The Ultimate Betrayal

[lumberjacksdaughter]

Should we have used more birth control and had less kids (I have nine children)?

I would always just ask myself if I was willing to tell Heavenly Father that his children were not welcome in our home. The excuses, I was too busy, we weren't rich enough, there wouldn't be enough love to go around (advice from my husband's parents) etc. just didn't seem legitimate to me.

I joined the church when I was twenty. Married a non-member a few years later who a year or so after that joined the church himself. The times we moved it was never scary or lonely because we would immediately be welcomed into each new ward with open arms.

Then I became pregnant with twins after having three boys. The first shot came when I was at an LDS Church garage sale. A member there commented on whether it had been a wise choice for my husband and I to be pregnant again (the twins girls were 15 months younger than their next brother up).

Then in the church foyer with my 7 month twin belly sticking straight out in front of me, someone asked me (in distaste?) did I ENJOY being pregnant?

Around that time I was sitting in the nursery during church and the adult teacher there informed me that her daughter goes to BYU and her professor taught them that there should always be at least three years between births. Boy, did I feel stupid (not). But I did feel betrayed.

Then I was in Relief Society class and the beautiful teacher stated that she just cringed each time that her daughter told her that she was expecting yet another baby. What a tragedy for that sister.

Then I went to a stake fireside in Spokane Washington, the topic being depression in Mormon women. We had just bought land in the country and an older mobile home (we were waiting for the water line to be completed and the septic system to be put in). My husband was packing water from his work and we were using a porta-potty and I had three kids in diapers (the third son and his twin sisters). This was before pampers (or before we could afford them, anyway). So I was just a wee-bit depressed. I went to the fireside which was the rebroadcast of a TV show that had originated in Salt Lake City and found out that the reason Mormon women are depressed is because they don't know how to say NO. Mostly it was because they had too many kids too fast and they didn't know how to say no when given a church calling. That seemed like the ultimate betrayal. There I was with 5 children, the oldest having just turned 6 and I always accepted my church callings for the obvious reason. Was I naive?

Apparently...

None of our sons has went on a mission. None of our children have been married in the temple. Now I perhaps wish that I hadn't had the last three kids because that would mean that I could have gotten out of my marriage after the last had turned 18 (six years ago) instead of feeling I need to stick it out for three more years till the youngest turns 18.

I guess the joke is on me.

(To put this post in the right time frame: It was during the second heavy push to pass the Equal Rights Amendment. Donohue was at his height of popularity. A sister who had been excommunicated (and later became a lesbian) was on Donohue saying how diststasteful it was to be a Mormon woman (it's lonely up there on a pedestal...). Donohue started the show by saying they had invited the general Relief Society President to come on the show but she had refused. It was later found out that they had called her when she was just about to head for the airport and told her to stay home - she was no longer invited to come on the show. I heard that he had to apologize later on the air for that lie.)

[Jason]

LJ's daughter.

Forgive my saying, but you sound more like a woman about to leave the LDS church, than a woman who's about to leave her husband.

Are you bitter about the life you've led? Do you really want to go back in time and change everything you've done?

If for no other reason, I think you should see a professional counselor. You have a lot of issues that need attention, and that's not even touching your marriage problems.

Time to refocus and redirect all that negative energy swirlling around you and find your true path.

Blessings,

Jason

[StrawberryFields]

Oh MY LJD,

You really said many things in your post, some I will think about for a bit before I comment.

The part about mormon women being depressed...I have not heard that it was so because of not saying no to more children. I think with the ages of your children I may be a little younger then you are. I have grown up in Utah as a member of the church although my parents were less active. I always remember being told to go forth and multiply the earth but never been told not to use birth control. The woman who said things to you about having so many children were motivated to do so for another reason other than doctrine IMO. I believe that the number of children a couple has is a personal issue between that couple and the Lord.

I would have loved to have more children then the three I was allowed to have, maybe another two. My husband wanted to be able to give them things he didn't get as a child coming from a family of 6 children. I wanted to have lots of children around me growing up in a home where I felt lonely much of the time having only one living brother 7 years younger than myself. Well, this has been a sore spot for me not being allowed to have more children and has caused me heartache over the years. Now it is my husband who pays because we always have a house full of kids some who only feel like mine and I am the biggest child of all.

I do believe that Mormon have a lot of issues with depression. Part of the problem does stem from not saying No to more responsibility in the church. Some of the depression stems from what we believe to be true from the outside looking into the lives of those who we believe "have it all together". I think that as women in the church we place too many expectations on ourselves and forget the agency of others i.e our children. It is my opinion that as we review our lives (after we die) we will look at it and asked ourselves "did I do my best" That is all we are responsiable for ....doing our best with the knowledge we had at the time.

[Lindy]

L-J-D

I agree with Jason that you should go see a counslor, a lot of things you are trying to deal with, and I think you need a sounding block who might be able to clue in on somethings that we as unprofessionals can't.

I can imagine the anger you must feel about being pregnant and having such horrid comments made to you when you are in an emotional state being pregnant as it is. How inconsiderate and rude of some people who don't take things under consideration. I am sorry that others did that to you. I don't think that we think before we speak sometimes..... if we did feelings may be spared. You may be suffering from some post partum depression that has lingered and hasn't been addressed as of yet.

I don't think you need to be angry at God, or the church for having so many children. That was a choice that you and your husband made, and shouldn't be blamed on outside factors. I should have left my husband for good years before our marriage ended... but I didn't.... and we had one more child (#4) inbetween. I have never, for one moment, ever thought it would have been better not to have that child. My children are my life, they are grown and make their own decisions, but are still a very big part of my life. No mattter the hardships or the tears...... they are so worth it.

I like what SF said

"did I do my best" That is all we are responsiable for ....doing our best with the knowledge we had at the time.

I really agree with that.... all we can do is do our best, with what we have and what we are given.

Take the time to take care of yourself LJD.... you will be happier with yourself, with your family, your husband and your church.

My two cents.

[shanstress70]

I'm totally surprised that LDS women said those things to you... don't let that come across as me saying I don't believe you, because I do. It just goes to show that people have opinions on EVERYTHING, because I regularly got crap for not having a child and being over 30. And if I was still a member, I'm sure I'd get it for only having one child now.

If you were happy with the number of children you had, that is all that matters. It is no one's business but you, your husband, and God.

And I don't think it's a bad thing at all that your sons didn't go on missions or marry in the temple. ( Of course I'm gonna get killed for that one!) But they don't have to be LDS to be great people... just look at me!!!

I am sorry you are having such a rough time, and I agree that counseling may be a good thing for you. It has certainly helped me at times.

Take care!

[mom_of_jcchlsm]

I'm a Mom of seven, and have had similar things said to me. I just laugh it off. I sincerely believe most people are just making conversation and end up putting their foot in their mouth -- they mean for things to come out differently or they take the thread of conversation down a wrong turn. Some, I believe, are honestly seeking info for their own troubled minds - they want to know what it's like to have so many kids or why we made this choice so that they can weight things out in their minds about how they feel about having (more) children. There are, of course, some who are bitter over their own choices (to have or not to have). They seek "that all men might be miserable like unto [themselves]." They need my love and compassion, more than my advice. And they usually only ask questions so they can make you stand there while they talk about themselves anyway. Their barbs are easily deflected by my security in knowing that I have made my own choices and am satisfied with them.

[StrawberryFields]

Their barbs are easily deflected by my security in knowing that I have made my own choices and am satisfied with them.

VERY WELL SAID!

[Mahonri]

I am child 5 of 7. I have 7 children.

Many folks have thought that my wife and I are insane.

It's not easy to raise kids anymore.

My folks were blessed. All seven have graduated from Universities with advanced degrees. All sons and sons in law served full time missions. All seven sons and sons-in-law have served as Bishop...one is serving for the second time and another is now a stake president.

I can't imagine being able to have the blessings that my folks have.

I can't tell you how many times folks have given us a bad time for having 7 children. I just tell my wife that they are either jealous because they can't have that many or they think they can't afford them. Our first wasn't born until I was 30 and my wife was 28.

It hasn't been easy. We have our share of trials just like everyone else... that's the nature of mortality.

I just keep having FHE, reading the scriptures with them, having family prayer. Talk to them about going on missions. etc...

All I can do is hope and pray that they will do everything in their power to try and please Our Savior.

enough said...

Hang in there. You will be blessed.

M

[Maureen]

After reading your post LJD, I was thinking the same thing Jason was - maybe it's not your husband you want to leave but the LDS church.

In Star Trek canon there's something called the Mirror Universe, where the people are the same people but the culture and community are just the opposite, and the people's decisions and actions are directly influenced by that culture. From your description of the LDS women's remarks about children and such, I'm thinking they are from a different Mormon universe than what I'm familiar with. My friend has 7 children and here in Canada, during the time she married and had her kids (early 80's to early 90's) the majority of the wards here had large families. LDS members usually were baffled when they learned about other members who only had 2 kids. It is usually the non-LDS that are the confused ones when it comes to understanding couples who want extremely large families.

I'm sure in hindsight you've realized that the LDS church probably influenced you in your decision to have a large family and the fact that you were very fertile probably helped. If you had never become an LDS member there's a good chance you wouldn't have had so many children. But since that's not what happened I think the best anyone can ever do is learn from life's lessons. Take everything you know about yourself, from how you've grown as a person and woman and make decisions that are good for you. You may need a sounding board to do that, so seek counseling if you think it will help.

M.

[Snow]

. Mostly it was because they had too many kids too fast and they didn't know how to say no when given a church calling. That seemed like the ultimate betrayal.

I don't get it. How is that a betrayal, let alone the ULTIMATE betrayal. Aren't you an agent unto yourself?

[Ray]

Perhaps more details about what she was talking about might help you to understand what she was thinking.

…I went to a stake fireside in Spokane Washington, the topic being depression in Mormon women… I was just a wee-bit depressed… I went to the fireside which was the rebroadcast of a TV show that had originated in Salt Lake City and found out that the reason Mormon women are depressed is because they don't know how to say NO… when given a church calling.

Or in other words, I think she felt betrayed by the people who were assigned to speak at the stake fireside she attended… a stake fireside where people in the stake leadership had rebroadcast a TV show with people who were saying that “Mormon” women are depressed because they don't know how to say NO when given a church calling… a calling which could be given by members of the stake.

And btw, while I would have gotten a completely different message than one of ultimate betrayal by the stake leadership, who were giving the message that it’s OKAY to say NO to a church calling <in certain circumstances>, I think that is clearly why she felt betrayed, even though I wouldn’t have felt that way.

And btw, I also consider the role of parenthood to be a “church” calling, a calling given by God to everyone who wants to follow Him, or those who are known as His church.

Heh, and lest anyone becomes confused by my use of the word “church” there, I will now tell you that I believe there is a universal church of God as well as a specific organization.

And btw, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and feelings, whether or not anyone else agrees with them.

[lumberjacksdaughter]

Thank you all for your concern.

I have a confession to make. The better I feel about myself (excercising, eating right, keeping an organized home, being kind to others, setting goals and then putting in the hard work it takes to achieve them, etc.) the more I tend to like my husband.

So I will try again to be the best me that I can be and see how it goes from there.

By the way, I said it felt like the ultimate betrayal, not that it was. I was being torn down by a society that said that being a mother was a demeaning occupation. A society that was telling my first grader at school that it is wrong to have more than two children when he had 4 younger brothers and sisters at home. A society that had decided that abortion-on-demand was wise and virtuous. A society where a top TV show (Donohue) had an entire program pointing out that Mormon women are clueless. I was strong enough to withstand the pressure of that society that told me I had no value - no, even worse, that I was a fool to concentrate on my marriage and taking care of my children. But when the barbs and criticisms started to come from church members, I did really feel betrayed. I was telling you how I felt at the time. Not asking you to judge whether it was a bonified betrayal.

[Guest Monica]

Basically, if you want to have children, can afford them, and can be a good parent to them all, it its no one's business how many you have. Also, its no one's business how close they are in age. After all, its you who changes the diapers, not society. Remember society doesnt follow Jesus.

You are very blessed to have so many babies.

Psa 127:3 Lo, children [are] an heritage of the LORD: [and] the fruit of the womb [is his] reward.

Avoid the talk shows. All they do is depress people.

Phl 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

[Winnie G]

I think it is better said that Mormon women are depressed not due to birth control and saying no to a large family but LDS women cant say no to all the rest.

I served in wards were I held multiple callings. The sisters I was to visit were always high Maintenance and mostly inactive. I have delivered 1000’s of meals; baby-sat enough bratty kids to fill a ocean. We cannot say no to all that is heaped upon us and to tell the whole truth if it was left to the priesthood they would all delegate it to us women.

I had four children and had a bishop who encouraged me to not have more then I could handle, I was married to a non-member and he was little help. Sundays were hard on me and trying to control four in sacrament was high maintenance I tell you.

I do not think the Lord wants us to be baby makers just because we can never means we have too.

I will never forget a sister who asked me in front of a table of full of sisters if I was allowed to have my tubs tied? The sisters asked how I was feeling, I was recovering from surgery after my last son was born.

She was an older sister who just married the year before and as sweat as she was she was slightly handicapped and married a men who used her more the was a husband. He was finely Exed due to his behavior.

At first, I thought she said something different and asked her wait she meant?

She repeated the question.

I told her there was no rule set in stone that it was my body and I decided not my husband or faith would make that decision for me.

If there is little parenting done by the other spouse but to breed then it should be taken up with a bishop.

I remember president Kimball chastising the men one conference for not co-parenting and to “have restraint” “don’t have more then your wife can handle”.

I hear what your saying, you sound like you have issues with your marriage and have hurt feelings from un-thoughtful members. Shames on them for making you feel this way.

You have so much in your post and I truly think it is a good idea you see someone and your bishop.

I remember telling some thoughtless brothers once standing in the hall way winning at each other about being in the hall way. Once said “If I had my way she be out here and I be in there. I was taking my four for the third trip to the bathroom and heard him as I walked by. I stopped dead in my spot and said “Well if you did not want the blessings of being in the hall way don’t be seen at the seen of that accident!

Let’s see all of you push a bowling ball though the end of your penis and then you have something to complain about”!

[Fiannan]

Why would any guy complain about being in the hall with young children? Most guys I know have more than once purposly woke a baby so as to get out of a boring sacrament talk. Little pinch or shake and presto, you get to converse in the hall with the other fathers and the teenagers.

[miztrniceguy]

Why would any guy complain about being in the hall with young children? Most guys I know have more than once purposly woke a baby so as to get out of a boring sacrament talk. Little pinch or shake and presto, you get to converse in the hall with the other fathers and the teenagers.

lol...does that really work ?

[Lindy]

ROFL.....

Shhhhhh now every father will be pinching the babies.....

[miztrniceguy]

ROFL.....

Shhhhhh now every father will be pinching the babies.....

my wife and i have been struggling with the thought of a 3rd child. we have been married 3 1/2 yrs. our daughter Lydia is almosr 3 and our son Scott is 4 months old. I am content with 2. My wife tells me Daisy keeps visiting her every time we lean toward the idea of stopping and me getting fixed. Both of her childbirths were extremely difficult, but resulted in2 wonderful children. I am alsoa SAHD at this time. no income no health insurance

She is having trouble looking at her and telling her we dont want her. I'm not sure about it, but I trust my wife's judgement.

[Winnie G]

Three and a half years?

In less your age is a factor, I would not concern myself with one more at lest for now.

Times change and health improves, my first tow were just awful four years after that the last two arrived. They were a peace of cake compared to the first two.

It was not until I reached my late 20’s would a doctor even look at me about getting my tubs tied. Even then I was asked if something would have happen would I wanted it reversed. If you answer yes they will not do it.

Getting fixed it’s a very final dissension.

Four was all for me but if I had a magic ball and could see that my marriage would have ended and I would find a eternal companion I would have not done it.

But on the other hand two years after my surgery cancer settled that question in my mind but my hart knows I have eternity.

[Lindy]

<div class='quotemain'>

ROFL.....

Shhhhhh now every father will be pinching the babies.....

my wife and i have been struggling with the thought of a 3rd child. we have been married 3 1/2 yrs. our daughter Lydia is almosr 3 and our son Scott is 4 months old. I am content with 2. My wife tells me Daisy keeps visiting her every time we lean toward the idea of stopping and me getting fixed. Both of her childbirths were extremely difficult, but resulted in2 wonderful children. I am alsoa SAHD at this time. no income no health insurance

She is having trouble looking at her and telling her we dont want her. I'm not sure about it, but I trust my wife's judgement. Well paint me blue and color me confused...... who is Daisy? I must have missed something somewhere

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

ROFL.....

Shhhhhh now every father will be pinching the babies.....

my wife and i have been struggling with the thought of a 3rd child. we have been married 3 1/2 yrs. our daughter Lydia is almosr 3 and our son Scott is 4 months old. I am content with 2. My wife tells me Daisy keeps visiting her every time we lean toward the idea of stopping and me getting fixed. Both of her childbirths were extremely difficult, but resulted in2 wonderful children. I am alsoa SAHD at this time. no income no health insurance

She is having trouble looking at her and telling her we dont want her. I'm not sure about it, but I trust my wife's judgement. Well paint me blue and color me confused...... who is Daisy? I must have missed something somewhere

I think he's saying that 'Daisy' is a spirit child that visits them to persuade them to give her a body... just guessing though.

[miztrniceguy]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

ROFL.....

Shhhhhh now every father will be pinching the babies.....

my wife and i have been struggling with the thought of a 3rd child. we have been married 3 1/2 yrs. our daughter Lydia is almosr 3 and our son Scott is 4 months old. I am content with 2. My wife tells me Daisy keeps visiting her every time we lean toward the idea of stopping and me getting fixed. Both of her childbirths were extremely difficult, but resulted in2 wonderful children. I am alsoa SAHD at this time. no income no health insurance

She is having trouble looking at her and telling her we dont want her. I'm not sure about it, but I trust my wife's judgement. Well paint me blue and color me confused...... who is Daisy? I must have missed something somewhere

I think he's saying that 'Daisy' is a spirit child that visits them to persuade them to give her a body... just guessing though.

correct shantress, and sorry that wasn't clear to the rest. Yes, Daisy is a spirit child that visits my wife, who btw turns 38 friday. whenever we have doubts about wether we should have another, for a variety of different reasons, she shows up in my wifes dreams. As soon as we put off making a final decision she goes away...presumably to wait her turn to come here.

[ALatterDaySaint]

Mizterniceguy,

Here is some reading you and your wife might enjoy. Its about spirit children and dreams of them according to the Natives of Australia. Interesting stuff.

Communications with the unborn may be as old as human life itself. Aboriginal peoples of Australia, a territory slightly larger than the U.S., had unique economic, political, social, and linguistic characteristics. At the same time, they shared one extraordinary belief: conceiving a child is founded in a spiritual event--a "spirit-child" selects his parents and this event enables biology to take its course. A Forrest River Aborigine, as a prime example, dreams of a spirit-child playing with his spears or with his wife's paper bark; the husband thrusts the spirit-child towards his wife and it enters by her foot. Conception then proceeds into pregnancy (except in certain cases where conception occurs several years later).

The term "spirit-child" roughly equates with the Western concept of the soul. Aside from that similarity, the Aboriginal pre-conception paradigm contrasts with science's understanding of pregnancy. The first anthropologists to hear Aboriginal pre-conception reports assumed that the spirit-child pre-empted the role of male sperm, and labeled this notion "the most elementary belief concerning the genesis of the individual."

Even more puzzling, Aborigines held their belief after learning about biological conception as an accidental collision of sperm and egg. They contended that sexual intercourse, though it may prepare the way for the child's entry into the womb, by itself is not the sole cause of conception--since a spirit-child is necessary. As elucidated by anthropologist Ashley Montagu(1):

The Aboriginal world is essentially a spiritual world, and material acts are invested with a spiritual significance... The spiritual origin of children is the fundamental belief, and among the most important stays of the social fabric. It is absurd then to think...intercourse could be the cause of a child.

A contemporary researcher who lived with the Aborigines explains the spirit-child concept(2):

The new life which has chosen to enter the woman is a complete entity who has originated at some time in the long distant past, and is immeasurably more ancient and completely independent of any living person.

Perception of spirit-children depends upon intuitive ability. Aborigines generally agree that the spirit-children are tiny, fully developed babies. Four versions follow:

Ngalia: Spirit-children have dark hair with light-colored streaks. They sit under shady trees, waiting for a compatible mother to pass by. Meanwhile they eat the gum of acacia trees, and drink morning dew.

Tiwi: Spirit-children are small dark-skinned people who are two to three inches high, but reach nine inches in maturity.

Western Australian Aborigines: Spirit-children are as small as walnuts and wander over the land, playing in pools like ordinary children.

Central Australian Arunta: A spirit-child is the germ of a complete pre-formed individual, about the size of a tiny, red, round pebble.

Messages From the Dream World

Spirit-child dreams are the catalysts that transform a spirit-child "from the world of the unborn to that of the living." [Editor's Note: And most surprisingly to our modern mind-set, such dreams are primarily the province of the men.] In a representative dream, a small dark-skinned spirit-child, two to three inches high, reveals its name and expresses a desire for birth. If the man has several wives, he chooses the most appropriate mother and describes her whereabouts to the spirit-child.

One young man's dream occurred six years prior to his son's birth. In the dream, Bos saw a pilot involved in an air battle. The enemy shot his plane down, and wounded the pilot's arm and leg. The injured spirit-child approached Bos and said, "You are my father, but I will send my sister to be born first. I must go to America to get good medicine. I will be born to you in six years. You will recognize me." Sure enough, the moment Bos saw the newborn's crooked arm and leg, he said, "This is the son I dreamed."

A man's dream is the root cause of pregnancy, according to the Unambal and Worora Aborigines. In such a pre-conception dream, the man's soul can wander around the country and meet a spirit-child, usually at a sacred water pool where the man's own soul originally "emanated." After dreaming about the spirit-child, he hands it over in a second dream to his wife. Aspiring fathers who sleep near the water pools typically dream of a rock python, a supernatural being, who comes bearing a spirit-child in its mouth as a gift. Nine months later, the father names the newborn after the water pool where he "conceived" him.

Husbands sometimes "find" a spirit-child in a dream when they are away from home. On these occasions, an Aborigine captures the spirit-child and ties it in his hair until he returns to his wife. He transfers the spirit-child to his wife by placing it near his wife or on her navel. The spirit-child enters the wife's womb, "though not necessarily at once."

Aborigines exhibit such a high level of sensitivity that they not only meet spirit-children via a subtle dream, they even find them while hunting or gathering food. They often experience omens, see fleeting images, or hear a spirit-child's voice in the wind or water calling "father." A spirit-child picks out a suitable man, sits upon his shoulder, and rides home with him after the hunt. The "father" hears the spirit-child whispering into his ear, or feels him tweaking his hair or making his muscles twitch.

Men in the Forrest River region observe spirit-children riding on the back of the legendary Rainbow Snake. The sacred spirit of fertility carries spirit-children along the rivers and lakes where potential fathers are fishing. When a spirit-child sights a man to his liking, he calls, "father." A receptive man brings the spirit-child home by securing him in his hair which is smeared with red ochre, drawn back and bound with hair string. In certain cases, a man will find a spirit-child when he "sees" a tiny snake or fish suddenly appear and disappear. Then, for some reason, he keeps the spirit-child for years fastened in his hair before transferring the spirit-child to his wife.

Spiritual Versus Biological Paternity

Daisy M. Bates, more than any other outsider, understood the Broome District Aborigines. This gentle English woman pitched her camp and lived a nomadic lifestyle with the Aborigines for nearly forty years.(3) Bates discovered something unusual about the Aborigines: paternity is the responsibility of the spirit-child rather than the father's sexual act. A man's dream determines his fatherhood rather than his sperm. So firm was the spirit-child paradigm among Broome District Aborigines that no man acknowledged paternity unless he had met the spirit-child in his sleeping hours. In one instance, a husband accepted a child born to his wife during their five-year separation, thereby ignoring the lapsed time between intercourse and birth.

An anthropologist found parallel beliefs among Tiwi Aborigines. Larry, as a case in point, accepted his wife's child as his own spiritual daughter upon returning after a two-year absence. Larry's daughter had appeared to him in a dream during the couple's separation. She touched him with a spear and asked, "Where is my mother?" Larry described how to find Dolly at Snake Bay.

One full moon night, upon Larry's return to his wife Dolly, he walked along the beach cradling his wife's infant in his arms. He was delighted with his wife and ecstatic about their newborn daughter, even though he was not the biological father. He sang to the baby about "the spirit land from which all people came and to which they return on death."

Bates cites further reports of men who denied paternity even if the couple had never been apart. In such cases, the men did not have a spirit-child dream, or dreamed of a daughter, but their wives birthed sons or vice versa. In these cases, the mother must locate the "real" father who had the spirit-child dream.

Lost Visions

Aborigines reported fewer pre-conception dreams once Western religion, rationalism, and science began to spread throughout Australia. A number of subtle factors contributed to population decline of Aborigines, as Dr. Andreas Lommel discovered.(4) As part of the Frobenius Expedition in 1938, Lommel studied modern culture's impact on Aborigines in the Kimberly Division of Northwestern Australia. The German ethnologist interviewed Ungarinyin, Worora, and Unambal Aborigines, including "civilized" Aborigines and those on the fringe of settlement, as well as the "untouched" who maintained their heritage.

To begin with, Aborigines who had been raised on missions and government stations knew little more about hunting kangaroos with spears or collecting edible roots than a typical white man. These stock boys, farm-hands, and laborers had adopted European dress and preserved only fragments of their native language. These assimilated men differed from their forefathers in another significant way. They were losing the ability to have "proper" spirit-child dreams. Birth rates were decreasing. As a result, despite excellent economic and sanitary conditions, only one-tenth of the two hundred members of the Worora in the Kunmunja Mission was under twenty, typical of a population in decline.

A missionary's advice, "Increase sexual contact with your wives," fell upon deaf ears. The Worora knew that conception depends upon a spirit-child's will to be born. The physical sex act was "more or less insignificant," even though the men had been educated about male sperm.

In Lommel's discussions with the Aborigines, the men offered one reason for fewer spirit-child dreams: "Sleep must not be too heavy." The dreamer must remain alert and sensitive, even as the body rests. When a man dreams like that, the spirit-child's name enters his heart; then, it "goes into his head" and the man becomes "fully conscious" of it. In essence, the Aborigines attributed proper dreams to a duality of consciousness event, an alert mind and resting body -- comparable to conscious dreams as defined by yogis who pursue a meditative life-style. The Aborigines began to accumulate modern stress once they left the tranquil, silent life of the bush where they had practiced sacred ceremonies and had time to contemplate and meditate.

Lommel spoke to Aborigines who hid in the back country away from white men. The lifestyle of the Unambal, as a prime case, remained unchanged. Kangaroos were abundant and economic conditions remained favorable. The government prohibited visiting adventurers, traders, and settlers from entering Unambal territory.

Nevertheless, the Unambal reported falling birth rates. And instead of spirit-child dreams, they encountered nightmares. Even though the Unambal had never seen a white man, they were irritated by the rumors and dreamed of "white men who looked pale like the spirits of the dead," devices flying overhead, and strange lighted steamboats that passed in the night. News of the approaching civilization upset their peace of mind. The Unambal no longer attained the psychological "disposition necessary for the physical act of generation." In a sense, the Aborigines were suffering from a kind of psychic shock. As Lommel put it, the spirit-child dream might well be indispensable for biological conception.

[Maureen]

correct shantress, and sorry that wasn't clear to the rest. Yes, Daisy is a spirit child that visits my wife, who btw turns 38 friday. whenever we have doubts about wether we should have another, for a variety of different reasons, she shows up in my wifes dreams. As soon as we put off making a final decision she goes away...presumably to wait her turn to come here.

Well miztrniceguy, since you have a girl and a boy I can see why you could feel comfortable with that (I have the same). Since your son is only 4 months old and your wife has difficult pregnancies, I would wait until your son is at least 9 months old before seriously thinking of child #3. Maybe your wife could consult with her ob-gyn for medical advice to help with the decision. Since she is in her later '30's though, the decision might not be hers, it might be mother natures.

M.