Moroni 8:18?

[curtishouse]

I saw a post about this on a different forum and I was wondering about people's thoughts on this verse. If eternal progression is true, how can God be unchanging? Is this speaking of when God has become God and not a time before this before He progressed to Godhood? I'm really trying to understand this and maybe somebody can shed some light on this. God bless.

For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. - Moroni 8:18

[Nathan6329]

What does God need to progress at?

[curtishouse]

What does God need to progress at?

He doesn't. I guess what it comes down to is this...Did God used to be a man? If yes, then I have questions. If no, nevermind.

[Justice]

Jehovah was born mortal and took upon Himself a mortal body. In doing so He changed.

I don't think those are the kinds of changes the scripture is referring to.

[Vanhin]

I'm sure this thread will go every which way before it's over. I hope it doesn't, but Justice says it right. If Jehovah was able to be born into mortality, lay down his life, and then take it up again, and still be God before, during, and after his mortal experience, then I don't see how that would have been much of a feat for his Father.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Nathan6329]

He doesn't. I guess what it comes down to is this...Did God used to be a man? If yes, then I have questions. If no, nevermind.

We don't really know the validity of this rumor because there are some sources that say prophets gave sermons saying he was once a man but they aren't verified sources of our church and it isn't part of the really important documents such as the BOM, D&C, POGP, or the Articles of Faith. There is a difference between individual teachings from the prophets and revelations from the lord.

However, I don't know if Jesus had progression either other than his progression to resurrection. He was born with perfection and was the son of God throughout his earthly life and still is.

So even if God was a mortal man at one time, he still is the supreme creator and didn't have a father before him which is a crap theory that a lot of anti-Mormons claim.

[hordak]

The sermon Joseph gave is in the gospel principles manual. edited

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46).

Some people emphasize

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—... This is the way our Heavenly Father became God.... He was once a man like us;

As in God was a man like us, followed the rules of his God to become exalted and have create worlds without end, have spirit children like we hope to accomplish.

others emphasize

the same as Jesus Christ himself did”

As in he was always God, but played the role of Christ at one time.

It's not really cut and dry, but i think the things both camps can agree on is that God was once a man, we don't know if he began that way or took it on but we know he was once a man.

I would also point out eternal doesn't mean forever as per D&C 19

5Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my cleft hand.

6Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name.

11aEternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

[Nathan6329]

Well the thing that is of the most importance is that God the Father is the supreme creator so there is no teaching that he was once being led by another God even if he was a man. The Bible and Bok of Mormon don't exactly deny the existence of other planets, but they can't have our same teachings because Christ was here on Earth, not on another planet.

[pam]

Why can't they have the same teachings? Is it only because He was crucified on earth? Couldn't he be the redeemer of numerous other planets who all teach the same thing and have the same desires and goals which are to return to our Father in Heaven?

It wouldn't necessarily mean he has to be crucified and be resurrected over and over on each of those planets. He is the Redeemer for all.

Just throwing out that thought.

[pam]

Here is an answer to a question very much like the one just asked by Nathan. This was on the askgramps website. I very much agree with this.

First of all, Jesus is not the creator of the inhabitants of the worlds. All the inhabitants of all the worlds are children of our Father in Heaven, just as He, the Firstborn, is. The Savior was born on this earth rather than any other because it is the most wicked world in all the universe. As he told Enoch,

Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren. (Moses 7:36)

The scriptures tell us that he descended below all things (D&C 88:6), not just the things in this world.

We also understand that He is the Savior of all the worlds, the only Redeemer of all our Father’s children. Therefore, His great atoning sacrifice had to have been an infinite sacrifice (Alma 34:10) to satisfy the demands of justice in paying the price for all the sins of the infinite number of children of our Father in Heaven.

As he is the Savior of all the worlds, the inhabitants of the other worlds must know who He is, and must follow the same gospel requirements in order to qualify for salvation. So the inhabitants of other worlds know of the great atoning sacrifice, which, when it occurred, caused all eternity to be pained, as we learn in D&C 38:11-12-

For all flesh is corrupted before me; and the powers of darkness prevail upon the earth, among the children of men, in the presence of all the hosts of heaven- Which causeth silence to reign, and all eternity is pained, and the angels are waiting the great command to reap down the earth, to gather the tares that they may be burned; and, behold, the enemy is combined.

He has revealed to us that He has visited all the worlds and they know who He is. It must be concluded, therefore, that He established his church among them, gave them the power and authority of the holy priesthood and holy prophets to represent him to the people.

In D&C 88 the Savior speaks of the earth and all the planets (v 43), not just the planets of our solar system, as our earth is probably the only populated planet in the solar system. In verses 51 to 61 He explains that He visits all the planets, likening them to a man who visits in turn each of the workers that he sends into his field. In verse 61 He clarifies that all these groups of workers represent kingdoms, or planets.

Therefore, unto this parable I will liken all these kingdoms, and the inhabitants thereof-every kingdom in its hour, and in its time, and in its season, even according to the decree which God hath made.

So the plan of life and salvation is one and the same for all our Father’s children, and the Firstborn Son, and Only Begotten, is the Savior of all the universe. This is made clear in D&C 76:22-24-

And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father- That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

The preface to that part of the Section reads- “The inhabitants of many worlds are begotten sons and daughters unto God through the atonement of Jesus Christ..” So we are not kept in ignorance of the plan of salvation as it applies to other worlds. It is the same. There is one and only one Savior, one and only one plan of salvation. All who are saved must come to know and accept the Lord, Jesus Christ, who was born into mortality on this earth, as their Savior and Redeemer. And they have revealed to them all that they need to know in order to qualify for all the blessings that our Father has made available for all His children.

Edited January 18, 2011 by pam

[Jenamarie]

I think one of the problems we run into when discussing "doctrines" like this (using quotations on purpose, because it's not a very fleshed-out doctrine) is that we see time as linear. I believe it's in the Pearl of Great Price (Moses?) where God refers to His Work as "one eternal round". I see God's "time" as being a bit like a race track without a start or finish line. His Works can be at any part of the track at any given time, but He is at the center, and sees all of it.

I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but that's how I envision it. I don't doubt that God can be -or be doing- anything He wants or needs to be or do while still being HIM.

[Nathan6329]

Okay but how would they have the teachings of the Bible and the Book of Mormon on other planets? It would make absolutely no sense at all. They would have to have their own doctrines but the same Father.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I saw a post about this on a different forum and I was wondering about people's thoughts on this verse. If eternal progression is true, how can God be unchanging? Is this speaking of when God has become God and not a time before this before He progressed to Godhood? I'm really trying to understand this and maybe somebody can shed some light on this. God bless.

For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. - Moroni 8:18

I'll open another "can of worms" on this topic ... maybe not for most. But when you say "God" are you saying "God" the office or "God" an individual (or defined married couple if you want to call it that)?

[rameumptom]

The major issue is the context of the statement "unchanging." I was reading in Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History last night, when he noted that a drought affected the "entire world." Well, Eusebius would not have known what was going on throughout the world, or if, indeed, the entire world was suffering from drought. It was a generalization from his experiential view.

So it is with the word, "unchanging." In man's history on earth, God HAS been unchanging. For us, he has always been God. Whether he still progresses or not is immaterial in his relationship with us, because that relationship does not change.

Chances are Moroni 8:18 is not extending back into pre-Big Bang periods of time. In fact, I would suppose the Nephites may not have had such concepts to even consider. They may not have understood God's former progression as Spirit and mortal, as such ideas may not have been necessary for them to know. As far as they were concerned, he was always the same since the days of Adam. And that is what was important to them.

[mordorbund]

What do you mean by eternal progression? I think I've only heard that phrase in relation to our journey to godhood. But I'll play along and assume that it's been used in relation to God. In what way does God progress (and that eternally)? Moses 1:39 - he gains additional glory from our salvation. Does that in any way make him unchanging so that we can no longer have faith in him? Not hardly.

I obviously read the OP differently from everyone else, maybe he can post again and clarify where the seeming contradiction is.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I saw a post about this on a different forum and I was wondering about people's thoughts on this verse. If eternal progression is true, how can God be unchanging? Is this speaking of when God has become God and not a time before this before He progressed to Godhood? I'm really trying to understand this and maybe somebody can shed some light on this. God bless.

For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. - Moroni 8:18

I think "unchanging" refers more to the course and direction He takes as opposed to where He is heading or the result of His purposes. It references Alma 7:20 which says it a little more clearly; "I perceive that it has been made known unto you, by the testimony of his word, that he cannot walk in crooked paths; neither doth he vary from that which he hath said; neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left, or from that which is right to that which is wrong; therefore, his course is one eternal round."

... In other words, God doesn't choose one way then change His mind and do it a different way. To me, I think that is all the "unchangeable" is referring to in Moroni 8:18

[Just_A_Guy]

Okay but how would they have the teachings of the Bible and the Book of Mormon on other planets? It would make absolutely no sense at all. They would have to have their own doctrines but the same Father.

They might not have them compiled in the same precise manner; but the core doctrines would all be there.

Hypothetically speaking, the Nephites could function as an example of how such a society would still come to know the Gospel: physically separated from the Lord's mortal ministry and from any news reports arising therefrom, but still able to know the fundamentals of His lifetime via revelations to their own prophets and still (at some point) receiving visitations from Him directly.

[curtishouse]

What do you mean by eternal progression? I think I've only heard that phrase in relation to our journey to godhood. But I'll play along and assume that it's been used in relation to God. In what way does God progress (and that eternally)? Moses 1:39 - he gains additional glory from our salvation. Does that in any way make him unchanging so that we can no longer have faith in him? Not hardly.

I obviously read the OP differently from everyone else, maybe he can post again and clarify where the seeming contradiction is.

What I mean by eternal progression is exactly the same as you believe. Eternal progression applied to God as well, did it not? God does not progress when He is God but didn't he progress from being a man to becoming a God? Are there steps in between being a man and becoming a god?

All I'm trying to do is understand this verse. I might be misunderstanding but it sounds like you're being defensive. I hope that isn't the case though. There is no need to be.

The main point of the question was this. If God started as a man and eventually became God, how is He unchanging? Was He only unchanging after He reached Godhood?

[hordak]

What I mean by eternal progression is exactly the same as you believe. Eternal progression applied to God as well, did it not? God does not progress when He is God but didn't he progress from being a man to becoming a God? Are there steps in between being a man and becoming a god?

All I'm trying to do is understand this verse. I might be misunderstanding but it sounds like you're being defensive. I hope that isn't the case though. There is no need to be.

The main point of the question was this. If God started as a man and eventually became God, how is He unchanging? Was He only unchanging after He reached Godhood?

Like i said before not everyone believes that but My father is my father. This is unchanging. He was a child himself, i have grown and become a father myself. But he being my father has not changed. Never will.

[bytebear]

To my understanding the label "god" is given to those who continue and progress forever. Damnation is an end to progression. Therefore we have two paths, one with a dead end, and another without. God, our Father created this planet and our spirits, and as such he progresses through our progression. He grows in glory because we become glorious. And, "ye are gods" because we have not yet been damned. So we are all gods until proven otherwise. But we haven't progressed to the level of our Father, but we are taught that we will inherit all that he has, and will sit on his throne. The implication is pretty clear that we will eventually progress to where He is now.

[Seminarysnoozer]

To my understanding the label "god" is given to those who continue and progress forever. Damnation is an end to progression. Therefore we have two paths, one with a dead end, and another without. God, our Father created this planet and our spirits, and as such he progresses through our progression. He grows in glory because we become glorious. And, "ye are gods" because we have not yet been damned. So we are all gods until proven otherwise. But we haven't progressed to the level of our Father, but we are taught that we will inherit all that he has, and will sit on his throne. The implication is pretty clear that we will eventually progress to where He is now.

Thanks, I was about to say something similar to this. I think "Godhood" in some respects could be a description of a species that has the ability to gain glory eternally. So, "progression to Godhood" to me seems a little different than saying "progression to becoming a God". This is all probably semantics but I would agree that we now all are Gods except those that have purposely stopped their desire to eternally gain glory. To me, "progression to Godhood" is like saying we are undergoing "progression to becoming Human". A baby is a human just as much as a grandmother is human. We are the same species as God and so we are all Gods in that respect, unless a person has chosen to not continue their development, such as Satan did.

I think some people get hung up about "progression" on this forum because they carry a concept that is hard for me to understand which is an ideal of a God that does not experience the passage of time. I believe in a God that experiences the passage of time which is a requirement for progression by its very definition. There is no experience in something that doesn't also experience the passage of time which would make God a God that lacks emotion and reaction to events. It would make God an unconcerned God as well. For example, If I have a 5 year old daughter then I would not be concerned about her ability to reach the age of 2, nor would I celebrate her 2 year old birthday if she is already 5 (If there is no difference for me in time between when she is 1 versus 5 years old).

I don't know the purposes of God, I am not trying to claim I do, but I do believe that God has not yet experienced the joy He will have the moment I am admitted into the Celestial Kingdom, if I am fortunate enough to make it there. He may be aware of it or not but He will not celebrate it with me until it happens and therefore He progresses with my progression. This is the Godly nature of families. This is my belief and part of my drive to do good, to give glory to God, as the angels say "glory to God in the highest". If one believes that God does not react in someway to what we do at that moment then there is nothing given to God in the highest, ever, as it was already given or taken, making God a static God. I don't understand the non-experiencing, unemotional, non-progression of time, non-endless works God.

[Backroads]

Okay but how would they have the teachings of the Bible and the Book of Mormon on other planets? It would make absolutely no sense at all. They would have to have their own doctrines but the same Father.

Obviously they would not have the Bible and Book of Mormon as we have them, being that those tend to be histories. I doubt Brother Su-Phong of Planet X cares about the Book of Mormon. Not his planet's history.

It would seem that if other worlds and peoples exist and they are the children of our Heavenly Father, the same or similar Plan of Salvation would extend to them. The principals we believe would be the same.

Now I could see where the action of doctrines and principals would be different depending on the uniqueness of this world and people and their scriptures might have very different stories, but I would think the end result would be the same.

[mordorbund]

What I mean by eternal progression is exactly the same as you believe. Eternal progression applied to God as well, did it not? God does not progress when He is God but didn't he progress from being a man to becoming a God? Are there steps in between being a man and becoming a god?

All I'm trying to do is understand this verse. I might be misunderstanding but it sounds like you're being defensive. I hope that isn't the case though. There is no need to be.

The main point of the question was this. If God started as a man and eventually became God, how is He unchanging? Was He only unchanging after He reached Godhood?

I'm sorry if I came off defensive. That wasn't my intent at all.

The heart of this question is for us to explain in what way was God once a man on an earth, and at the same time unchanging (presumably in his God-nature).

First, I'll point out that we don't need to ask this question really. One of God's attributes is that he's unchanging. End of story. Oh, by the way, Joseph Smith said that God was once a man, but nothing more has been revealed on that. Great. We can continue to keep these two compartmentalized until something more is revealed. It is enough to know that the God you believe in is truly unchanging. You can rely on him to exercise judgment, justice, and mercy. You can unfailingly rely on him to have all power and all knowledge. That would probably be the simplest answer.

Now for the curious, in what way was God once a man, and still God? Let's speculate. Well, for those fans of the infinite regression of gods theory, along with those who emphasize the "same as Jesus did" part of the JS quote, we have our answer by looking at Jesus. Jesus, in whom is the fulness of the Godhead, was once a man. No Christian seems to have any problems reconciling this in the God-Man Jesus. Like a mathematician, I will refer you to that proof since I've reduced this case to that one.

If you tend to think God was once a man like me, who sinned and repented and found grace to where he is today, I can see where you might find that problematic. I would remind you once again that God, from the beginning of creation until the final winding-up scene is unchanging. As long as God has been deity, he has had the God-nature, and that has been since long before your time.

If you don't hold to the infinite-regress theory, we can look once again at the life of Christ, but without the Atonement. If God is the only one in his generation, and his was the only life on that earth, then there were no sins to be atoned for. Once again, the same ways in which Jesus was God-Man, was the Father also God-Man and worthy of our worship.

And finally I remind you that this is all speculation. If any one of these ideas is causing you grief, I'll tell you flat out that it probably isn't true. Because of God's nature, we can have faith in him. I also believe that God was once a man, but little more has been taught on that.

[Seminarysnoozer]

What I mean by eternal progression is exactly the same as you believe. Eternal progression applied to God as well, did it not? God does not progress when He is God but didn't he progress from being a man to becoming a God? Are there steps in between being a man and becoming a god?

All I'm trying to do is understand this verse. I might be misunderstanding but it sounds like you're being defensive. I hope that isn't the case though. There is no need to be.

The main point of the question was this. If God started as a man and eventually became God, how is He unchanging? Was He only unchanging after He reached Godhood?

I think this is much simpler but it may just be my simple mind. "Unchanging" just refers to the course not the point at which one is along the course. Being a "God" refers to the ability to have eternal progression. So long as a person is on that course still then they could be considered a God, and an unchanging God at that. If I take myself off that course then I am no longer a "God". In the pre-mortal life we all progressed until we couldn't go any further without going through a probationary state and receiving a body. Even though this state is a fallen and imperfect state, I still have not changed my unchanging path towards a fullness of joy and eternal increase, unless I choose not to continue by not repenting and following Christ. But If I do what Christ has asked and receive a place in the Celestial Kingdom then my course in unchanging, that of eternal progression. The refiners fire of this life is part of that unchanging course. We were told before we came here that it was needed to reach that end and I still believe it.

There was another opinion given though in pre-mortal life, that to become a "God" and have everything God has does not require this fallen state. I didn't believe that then and I don't believe that now.

[Justice]

There was another opinion given though in pre-mortal life, that to become a "God" and have everything God has does not require this fallen state. I didn't believe that then and I don't believe that now.

Amen.