Is It True?

[Christos]

I have heard this from many people "Mormons do not accept the Nicene creed".

I can't see any reason why you wouldn't though.

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

If it is true that you do not please explain why. :)

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man

Am I right in thinking that this passage goes against the LDS doctrine that we are living before we are born.

That we are all Sons of God before Earth.

I'm not sure but do you believe that we have physical bodies before birth or is that something that comes with an earthly life?

[Traveler]

I have heard this from many people "Mormons do not accept the Nicene creed".

I can't see any reason why you wouldn't though.

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

If it is true that you do not please explain why. :)

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man

Am I right in thinking that this passage goes against the LDS doctrine that we are living before we are born.

That we are all Sons of God before Earth.

I'm not sure but do you believe that we have physical bodies before birth or is that something that comes with an earthly life?

LDS do not accept the Nicene Creed. In fact we believe it is an abomination. I will offer two reasons with the idea that these are not the only two just two that I have time for right now.

1. The Creed denies the fall. That because of the fall man must deal with the mediator (Jesus Christ) to have anything at all to do with G-d the Father. That the only G-d since the fall is the G-d the Son that performs his role “in the name of the Father”.

2. The Creed denies Mary is the mother of our L-rd and therefore is contrary to scripture. The Trinity implies that Jesus has a divine nature and a human nature. If this was true then of what is Mary the mother? It could not be the divine nature because that is eternal and without beginning.

The Traveler

[Christos]

I cannot see what it has against the fall.

It talks about repentance, to repent you must repent for something therefore the fall.

It does not directly call mary his mother but that is because yes Mary is the mother of Jesus but is also the medium through whihch Jesus came to Earth.

A Bride without a Bridegroom.

Mary was appointed by God to give birth to God's only begotten Son.

Jesus was the fruit of her womb so Mary is Jesus' mother.

The nicene creed is the standard Christian creed. Creed is the greek word for "I believe".

Never take one source as containing all information. The creed could be much much longer but it was designed so that it contained the essentials and that it is easy to remember.

[Jason]

Hey Christos,

First, I'd like to ask which Eastern Orthodox Church you attend?

Second, Is it an old calendar church, or the heretical new calendar church?

Third, an Ecumenical Church Council is only truly "ecumenical" when all Christian Bishops have participated. Now I realize that the EO's accept seven councils as being "ecumenical" but I'd like to point out that a segment of Christianity, specifically the Christian Gnostics and the Nestorians were not involved in the making of the Creed of Nicea. As such, the creed is not approved by all Christians, nor is it truly an ecumenical project, as it did not involved the entire church.

Have a nice day. B)

[Palerider]

I have heard this from many people "Mormons do not accept the Nicene creed".

I can't see any reason why you wouldn't though.

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

If it is true that you do not please explain why. :)

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man

Am I right in thinking that this passage goes against the LDS doctrine that we are living before we are born.

That we are all Sons of God before Earth.

I'm not sure but do you believe that we have physical bodies before birth or is that something that comes with an earthly life?

God created all things through Jesus Christ.......this is my understanding from reading the scriptures...

[boyando]

I have heard this from many people "Mormons do not accept the Nicene creed".

I can't see any reason why you wouldn't though.

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

If it is true that you do not please explain why. :)

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man

Am I right in thinking that this passage goes against the LDS doctrine that we are living before we are born.

That we are all Sons of God before Earth.

I'm not sure but do you believe that we have physical bodies before birth or is that something that comes with an earthly life?

I'm not a expert on the nicene creed but what I have read of it, it doesn't have much in common with LDS doctrine.

The fact that Joseph Smith stated that he saw the Father and the Son with body's, not just spirit is different from what I read in the creed.

I think it is nice to see someone looking to see what we have in common instead of what we can argue about. And if it were not for the Nicene creed, any form of the Bible would have survived.

So too our Cathlic friends, I say thank you and God bless you. The number one thing we share is a love for the lord Jesus Christ and his Father who sent him and the Holy Spirit that testifies of Him.

Your friend-Almosthumble

[Snow]

I have heard this from many people "Mormons do not accept the Nicene creed".

I can't see any reason why you wouldn't though.

I accept it, but only it's original Klingon.

Why? Isn't believing the bible sufficient?

[roman]

Why? Isn't believing the bible sufficient?

This is a rather redundant question . Especially coming from a person who has their own personal interpertation and belief in scripture.

The creed is much closer in application to scripture than anything snow can ever come up with. In fact much of snows beliefs are against scripture. Example-----Jews didn't cross the Red Sea, but a marsh or swamp. So how did the army of pharoh drown in such small amount of water?

No I will take the creed over any lds interpertation anyday

[Traveler]

Why? Isn't believing the bible sufficient?

This is a rather redundant question . Especially coming from a person who has their own personal interpertation and belief in scripture.

The creed is much closer in application to scripture than anything snow can ever come up with. In fact much of snows beliefs are against scripture. Example-----Jews didn't cross the Red Sea, but a marsh or swamp. So how did the army of pharoh drown in such small amount of water?

No I will take the creed over any lds interpertation anyday

Especially the part:

And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church

[Traveler]

I cannot see what it has against the fall.

It talks about repentance, to repent you must repent for something therefore the fall.

Because of the fall Adan (man) was cast out of the Garden of G-d and can only come unto the Father by the Messiah, who is the mediator, between man and G-d the Father. Using the "Creed" please demonstrate a single instance in the Old Testament of the necessary mediator for anything between man and G-d.

It does not directly call mary his mother but that is because yes Mary is the mother of Jesus but is also the medium through whihch Jesus came to Earth.

We do not learn of Mary as the "mother of G-d" from the creed but from scripture. Please demonstrate how that Mary is the mother of the divine nature of Christ.

Never take one source as containing all information. The creed could be much much longer but it was designed so that it contained the essentials and that it is easy to remember.

I personally disagree with this notion. The world is not now nor ever has been in need of creeds and the councils that produce such things but the world is now and always has been in need of scripture and the prophets that spoke such things.

[roman]

<div class='quotemain'>

Why? Isn't believing the bible sufficient?

This is a rather redundant question . Especially coming from a person who has their own personal interpertation and belief in scripture.

The creed is much closer in application to scripture than anything snow can ever come up with. In fact much of snows beliefs are against scripture. Example-----Jews didn't cross the Red Sea, but a marsh or swamp. So how did the army of pharoh drown in such small amount of water?

No I will take the creed over any lds interpertation anyday

Especially the part:

And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church

Yes we will agree as long as we use the word catholic as the frames of the creed intended for it to be use---------universal and not as lds want it to be used as in the catholic church

quote]

Because of the fall Adan (man) was cast out of the Garden of G-d and can only come unto the Father by the Messiah, who is the mediator, between man and G-d the Father. Using the "Creed" please demonstrate a single instance in the Old Testament of the necessary mediator for anything between man and G-d.

The scriptures are clear that there was no mediator between man and God in OT times-----so what is your point?

The scriptures are also clear that before Christ, the gentiles were without hope or promise and outside of Godsredemtion.

Even though-----in OT times we see types of mediators---Moses and Abraham come to mind. And people did come to God and have relationships with him in OT times dispite your claims-----if not explain Job--Noah---Elijah--and many more

[Snow]

This is a rather redundant question . Especially coming from a person who has their own personal interpertation and belief in scripture.

The creed is much closer in application to scripture than anything snow can ever come up with. In fact much of snows beliefs are against scripture. Example-----Jews didn't cross the Red Sea, but a marsh or swamp. So how did the army of pharoh drown in such small amount of water?

No I will take the creed over any lds interpertation anyday

Oh my son Roman,

You have the thinking skills of a small but tasty crustacean.

1. You have used the word redundant incorrectly.

2. The issue is not whether I believe the Bible is sufficient but whether Christos believes it.

3. http://www.bibletexts.com/terms/redsea.htm

Take that let it be a lesson to you my little scallop.

[roman]

This is a rather redundant question . Especially coming from a person who has their own personal interpertation and belief in scripture.

The creed is much closer in application to scripture than anything snow can ever come up with. In fact much of snows beliefs are against scripture. Example-----Jews didn't cross the Red Sea, but a marsh or swamp. So how did the army of pharoh drown in such small amount of water?

No I will take the creed over any lds interpertation anyday

Oh my son Roman,

You have the thinking skills of a small but tasty crustacean.

1. You have used the word redundant incorrectly.

2. The issue is not whether I believe the Bible is sufficient but whether Christos believes it.

snow;

your insults are getting a little more creative---but still inaffective

I used the word redundant just exactly like I wanted to and made the issue excatly as I wanted to---sorry it was over your head and you missed it

I think its ironic that someone who puts the kind of twist on scriptures as you do will instruct others on scripture and its application and interpertation------thats all

3. http://www.bibletexts.com/terms/redsea.htm

[Snow]

snow;

your insults are getting a little more creative---but still inaffective

I used the word redundant just exactly like I wanted to and made the issue excatly as I wanted to---sorry it was over your head and you missed it

I think its ironic that someone who puts the kind of twist on scriptures as you do will instruct others on scripture and its application and interpertation------thats all

I see you are having a problem with the quote feature. Let me guide you son. Click the quote button, click the rely button and PRESTO, you have quotes. We in the LDS Church study this in Sunday School so we don't massacre it like you.

Here's the problem, redundant means needlessly repetitive. For example, if you believe that the Creeds are biblical, then they are redundant. I don't believe they are redundant, however Christo thinks we ought to believe in them - but if Christo believes the Creeds are necessary, then he believes that the bible is not sufficient.

Now little one, I just tested this post by having my cat read it. The cat understood it perfectly so you should be able to also, however I am not hopeful. Granted my cat is a smart cat and you're Roman and you think that one of the proofs that Moses crossed the Red Sea is that pharoh drowned in the water so it must have been deep.

My cat thinks that is idiotic.

[roman]

I see you are having a problem with the quote feature. Let me guide you son. Click the quote button, click the rely button and PRESTO, you have quotes. We in the LDS Church study this in Sunday School so we don't massacre it like you.

Here's the problem, redundant means needlessly repetitive. For example, if you believe that the Creeds are biblical, then they are redundant. I don't believe they are redundant, however Christo thinks we ought to believe in them - but if Christo believes the Creeds are necessary, then he believes that the bible is not sufficient.

Now little one, I just tested this post by having my cat read it. The cat understood it perfectly so you should be able to also, however I am not hopeful. Granted my cat is a smart cat and you're Roman and you think that one of the proofs that Moses crossed the Red Sea is that pharoh drowned in the water so it must have been deep.

My cat thinks that is idiotic.

snow; your talking apples and I'm talking oranges----I made the topic oranges and yes you missed my point. My point is not what anyone else thinks or has posted. As I said my point was your interpertation of things is so far from normal thought that you ought not be saying anything against someone else. That is the point--------Please read slow so you will get it----your missing it!

As to the redundant thing----I know what it means and I used it correctly. when you add up your post over time---it fits perfectly. ------Just your style of dodging the topic nothing more---nothing less

BTW----explain how horses and men drown in a shallow marsh as you say----never mind . Your having trouble with just one thought --let alone another

[Maureen]

...however Christo thinks we ought to believe in them - but if Christo believes the Creeds are necessary, then he believes that the bible is not sufficient.

creed

n.

A formal statement of religious belief; a confession of faith.

n 1: any system of principles or beliefs [syn: credo] 2: the written body of teachings of a religious group that are generally accepted by that group [syn: religious doctrine, church doctrine, gospel]

As you can see from the definition Snow, a creed is a statement of religious belief, similar to the LDS' Articles of Faith. Creating a creed or statement of belief doesn't say in any way that scripture is insufficient. It is merely paraphrasing scriptural doctrine into concise statements.

M.

[Christos]

Amen

(I somewhat feel I shouldn't have started this thread, it is becomming a bit of a blood bath )

Basically the Creed is an inclusive testimony, concise and to the point.

Also one must remember that Catholic does not refer to the church of Rome. It does mean the universal church as stated before. I suppose that if the creed were to be revised (yet again) that would be changed to avoid confusion. Yet the LDS church still sticks to the KJV as the only authorative translation of the bible...regardless of the fact that there have been many more revisions and accuracies made on the translation of the bible since 1611....also the bible is not corrupt. If you wish you may look at the original texts (which many are still in existance on Earth) or look at another account of the times that concurs with what is in the biblical texts. The Gospel according to St Thomas is such a text, though it was never added to the bible.

(I feel I may have added more bait to the blood bath )

(I apologise for the use of a conjuntion in my third from last sentance, though this is not standard English grammer it is accepted in modern English standards...I also apologise for my running dots.(and use of brackets))(and double brackets)

[prisonchaplain]

Here's the problem, redundant means needlessly repetitive. For example, if you believe that the Creeds are biblical, then they are redundant. I don't believe they are redundant, however Christo thinks we ought to believe in them - but if Christo believes the Creeds are necessary, then he believes that the bible is not sufficient.

Why creeds? Why statements of belief (which you can find at lds.org, btw)? God has given some to be teachers. As a history major, I find it useful to see what church thinkers have come up with in the past. How did the church define right doctrine, correct teaching? Creeds, in particular, demonstrate the lines in the sand that churches were willing to draw--saying in essence "You're with us on these, or you're a heretic."

Are they equivalent to Scripture? Well, if they were done well, they explicate Scriptural truths quite adequately. Furthermore, they a short synopsis of what church leadership believed was the essential core of scriptural truth.

Are creeds redundant, since we have Scripture? No, of course not. Scripture is the collection of written works that God has given the church. Creeds are brief lists of teachings that churches have found essential unifying doctrines. Furthermore, Scripture is believed to be directly inspired by God, while creeds are prayerfully considered statements of belief that leaders prayerfully formulate.

This statement of "The Bible is sufficient" is vague to me. Sufficient for what? Most Christians believe it is what God has given us in writing. But, is it sufficient of itself? Well, not if the reader is illiterate, or poorly equipped to understand it. That's why some are called to preach, teach, prophesy, etc. Does "suffiency of the Bible mean that there is nothing else to be learned from God, or that no teachers, scholars, theologians, etc. are needed? IMHO we get in trouble sometimes by formulating doctrines based upon questions the Bible does not ask or answer.

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

...however Christo thinks we ought to believe in them - but if Christo believes the Creeds are necessary, then he believes that the bible is not sufficient.

creed

n.

A formal statement of religious belief; a confession of faith.

Seriously Maureen - do you really suppose that I don't know what a creed is?

The standard argument is that Mormons are Christian because, among other things but mostly this - they don't accept the Creeds.

My question for Christos was isn't accepting the Bible good enough for him or do we also have to accept extra-biblical doctrine. Obviously.

[Snow]

Yet the LDS church still sticks to the KJV as the only authorative translation of the bible...regardless of the fact that there have been many more revisions and accuracies made on the translation of the bible since 1611....also the bible is not corrupt.

Can you give me a source that supports your claim that in the LDS Church, the KJV is the ONLY AUTHORATIVE translation? I don't believe you.

If you wish you may look at the original texts (which many are still in existance on Earth) or look at another account of the times that concurs with what is in the biblical texts. The Gospel according to St Thomas is such a text, though it was never added to the bible.

Nonsense Alert! There are no original biblical manuscripts on earth.

[Snow]

I see you are having a problem with the quote feature. Let me guide you son. Click the quote button, click the rely button and PRESTO, you have quotes. We in the LDS Church study this in Sunday School so we don't massacre it like you.

Here's the problem, redundant means needlessly repetitive. For example, if you believe that the Creeds are biblical, then they are redundant. I don't believe they are redundant, however Christo thinks we ought to believe in them - but if Christo believes the Creeds are necessary, then he believes that the bible is not sufficient.

Now little one, I just tested this post by having my cat read it. The cat understood it perfectly so you should be able to also, however I am not hopeful. Granted my cat is a smart cat and you're Roman and you think that one of the proofs that Moses crossed the Red Sea is that pharoh drowned in the water so it must have been deep.

My cat thinks that is idiotic.

snow; your talking apples and I'm talking oranges----I made the topic oranges and yes you missed my point. My point is not what anyone else thinks or has posted. As I said my point was your interpertation of things is so far from normal thought that you ought not be saying anything against someone else. That is the point--------Please read slow so you will get it----your missing it!

As to the redundant thing----I know what it means and I used it correctly. when you add up your post over time---it fits perfectly. ------Just your style of dodging the topic nothing more---nothing less

Still having trouble with quotes I see. Just push the quote button and PRESTO, you can post like the big boys and girls.

Now is your chance to sound intelligent. How was my one, single sentence question of Christos redundant as you have now twice claimed?

BTW----explain how horses and men drown in a shallow marsh as you say----never mind . Your having trouble with just one thought --let alone another

There is no better example of the difference between my thinking skills and your thinking skills. To prove my point about the Sea of Reeds, I post

1. A translation of the origianal Hebrew.

2. A scholarly article from Biblical Archeology

3. A footnote from The Harper Collins Study Bible, New Revised Standard Version: with the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical Books

To prove your point you post: "explain how horses and men drown in a shallow marsh"

Remember how you once claimed that you could prove absolutely that Christ had resurrected? And how you proof was that the Bible mentioned witnesses to the resurrected Christ.

Folks are still laughing at that one too.

[roman]

As to the redundant thing----I know what it means and I used it correctly. when you add up your post over time---it fits perfectly. ------Just your style of dodging the topic nothing more---nothing less

Now is your chance to sound intelligent. How was my one, single sentence question of Christos redundant as you have now twice claimed?

snow---your lying again or still hard to tell the difference---I said---put your history of post together and it makes the statement redundant. so you see I never said one statement. I was just your rush to judgement that it went over your head

Remember how you once claimed that you could prove absolutely that Christ had resurrected? And how you proof was that the Bible mentioned witnesses to the resurrected Christ.

snow---I think--no I know that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit proves the point of Christ ressurection. Besides the resurection of Jesus is a given any more any way. Many Many secular historians even agree with that thought.

sorry your believe that when scripture says that over 500-600 people saw Christ after his ressurection---that you think they were all lying--sorry can't help your unbelief

Folks are still laughing at that one too.------- snow-Name the people who are still laughing---no you can't but I know a few who giggle at you----and you call yourself a big boy--like I say you don't know how rediculeous you appear ---nor do I really care what you think---your exposing yourself again or still--hard to tell

Are we having fun yet?

[Snow]

Push quote then push reply. Works everytime.

There is not a single secular historian that believe that the resurrection of Jesus has been proved. Not a single one.

To be fair, I doubt anybody remembers your idea that the resurrection was proved because scriptures say that there were witness but perhaps we can get some new people to laugh now.

Your still using the word redundant wrong - and it's not even that hard of a word. Heres how you can tell. I have never had a conversation with Christos before. It is therefor impossible for me to be redundant.

At dinner I told my wife and kids about the guy on the internet that thinks that proof that the translation of "Red Sea" was correct is that the pharoh and his men could not have drown in shallow water. Three guess what my kids thought of that.

[roman]

snow;

I forgive you. I pray for you. I pray that the Spirit of God will enlighten you and bring you understanding. That he will strength you and bring you into all widom and knowledge of the one who died for you. That you will know the depth of his love towards you. That you can really know God and the one whom he sent. That God would open his word to you and show you the reality, power, revalation, and grace that is avaible to you. That you will be blessed in all you do---that you will overcome and that one day you will here the words of the Master----"well done thou good and faithful servant. Enter into my rest.

In all sencerity;

roman

[Snow]

What on earth are you forgiving me for?

Isn't that just a little over the top? If you are going to be fair and honest, and sincere, you should be asking for forgiveness as much as extending it, in that these little exchanges with you are always bilateral, you having started this one and just called me a liar. You act as if you have been harmed instead of just annoyed.