Cannot be made perfect without the Fathers

[Casper]

I have a question about this scripture.

...the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other--and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; (D&C 128:18)

Why is it that we cannot be made perfect without our dead, are our dead doing something that helps us to become perfect?

Edited January 11, 2011 by Casper

[Casper]

Sorry the name of the thread was meant to be

cannot be made perfect without the Fathers.

[HEthePrimate]

Don't know what the "official" answer is, if there is one. Should be interesting to see what people say.

"Perfect" is another way of saying "complete." I would not feel complete without my family. If you extend that to include the entire human family, it's easy to see why the dead are important to us, and we to them.

Peace.

[Traveler]

Don't know what the "official" answer is, if there is one. Should be interesting to see what people say.

"Perfect" is another way of saying "complete." I would not feel complete without my family. If you extend that to include the entire human family, it's easy to see why the dead are important to us, and we to them.

Peace.

This is the correct answer. Perfect does imply complete and whole - without anything missing. So many in "Christian" society tend to think of "salvation" as an individual thing. In other words as long as "they" (as an individual) are saved nothing else matters. In truth such thinking does not fit well with the gospel of Christ.

Salvation comes from the same root as salvage. To salvage is to separate the needed and useful from the worthless. Salvation is not complete or honest until all that is good and useful is returned to G-d. I am thankful that G-d has restored the power to his saints to continue and complete the salvation of all mankind that the atonement of Christ not be wasted in any partial or part.

The Traveler

[pam]

Casper, could you reverify that scripture? Section 128 doesn't go up to 180.

[Wingnut]

It's verse 18.

[mordorbund]

I don't have the answer, but I have a hunch it has to do with the mission of John the Baptist. Compare Elijah's mission as outlined in Malachi with John's (Luke 1:17) and compare that with what Moroni prophecied to Joseph Smith (D&C 2). It looks like John has half of the task turning fathers to children, while our generation is tasked with turning children to fathers.

I'm curious if anyone has further thoughts on this (hopefully it's not a threadjack).

[Casper]

This scripture in section 2 is a big part of what leads me to ask the question.

Most often a scripture will say turn the hearts of the fathers to the children this one however says “shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers” (D&C 2:2-3)

So who are the Fathers being spoken of. I believe it can be any one of our family members that has died before us, but more specifically has reference to the promise made to the patriarchs of the first millennium.

And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch; that, when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch which I have caught up unto myself.

And this is mine everlasting covenant, that when thy posterity shall embrace the truth, and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy;

And the general assembly of the church of the firstborn shall come down out of heaven, and possess the earth, and shall have place until the end come. And this is mine everlasting covenant, which I made with thy father Enoch. (JST Gen 9:21-23)

This is the promise I believe it is referring to, that when the posterity of the fathers are keeping “all” the commandments not just to say but to do, (D&C84:57) that they will come down to the earth (Moses 7:62-63) and do something or are already doing something that well help use become perfect in some way that could not be done without them.

[pam]

Most often a scripture will say turn the hearts of the fathers to the children this one however says “shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers” (D&C 2:2-3)

So who are the Fathers being spoken of. I believe it can be any one of our family members that has died before us, but more specifically has reference to the promise made to the patriarchs of the first millennium.

I believe it can refer to both. Promises were made to Abraham and others because of their faithfulness to the covenents. It was and is hoped that the descendents would turn to their forefathers and want the same blessings for themselves and for their dead loved ones.

Moroni introduced the word "plant." I've heard it explained that the Lord, through Elijah, when he appeared to Joseph Smith, didn't plant a full grown tree, but only a seed.

Keep in mind that in those days there were no geneological societies. It wasn't until just a few short years later that the first was founded. Because of the seed planted and with modern technology, it's no longer a seed but a full tree.