normal jitters and nerves, or serious doubt. The fight was over how much time we spent together and how I didn't seem especially affectionate last night. It leaves me wondering just how committed I am to this relationship. We've made up, but I'm still feeling very weird about the relationship.

Some background: I suffer from mild social anxiety disorder. I'm an extremely independent person, and I can get on fine on my own--I don't need to be around people constantly and am perfectly happy being by myself. I also do have troubles expressing my feelings.

So I do think a lot of it is me being terrified of marriage, wondering if this really is the right guy.

Are there are warning signs I should look for? Any things I should notice as good?

[Guest mormonmusic]

Backroads -- some people have what is called a need for "Recreational Companionship" -- meaning, they like to spend time with each other doing fun things. Your spouse may have that need. You need to spend more time in the relationship with him to determine if this is a recurring issue. If he expects more time that you naturally want to give, it will be a constant eyesore in your marriage. He may well be at you about this for decades.

I have provided a post I made earlier (I couldn't figure out how to link to it) that provides a two stage-formula for how to select a marrage partner. I suggest you look hard at it if you are having doubts. Here is the first stage:

I think most people are ill-prepared to select a mate -- at least, I was.

Here are the steps I recommend after facing the school of hard knocks and realizing I made a less-than-stellar decision about who to marry:

a) Don't try to change yourself. Instead, Find out YOUR EMOTIONAL NEEDS. Find out your top three needs, which will tend to be from this list below (although there a certainly others not on this list). Find them out by watching for their emergence in your dating relationship, and what makes sense to you. You can also find your assumptions about married life by looking at how your Mom and Dad (if you were raised in a nuclear family) interacted and who did what in your household. This might help you pick your top three from this list.

Physically Attractive Spouse

Conversation

Affection

Recreational Companionship

Financial Support

Admiration

Family Commitment (helps with rearing the family)

Domestic Support (help with housework and jobs around the house)

Sexual Fulfillment

Honesty and Openness

(I will add another -- Same Religion)

b) Find out whether your intended spouse NATURALLY meets your needs, without having to change. Some will be hard to judge, like sexual fulfillment if you are committed to the law of Chastity like most LDS people before marriage, although you can talk about it beforehand and get some idea. The others -- look at the habits of your spouse as they live their lives, how things worked in their natural family, and spend a lot of time with them with their natural family. You will get an idea of how well they are likely to meet your needs.

c) If there is a mismatch between you needs, and the needs you spouse meets naturally, without changing, keep looking for a different spouse. It might hurt because you might like certain things about your spouse that aren't on the list, but trust me, certain things have no lasting impact when your needs go unmet for a long time.

I will post the second half of the equation below -- determining how well you meet the needs of your intended spouse naturally, without changing.

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[Guest mormonmusic]

The second phase of this approach to selecting a marriage partner is below:

The second half of the equation is to find out how well you meet the needs of your intended spouse, by simply being who you are. Do this:

1. Identify their top 3 needs from the list above. You can find them out by watching his or her family, seeing the roles their mother or father take in his family, as well as their socio-economic lifestyle. Speak explicitly about his or her expectations of you when married using the list above as a guide. Really look hard at the things you do that upset him or her during dating. Talk openly about sex and determine their level of interest. Boil this all down to his or her top 3 needs.

2. Assess how well you naturally meet those needs, without changing yourself. Again, look at you family life, you natural desires, your interest in things that are truly important to him or her. Try not to be "seduced" by charimatic parts of their personality or an over-emphasis on their ability to meet one of your needs, like good looks, wealth, etcetera.

3. If there is a strong mismatch between his needs, and your natural interest or skills in meeting them, then look for a different spouse.

Believe me, if you want a successful marriage, you will have many decades with the person. And it will be a huge grind when that person is always at you about things he or she wants you to do, that you have no desire to do. You might do them for a while for the sake of your marriage, but then resent it, hate it, etcetera, and its best to find the best match possible with your needs and your spouse's needs. Their charismatic personality or ability to make you laugh may well fade in comparison to the grind of conflict unmet needs can create. Trust me -- I've been there.

My source is based on the ideas here Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice which are focused on already-married couples. However, I think what I've written is a fair adaptation to people seeking a spouse.

By the way, I have a marriage that ranges between a 7 and a 9 after figuring out what makes it tick. I'm OK with it now, but I have to confess, for well over a decade it was absolute torment. I wish I had known the pattern for choosing a mate above when I was looking for a marriage partner, but no one could tell me....

__________________

[Backroads]

Oh, I'm definitly for spending time with him, but with our schedules it's difficult, and he's bothered that it doesn't bug me as much as it bugs him.

[Wingnut]

Not wanting to be physically affectionate is a pretty normal byproduct of the emotions that come with a big fight. I wouldn't read too much into that in and of itself. If there is more going on besides that, then maybe you should take a closer look at things.

[NeuroTypical]

he's bothered that it doesn't bug me as much as it bugs him.

Something every married couple needs to learn - you don't always value the same things and give/recieve love the same ways. If you haven't done it already, grab a copy of the Five Love Languages - it could avoid a lot of grief and bumps down the normal marriage learning curve.

We're all big on appreciating the differences, and understanding that men and woman are not the same and all that. Until we spend five hours pouring our soul into the most meaningful expression of love we've ever produced, and then our spouse doesn't even bother to notice. This happens - and it's not because our spouse is wrong. You both need to learn how each of you express and want to recieve love.

LM

[Guest]

If that's the only thing you have a conflict over - then you don't know him that well nor he you yet.

Marriage is when you know exactly who the guy is - completely, inside and out, including his bad and his good and the ones that bug you and the ones that bug him - and you decide yes, you can live with that for the rest of your life.

[Backroads]

Thanks, everyone. There's also this matter that we've only been dating since May. I've dated lots of guys before and never had the desire or interest to get involved with someone as deeply as I have here. And this morning I'm suddenly panicking if he is the right guy or not. Logically, everything about him is great. I've been examining some of my nitpicky issues with him over the past few weeks and have decided I'm good with those: He swears a little, but not every other word and the fact is he was raised on a ranch and is a military man. He's opinionated--again, he's a very politically conservative ranch boy and I'm very good at rolling my eyes and nodding at things if they aren't big deals. He's a little more churchy than I am, which I think will be great for me.

I'm terrible with change, and I'm wondering/hoping if that's part of what I'm feeling today.

So what are some bad/good signs I should be looking for?

And please, feel free to treat me as naive as you would like. I need it.

[Gwen]

less than a yr of dating and he's been married before?... i would suggest pre marriage counseling before you move forward.

[NeuroTypical]

he was raised on a ranch and is a military man.

Active duty or retired? Now, I didn't marry active military, but I've talked to people who have, and they all tell me the same thing. It stinks. It's hard. It sucks to be married to military. You endure long periods of lonliness, and there is a lot of change as you move around. You spend a lot of time away from each other. This really, really, really stinks when the kids arrive. Spouses of active military tell me they band together whenever they find each other, which is nice, but not always possible. The divorce rate in the military is far higher than for civilians.

The men and women who put themselves in harm's way for our country, REQUIRE a stronger spouse than most marriages. Otherwise the marriage fails. Can you learn to be stronger than most women? Can you learn to run a household while your man is deployed half a world away, and then step aside to share the leadership role when he comes home?

There are many sucessful military marriages with spouses deeply committed to each other. There are blessings in being married to military that I will never have. But dang - it's hard. If you're up for the challenge, then go for it. Be one of the sucessful stories. And it will be your choice to make it work or not.

LM

(If he did his tour and is out of the military, you can disregard this entire post.)

Edited December 16, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Backroads]

Oh, I'm all about pre-marital counseling even when things are good. He's a little iffy, because he had counseling during his first marriage and it still ended in divorce.

He... just started his military career. When we were dating, he thought my independent streak would make me a perfect military wife, and I still think it would.

I do love this guy. I guess I feel paranoid and wonder what i should look for.

Thank-you so much everyone.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Thanks, everyone. There's also this matter that we've only been dating since May. I've dated lots of guys before and never had the desire or interest to get involved with someone as deeply as I have here. And this morning I'm suddenly panicking if he is the right guy or not. Logically, everything about him is great. I've been examining some of my nitpicky issues with him over the past few weeks and have decided I'm good with those: He swears a little, but not every other word and the fact is he was raised on a ranch and is a military man. He's opinionated--again, he's a very politically conservative ranch boy and I'm very good at rolling my eyes and nodding at things if they aren't big deals. He's a little more churchy than I am, which I think will be great for me.

I'm terrible with change, and I'm wondering/hoping if that's part of what I'm feeling today.

So what are some bad/good signs I should be looking for?

And please, feel free to treat me as naive as you would like. I need it.

Backroads -- you seem to have caught the "spend a lot of time with him" part of what I said above. But have you figured out what your most important emotional needs are? If so, what are they? How does he go about meeting them?

Also, what are his most important emotional needs? We've uncovered one -- he likes recreational companionship with you -- anything else? And how important is that need in the list? Also, how much time have you spent with his family -- and have you explored why his previous marriage didn't work? This might help you understand his unmet needs (or the needs he didn't meet, naturally, in his former spouse).

It sounds to me you have a bit more work to do -- these needs above are the ones that tend to emerge after the fun and romance and dating period is over, and life sets in during marriage, so I'd take a hard look at them -- you don't appear to have done that.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Thanks, everyone. There's also this matter that we've only been dating since May. I've dated lots of guys before and never had the desire or interest to get involved with someone as deeply as I have here. And this morning I'm suddenly panicking if he is the right guy or not. Logically, everything about him is great. I've been examining some of my nitpicky issues with him over the past few weeks and have decided I'm good with those: He swears a little, but not every other word and the fact is he was raised on a ranch and is a military man. He's opinionated--again, he's a very politically conservative ranch boy and I'm very good at rolling my eyes and nodding at things if they aren't big deals. He's a little more churchy than I am, which I think will be great for me.

I'm terrible with change, and I'm wondering/hoping if that's part of what I'm feeling today.

So what are some bad/good signs I should be looking for?

And please, feel free to treat me as naive as you would like. I need it.

Backroads -- you seem to have caught the "spend a lot of time with him" part of what I said above. But have you figured out what your most important emotional needs are? If so, what are they? How does he go about meeting them?

Also, what are his most important emotional needs? We've uncovered one -- he likes recreational companionship with you -- anything else? And how important is that need in the list? Also, how much time have you spent with his family -- and have you explored why his previous marriage didn't work? This might help you understand his unmet needs (or the needs he didn't meet, naturally, in his former spouse).

It sounds to me you have a bit more work to do -- these needs above are the ones that tend to emerge after the fun and romance and dating period is over, and life sets in during marriage, so I'd take a hard look at them -- you don't appear to have done that.

The school of hard knocks and 17 years or marriage, as well as listening to the woes of my friends have convinced me these are important things to look for, in answer to your question.

I typically find the younger generation doesn't listen -- much to their suffering later on.

[Backroads]

My emotional needs: communication, conversation, a worthy priesthood holder in the home, someone who will be good to kids, and someone who respects my need for occassional space without getting offended. He's great at all of those except the last one, but he says he wants to work at it.

His emotional needs: Being appreciated, being "survived" (he needs people to be patient with him, which I'm good at.)

These are the ones I've put into words. Frankly, I do feel I have looked at those issues. I honestly feel we would have a great practical marriage... it's the romance that's concerning me.

Then again, I may not know what else to look for.

As for his ex, I have met and am even Facebook friends with a mutual friend of both of them who is able to balance the friendships despite the divorce. My fiance has urged me to get his ex's side from his friend who knows both, which I have done. She says the ex was this young thing who wasn't ready to get married and really had no interest in marriage... and honestly was a little too wrapped up in herself. A great, great girl, but apparently not ready for that commitment. She also says the ex may have been urged into the marriage by my fiance, which is something he says may have been a problem.

Which is maybe what is worrying me. Like I said, I'm independent. I never felt like my life would be over if I didn't marry in this life. It makes me wonder how interested I am in marriage.

For his family... I chat with mom and his little brother. We spent Thanksgiving with them, so I got that time in.

mormonmusic, may I say how good you are at picking my brain? I sure appreciate this.

[Guest mormonmusic]

My emotional needs: communication, conversation, a worthy priesthood holder in the home, someone who will be good to kids, and someone who respects my need for occassional space without getting offended. He's great at all of those except the last one, but he says he wants to work at it.

His emotional needs: Being appreciated, being "survived" (he needs people to be patient with him, which I'm good at.)

OK, to try to align this with my understanding of emotional needs -- he has a need for admiration from the sound of it. Do you regularly show admiration for him? Are you willing to do this for the next few decades? I'm not sure about the patience -- patience with what behavior in his character?

These are the ones I've put into words. Frankly, I do feel I have looked at those issues. I honestly feel we would have a great practical marriage... it's the romance that's concerning me.

Can you comment more on the romance issue? That's a new one in your thinking now -- before it was your need for personal space only -- now you've mentioned romance -- can you expand on that? Do you mean your need for affection (hugs, kind words, flowers) or something else? What does he do (or not do) that concerns you about it?

Then again, I may not know what else to look for.

Many women find they have a high need for financial support -- particularly if they intend to stay at home and raise children, thus requiring one income. What are your hopes for material things like a home, cars, vacation, ability to save money, pursue hobbies, and enriching experiences for your eventual children? How capable is he of meeting these needs with his job and career path and propensity for hard word etcetera? What kind of a lifestyle did he grow up with? What kind of lifestyle will he be happy with materially? I know this sounds like gold-digging a bit, but it's more important than I think people realize.

Also, common needs from men, unexpressed before marriage are the following -- the need for domestic support is often huge -- meaning, they want someone to look after the house and other domestic work. Where does he come out on this issue? Is this important to him? How important? If he can't articulate the importance of this, how did responsibilities for keeping the house in order fall in his natural family -- if his Mom did everything then chances are he'll expect you to do most of it, particularly if you're going to be a stay-at-home mother eventually. Or is he not neat and tidy? What does his car look like? His apartment when you show up unexpectedly? Can you live with the level of cleanliness he desires? And what about pets, are you in agreement on that issue?

Having determined that -- how interested are you in keeping the house neat and tidy? Will you meet that need naturally without really trying?

As for his ex, I have met and am even Facebook friends with a mutual friend of both of them who is able to balance the friendships despite the divorce. My fiance has urged me to get his ex's side from his friend who knows both, which I have done. She says the ex was this young thing who wasn't ready to get married and really had no interest in marriage... and honestly was a little too wrapped up in herself. A great, great girl, but apparently not ready for that commitment. She also says the ex may have been urged into the marriage by my fiance, which is something he says may have been a problem.

Ok, but this sounds too general to me. When people divorce you often don't get the full scoop -- and it sounds like you got the sanitized version. I don't think you know the nuts and bolts of why his last marriage failed. Not ready for marriage? What specifically was she not ready for? I think this is a stone yet unturned fully for all its leading indicators of what to expect after marriage to your intended.

Which is maybe what is worrying me. Like I said, I'm independent. I never felt like my life would be over if I didn't marry in this life. It makes me wonder how interested I am in marriage.

I think we've established that too much independent behavior hurts your relationship -- how much personal space do you need? Is he willing to give it? You said he'd work on it -- just how important is it in your pecking order of emotional needs?

BTW, I have the same need for independence, and it was one reason I broke off a relationship -- any time I was available my girlfriend would schedule me in and I felt absolutely smothered. I only say this to say I empathize. My wife doesn't need me around all the time, which I love in her.

For his family... I chat with mom and his little brother. We spent Thanksgiving with them, so I got that time in.

Not nearly enough time Backroads -- I hate to be so "whatever" about this, but a weekend isn't enough time to push through the "sanitized version" of people's lives you get when you have a short visit. They are usually on their best behavior. You need to see the family IN ACTION, when they are truly themselves and "all shields are down". See them particularly when things are going wrong or there is conflict or they are working on something together, like a trip, a weekend camping, or working together on a home project and such. I don't think you have seen what's going on yet in his family on issues like domestic support, their ability to resolve conflict through only one weekend.

How they talk to each other is really important, in my view....do they fly off the handle with angry outbursts, etcetra? Most people are copies of their family lives, I've learned, and it's often unconcious. I only learned my wife's approach to problem solving and conflict after we got married and it wasn't pretty. Then, I saw how her family did it and IT WAS THE SAME.....

mormonmusic, may I say how good you are at picking my brain? I sure appreciate this.

Hopefully you got your money's worth....let me say, as I've said before in other threads, that I have only had a satisfactory to good marriage after years of trying and suffering in the beginning -- and if I was ever to do it again, I would be basing my decision on more information that you apparently have in front of you.....if I was you, I'd find the emotional needs questionnaire on the Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice site and go through it with your intended husband. This will expose what you're truly working with. I only figured out what makes my wife tick and my marriage work about 8 years into my marriage. And it was a huge surprise. Now I know exactly what I have to do to keep love alive, and what NOT to do as well. I can list it in detail, and I know exactly why my wife still loves me. If I had've known these things in advance, through the kind of observations, reflection and intense time-spending with her family, I might have had a much smoother life.....I'm just glad I made it, but truly, there were periods when it was absolute torment - would love to see others get the same kind of awareness BEFORE they are married, as much as possible -- I believe it can be done.

Edited December 16, 2010 by mormonmusic

[catalyst]

What about dating a little bit longer to get to know each other better and see if you really are a fit? 6 months and "already engaged" seems a little shotgun. You are planning to spend the rest of your life with this individual. Seems like more time/experience/communication/relationship would be best to make sure this is indeed the person for you and vice versa.

[Backroads]

You have all given me a lot to consider here.

As for observing the family... it's difificult to observe them. They live too far away to just "go visit" I'm afraid.

[NeuroTypical]

As for his ex, I have met and am even Facebook friends with a mutual friend of both of them who is able to balance the friendships despite the divorce.

I worked with a lady who did a stint in the Air Force. She had a picture on her desk of three smiling people with their faces all smooshed close together. She was on the right, her husband in the middle, and her husband's ex-wife on the left. She and the ex both had the funniest expressions on their faces - they were like beloved sisters having waay too much fun pouring a load of good-natured torture on their older brother. He had a look of good-natured exasperation on his face - he had accepted his role as torturee and was trying hard to enjoy it.

Not sure why I'm sharing this here - it's just that picture has stuck with me all these years.

LM

[talisyn]

It's important to be independent. It's important to be able to support yourself economically and emotionally. However...you must be able to trust your chosen partner with your heart. You have to learn how to rely on your husband. You must allow your heart to soften a bit or all you'll get is a vague sense of something missing.

Speaking of my own situation, after my ex left I became completely independent and made the choices for my tiny family. But I met my eventual husband and had to crack open my toughness and allow a certain amount of vulnerability. It's been a process this past year and a half and we're doing really good, but I have to stop myself from trying to take over and just do things because that's what I would do, and instead seek his input.

I hope this helped! And you'll be fine.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Backroads -- I did some more research and I think you should read over all the resources for people preparing for marriage at the link below. The link starts out with a letter that sounds a bit pessimistic about marriage, and a professional marriage counselor answers the question, pointing to some of his resources.

I think it's a worthwhile read. And I respect you for asking for things to consider -- many people are closed minded after they believe they have found someone.

Preparing for Marriage Letter #1

Here's another great article....

Choosing the Right One to Marry #2

Edited December 20, 2010 by mormonmusic

[Gwen]

Oh, I'm all about pre-marital counseling even when things are good. He's a little iffy, because he had counseling during his first marriage and it still ended in divorce.

this really really concerns me. if he won't even consider pre-marital counseling now to give you the best foundation possible then he won't if your marriage is ever on the line. so you need to know NOW not 5 yrs and 2 kids from now what his proposed means of dealing with a real conflict are. what does he propose instead? also if his only reason for refusing to go is because of a past marriage situation that is a huge red flag that he has not properly addressed and dealt with the pain and what went wrong in his previous marriage. it's not his past yet, it still controls him. i can promise you, you will pay that debt and it will come up in a lot of things beyond counseling.

make sure his past is in the past. if it's in the present then it will be his future. there is a reason the stats for second divorce are so high. yes it's ok to believe you are different and above the stats but don't discount them entirely, prepare to beat them or you won't.

[Backroads]

this really really concerns me. if he won't even consider pre-marital counseling now to give you the best foundation possible then he won't if your marriage is ever on the line. so you need to know NOW not 5 yrs and 2 kids from now what his proposed means of dealing with a real conflict are. what does he propose instead? also if his only reason for refusing to go is because of a past marriage situation that is a huge red flag that he has not properly addressed and dealt with the pain and what went wrong in his previous marriage. it's not his past yet, it still controls him. i can promise you, you will pay that debt and it will come up in a lot of things beyond counseling.

make sure his past is in the past. if it's in the present then it will be his future. there is a reason the stats for second divorce are so high. yes it's ok to believe you are different and above the stats but don't discount them entirely, prepare to beat them or you won't.

Thanks for your thoughts. Just this past weekend he told me he is talking to someone (he's a college student and he's finally taking care of the free counseling offers) and he also has told me he doesn't want this to be my burden.

We're still aiming for marriage and I'm still wearing the ring, but we really are discussing these things so... who knows? But even if it does go out, I would like it to go out knowing there was an effort from both of us.

[slamjet]

At the risk of sounding flippant, I was once told that you go into a marriage with eyes wide open, then you stay in the marriage with eyes half shut.

Get it all out before you get married and make sure you know/accept the man you're going to be with. Then once you're married (actually, I should say "if") overlook his little faults (i.e., so what if the cap is not on the toothpaste). And most of all, don't get married to "give it a try" or "let's see what happens." Without a doubt, it will fail.