Time Magazine Article

[Guest ApostleKnight]

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If you became a God of your own planet, would the people on that planet start to worship you instead of the Heavenly Father/Jesus that you now worship?

Yes Pushka, that is what LDS believe. At least I was taught that in new member discussions. If you can't find a reference to it, let me know, but there are several (and yes, they are LDS sources).

Really? Because I can't remember ever reading that (and I have read my share of related material). I'd be most interested in a source or two for this statement of LDS doctrine, because I don't think that it is. Many people might say they think that'll happen, or think it's true, but I've never once read in any official LDS publication/scripture that the righteous will receive a planetary allowance. :) I eagerly await your sources.

[Dr T]

Hello Puska,

That is a great question! This is a great example of what I was (ineptly) trying to say in post #25 in the "I think we should talk about Jesus" thread. Questions like this are reasons we should try to understand God's position on what is being revealed to us. Are we here, on earth, to worship God? Is the whole meaning of life to show gratitude, reverence, and praise to God almighty? What does the Bible say about our existence? I’m really asking.

Does the belief that becoming a god and having others worship us detract from all praises do to the one and only true God? Playing devils advocate, (which I often do) I think, "Well, I want my kids to grow up and have their own family and experience the same joy I have with my four children" as a response to this question, but the analogy is poor. I am a human and not made to be praised. God is God and worthy of praise (according to the Bible) so the analogy quickly breaks down and the concept quickly seems to become the antithesis of what God demands from us. God, being a jealous God, would he want us to be worshiped? Why did Satan fall? What did Satan want? It doesn’t follow.

P.S. can someone tell me how to put a link in a post that goes directly to that part of the thread? Is it possible to put in a link to post #25 on the I think we should talk about Jesus thread and once you click on it you’re taken straight there?

Thank you all,

Dr. T

[Ray]

Dr. T.,

The purpose of worship is not to be worshipped but to live for the “thing” you worship.

Or in other words, to worship some “thing” means to adore and love and reverence and respect and devote yourself to that “thing” to show that that “thing” is your reason for “being”, so if you don’t want to become “like” Jesus then why would you worship Him?

And btw, if you're thinking of coming back with the response of saying that you worship Him to show your "thanks" to Him, then please try to describe or in some way tell me "what" you are thankful for.

Oh, and one more thing. I will ALWAYS worship Jesus, no matter how perfect I become, because I will still know, and then more than now, that I became perfect through Him.

And Yes, if and when my children ever ask me, and even sometimes when they don't, I will also tell them about Jesus.

[prisonchaplain]

Thanks Shanstress..I thought that might be a delicate subject to raise with the LDS as on some forums some LDS posters appear to be trying to deny that they expect to inherit planets of their own etc.

I feel almost certain that there will be some non LDS Christians who will regard this as a blasphemous hope and will have scripture (non LDS of course!) to back up their claims. I would be interested to hear LDS and non LDS thoughts about this.

If I'm not mistaken, LDS religion Prof. Robinson (BYU) says that writings about exalted LDS inheriting planets and becoming gods of them falls within the realm of speculation. In other words, it might be believed by many, and even taught by some, but that the beliefs are not official doctrine based on clearcut scripture. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

[Ray]

P.S. can someone tell me how to put a link in a post that goes directly to that part of the thread? Is it possible to put in a link to post #25 on the I think we should talk about Jesus thread and once you click on it you’re taken straight there?

You can reference the url to the thread, the same way your can for any other link, but there isn't a url to a specific post.

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Thanks Shanstress..I thought that might be a delicate subject to raise with the LDS as on some forums some LDS posters appear to be trying to deny that they expect to inherit planets of their own etc.

I feel almost certain that there will be some non LDS Christians who will regard this as a blasphemous hope and will have scripture (non LDS of course!) to back up their claims. I would be interested to hear LDS and non LDS thoughts about this.

If I'm not mistaken, LDS religion Prof. Robinson (BYU) says that writings about exalted LDS inheriting planets and becoming gods of them falls within the realm of speculation. In other words, it might be believed by many, and even taught by some, but that the beliefs are not official doctrine based on clearcut scripture. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Much has been given, and much has not, and I believe you are right about that.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

God, being a jealous God, would he want us to be worshiped?

I guess it depends on how you look at it. Using a rather secular analogy, the doctrine of becoming gods and being worshipped while remaining subservient to and forever in debt to God, is sorta like pyramid marketing (I guess every business is a pyramid really, big boss on top, lots of workers at the base). Just because the people below someone in a money pyramid make a lot of sales, it doesn't bother the person above them because they get a cut of the proceeds. Similarly, would God mind if we were worshipped, if we turned right around and said, "Well I couldn't do anything worth being worshipped without my Father and Brother in heaven," hence passing on more praise to Him than we could tender by our lonesome? :) I'm not really arguing for this point, I just wanted to throw out an alternate viewpoint to spark thought and perhaps more discussion.

Why did Satan fall? What did Satan want?

Well Satan's fatal mistake was wanting to be worshipped instead of God. In essence he wanted to disthrone God, hijack heaven and rule all of us with an iron fist (much of this is explained further in LDS scripture along with the Holy Bible). I think that's a little different than someone becoming like God, potentially being worshipped for having qualities like God, and in any event passing on that worship to God. Don't you?

I think J.S. Bach said it best. On every piece of music he composed, at either the top or bottom of the page, he wrote the acronym S.D.G. This stands for the Latin phrase, "Soli Deo Gloria," which means simply: "To God alone the glory." In the event that some exalted child of God was worshipped and then "gave the credit" to God, I'm not really sure God would feel inclined to be "jealous." But then I don't know for sure so I won't draw a line in the doctrinal sand. Just food for thought (hope y'all brought an appetite).

[shanstress70]

Really? Because I can't remember ever reading that (and I have read my share of related material). I'd be most interested in a source or two for this statement of LDS doctrine, because I don't think that it is. Many people might say they think that'll happen, or think it's true, but I've never once read in any official LDS publication/scripture that the righteous will receive a planetary allowance. :) I eagerly await your sources.

Here are a few of the sources I was referring to...

And as I said, I was taught this in new member discussions.

1- D&C section 132:18-22

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

2- Gospel Principles, Salt Lake City: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1988. It teaches, "WE CAN BECOME GODS LIKE OUR HEAVENLY FATHER. This is exaltation" (p.290).

After a discussion about the need to keep all of God's commandments, this book also teaches, "This is the way OUR HEAVENLY FATHER BECAME A GOD" (p.293).

3- Ludlow, Daniel ed. Latter-day Prophets Speak. Logan, UT: Bookcraft, 1988.

Lorenzo Snow (fifth Mormon prophet): "AS MAN NOW IS, OUR GOD WAS; AS NOW GOD IS, SO MAN MAY BE..." (p.72).

and, "We are the offspring of our Father in Heaven and we possess in our spiritual organizations THE SAME CAPABILITIES, POWERS AND FACULTIES THAT OUR FATHER POSSESSES, although in an infantile state" (p.276).

4- Smith, Joseph Fielding. Doctrines of Salvation. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954.

He writes about Joseph Smith, "The Prophet taught that OUR FATHER HAD A FATHER and so on" (Vol.1, p.12). Further, "Joseph Smith taught A PLURALITY OF GODS, and that man by obeying the commandments of God and keeping the whole law will eventually reach the power and exaltation by which he ALSO WILL BECOME A GOD" (Vol.1, p.98).

[Outshined]

Still nothing in there about having a planet of your own or being worshipped as a god.

PC is right, any ideas of having your own planet and being worshipped are speculation.

[Dr T]

Not much time (sorry),

A quick repose, AK said,

...Similarly, would God mind if we were worshipped, if we turned right around and said, "Well I couldn't do anything worth being worshipped without my Father and Brother in heaven," hence passing on more praise to Him than we could tender by our lonesome? I'm not really arguing for this point, I just wanted to throw out an alternate viewpoint to spark thought and perhaps more discussion.

My question is, "does this really happen?" At this point in time you only worship one God. Does the praise get passed on to the god that preceded him in any way? Earlier you said that you don’t even talk about or even think much about other gods.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[shanstress70]

Still nothing in there about having a planet of your own or being worshipped as a god.

PC is right, any ideas of having your own planet and being worshipped are speculation.

Guess I always assumed that 'being a god' means that you are worshipped. Actually, after looking up the definition for the word 'god', that is what it means... and there was plenty in those references about man eventually 'being a god'.

god - deity: any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force

Anyway, AK, I don't consider that to be 'speculation'.

Fixed typo

[Outshined]

Guess I always assumed that 'being a god' means that you are worshipped. Actually, after looking up the definition for the word 'god', that is what it means... and there was plenty in those references about man eventually 'being a god'.

god - deity: any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force

Anyway, AK, I don't consider that to be 'speculation'.

And yet I have to view it as speculation, as no mention is made in LDS theology about having your "own planet." Your personal interpretation may include such, but I've yet to see it in black and white, just as there is no mention of worship, and so my interpretation is different.

Also, the dictionary gives another definition of "god": A being of supernatural powers or attributes. Something to consider...

When anyone can provide an example of LDS doctrine stating that we will be worshipped by someone or have a planet of our own, let us know, as I would honestly like to see it.

Some reading on the subject:

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/a...ltation_eom.htm

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/g...Godhood_EOM.htm

[shanstress70]

And yet I have to view it as speculation, as no mention is made in LDS theology about having your "own planet." Your personal interpretation may include such, but I've yet to see it in black and white, just as there is no mention of worship, and so my interpretation is different.

Also, the dictionary gives another definition of "god": A being of supernatural powers or attributes. Something to consider...

When anyone can provide an example of LDS doctrine stating that we will be worshipped by someone or have a planet of our own, let us know, as I would honestly like to see it.

3 of the 6 definitions for 'god' include the word 'worship' at dictionary.com, a very widely used online dictionary (just making sure no one thinks I'm using an anti-mormon dictionary!). Here is the link to that definition.

So no, I still maintain that it is not speculation, nor my interpretation that LDS believe they will one day become gods who will be worshipped.

What's the big deal about it anyway? Do those of you with opposing viewpoints to my own have a hard time believing it? Were you not told about it in discussions?

Not trying to argue with you guys, but it's a pretty well known belief, at least in my circle of LDS friends.

[pushka]

Hi again Shanstress70. Thanks for coming back with your references. I suppose I take the phrase 'then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.' with repeated reference to something being SUBJECT to them as meaning that the angels that are subject to them would be worshipping them as a 'higher being'? Maybe my interpretation of the meaning of being subject to something is a bit too loose.

I am interested in the origins of the rumour about having a planet of your own. How come this has grown so much that many LDS and non LDS believe that this is LDS doctrine, who was that first person who made mention to there being the possibility of having your own planet? In order to have angels being subject to you, then surely you must own some sort of land? Perhaps it is the wording from Joseph Smith's own King Follet Sermon which has led to the confusion and rumours, I apologise for the long quote which I think sums up this part of the question:

'In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on AN EARTH, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

Eternal Life to Know God and Jesus Christ

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power— to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, AND TO SIT IN GLORY, as do THOSE WHO SIT ENTHRONED IN EVERLASTING POWER. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.

The Righteous to Dwell in Everlasting Burnings

These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; AND WHEN I GET MY KINGDOM, I shall present it to My Father, SO THAT HE MAY OBTAIN KINGDOM UPON KINGDOM, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. SO THAT JESUS TREADS IN THE TRACKS OF HIS FATHER, AND INHERITS WHAT GOD DID BEFORE; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said.

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of anything that is not contained in the Bible. If I do, I think there are so many over-wise men here that they would cry "treason" and put me to death. So I will go to the old Bible and turn commentator today.'

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermon...olletsermon.htm

Please note that I have capitalised the words/phrases which I feel may have led people to believe that they will inherit planets...an earth, kingdoms, and be worshipped, words such as be enthroned in everlasting power.

Am I right in believing that there is some controversy over Joseph Smith's King Follet Sermon? Could someone explain it to me please?

[Ray]

Am I right in believing that there is some controversy over Joseph Smith's King Follet Sermon? Could someone explain it to me please?

Yes, there is "controversy" over this sermon, and it is usually made a big deal by those who do not understand what it means. And basically, the misunderstandings come from those who think that we who are exalted will at sometime be above the need to worship Jesus and our Father in heaven.

And btw, I believe the "worship" I will get then will be an improvement to the "worship" I get now, as my children "honor" me as their Father.

[pushka]

Thanks Ray. I think I gathered from the article, and others I've tried searching, that when we are 'worshipped' ourselves, we do still worship, above all, God/Jesus Christ.

The questions that I mainly had regarding that sermon were the references to inheriting our own Earths, Kingdoms as Jesus stated he did when he became exalted. Can you give me any insight into those issues please..from the text of the King Follet Sermon, how this might have been misinterpreted to mean the above, and what it really means?

[Ray]

Basically, the misunderstanding you seem to be have now would be eliminated if instead of thinking that at some point we will receive "our own" planets, we will instead receive all that Jesus has, and all that our Father has, as we become joint-heirs of our Father through Christ.

Or in other words, we will not receive "our own" planets, because everything we have will also be Theirs, even if we do create many planets in "heaven".

And btw, the idea of becoming an heir to our Father in heaven is a little different than it is on Earth, because on Earth people usually die to give their "inheritance", but our Father won't die, because He lives forever and ever, so we get what we'll get from Him while He's living. :)

[pushka]

Hi again Ray. I'm sorry if I appear to be nit picking here, but by stating

'even if we do create many planets in "heaven".' you appear to be indicating that we will be (for lack of a better phrase) inheriting planets, and will be co-owning them with God/Jesus Christ...that still interprets to me that we will have our own planets...

The whole interpretation of the word Kingdoms here is confusing the issue to me..and the reference to God dwelling on AN earth...which would suggest that there is more than 1 earth, and that Jesus took his Earth when he became exalted, and therefore we shall do the same when we become exalted...'heaven' is like the universe, and each Earth that God/Jesus/We own is a planet within that Universe, we each own our own planet (earth), but God (Heavenly Father) owns the whole universe....or leases us the planets like some sort of landlord who owns an estate and rents us the properties. Does that make any more sense?

The reason I mentioned the word Kingdom confusing me is that I've been led to believe that the word Kingdom in Mormonism is relating to one of the 3 degrees of Heaven...Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial...rather than it being seen as an earth or planet.

[Ray]

You still seem to be holding onto your idea of "ownership", as if we will have something of "our own", but everything we have and everything we will have is now and will always be God's.

And btw, it's not as if you are totally and completely wrong in some of your facts about this idea, but the difference in our way of thinking about it is very important.

Oh, and on your other idea, Yes, each kingdom consists of many planets of a certain order or degree of glory, and the Celestial kingdom consists of the most glorious planets above the others in "heaven".

And btw, your idea that "heaven" consists of only "this" universe has not been confirmed to us by our Father in heaven. Or in other words, there are other possibilities, including "dimensions" that we cannot "see" on this Earth and other planets.

[pushka]

Hi Ray. Yes I do appear to be obsessed with the idea of ownership, and that isn't the main question that people are asking about, I think...I think the whole idea of say, inhabitting a planet, rather than just existing in the same place as God is what is the confusing issue...will we be with God as in Heaven being like the Universe now, (or the housing estate), and yet be on a planet with angels subject to us at the same time? or will we just be in a place within Heaven, not necessarily on a different planet, like in a different country, for instance, and we will be the God of that particular part of Heaven?

[Ray]

As I said when I edited my post, that knowledge has not been revealed to us yet, but the possibilities you suggested are possible.

And btw, if you haven't noticed from the scriptures in the Bible before, this Earth was created with heaven.

Or in other words, there is heaven on this Earth as well as on other planets in existence, and there is more on this Earth than we can see... which means not only are there planets and heavens which we can see with our "natural" eyes, there may be other planets and other dimensions in existence that we can't see... right now.

And btw, as the Prophet Joseph Smith said in your quote:

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.

[Outshined]

3 of the 6 definitions for 'god' include the word 'worship' at dictionary.com, a very widely used online dictionary (just making sure no one thinks I'm using an anti-mormon dictionary!).

And three do not. Of course, the Church has yet to canonize a particular dictionary definition...

The other three definitions in my dictionary (Merriam-Webster):

2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers; one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality

3 : a person or thing of supreme value

4 : a powerful ruler

So no, I still maintain that it is not speculation, nor my interpretation that LDS believe they will one day become gods who will be worshipped.

And I have to disagree with that particular interpretation, and maintain that it is certainly speculation, as it is not doctrinal. B)

What's the big deal about it anyway? Do those of you with opposing viewpoints to my own have a hard time believing it? Were you not told about it in discussions?

We aren't making a big deal about it, and no, it is not taught in discussions (or anywhere else in LDS theology) that we will ever have our own planets.

Not trying to argue with you guys, but it's a pretty well known belief, at least in my circle of LDS friends.

And yet it is not found in LDS doctrine. B) Read the links I provided for a clearer idea of what the Church teaches about this.

Yes, there is "controversy" over this sermon, and it is usually made a big deal by those who do not understand what it means. And basically, the misunderstandings come from those who think that we who are exalted will at sometime be above the need to worship Jesus and our Father in heaven.

And btw, I believe the "worship" I will get then will be an improvement to the "worship" I get now, as my children "honor" me as their Father.

Exactly.

[pushka]

Ray, thank you for bearing with me for so long...I have just read your amended post, and thank you for clearing up at least my question of where the rumours began about having a planet to rule over when we become exalted.

Outshined, if you read the quotes from the King Follet Sermon and still don't believe that this would, perhaps, mislead some into believing that they inherit earths to rule over when they become exalted, please let me know, and let me know how you would interpret Joseph Smith's words in that Sermon..thanks.

[Outshined]

Outshined, if you read the quotes from the King Follet Sermon and still don't believe that this would, perhaps, mislead some into believing that they inherit earths to rule over when they become exalted, please let me know, and let me know how you would interpret Joseph Smith's words in that Sermon..thanks.

Oh, I agree that sermon can be interpreted that way; my point is simply that there is no such doctrine in the LDS Church that we will have our own planet.

BTW, that is really a wonderful sermon; it's a shame that the majority of it is ignored by most people to focus on one or two lines.

[Ray]

Ray, thank you for bearing with me for so long...I have just read your amended post, and thank you for clearing up at least my question of where the rumours began about having a planet to rule over when we become exalted.

You're very welcome, and while I certainly hope you will be among those who are and will be exalted, if you do want to be among the "we" in your quote, I suggest that you do what you can do RIGHT NOW! :)

And btw, in case you or anybody else doesn't know what to do, the FIRST step is to "ask" God for His assurance of the truth, called Faith, about all the things that you don't "know" right now, and the second step is to Repent of your sins, or be the best person you know how to be, until you learn there is nobody better than our Savior.

And btw, notice that I'm not telling you that you should join His "Church", but I do hope that will happen soon. :)

[pushka]

Thank you Ray and Outshined...Ray, I will let you know if and when I convert to the LDS faith! Thanks for your suggestions!