Trinity Revisited

[Justice]

I have enjoyed the recent thread about the Trinity. It is something I have tried to understand for most of my life.

I have a friend at work who sits in my office at lunch and we discuss religion. He believes in the Trinity, I do not. So, I have followed the other thread with great interest.

Last night, as I sat pondering the topic, I think I came to an understanding of what it would take to believe in the Trinity. I was looking at it wrong, and trying to find the error in the wrong place.

The difference isn't in who or what we believe God is, because both sides believe He is everything mentioned in the Bible. To say, "Well the Bible says.." in response to someone else is nothing but a jab or shot intending to imply the other person has misinterpreted the words.

Last night, I backed up a bit, before you even open the Bible.

What do Trinitarians believe "spirit" is?

What do "LDS" believe "spirit" is?

You will find that these answers will drive how the words are interpreted.

If you believe spirit is not matter, and that it exists as more of a thought than a body, then the logical outcome of reading the Bible will be the Trinity.

If you believe spirit is matter, and that God's spirit body is matter; confined to a location as a Being, then the logical outcome for you will be that He is a different Being than the Son.

I am convinced this is the root of the difference.

[LDSChristian]

I have enjoyed the recent thread about the Trinity. It is something I have tried to understand for most of my life.

I have a friend at work who sits in my office at lunch and we discuss religion. He believes in the Trinity, I do not. So, I have followed the other thread with great interest.

Last night, as I sat pondering the topic, I think I came to an understanding of what it would take to believe in the Trinity. I was looking at it wrong, and trying to find the error in the wrong place.

The difference isn't in who or what we believe God is, because both sides believe He is everything mentioned in the Bible. To say, "Well the Bible says.." in response to someone else is nothing but a jab or shot intending to imply the other person has misinterpreted the words.

Last night, I backed up a bit, before you even open the Bible.

What do Trinitarians believe "spirit" is?

What do "LDS" believe "spirit" is?

You will find that these answers will drive how the words are interpreted.

If you believe spirit is not matter, and that it exists as more of a thought than a body, then the logical outcome of reading the Bible will be the Trinity.

If you believe spirit is matter, and that God's spirit body is matter; confined to a location as a Being, then the logical outcome for you will be that He is a different Being than the Son.

I am convinced this is the root of the difference.

Mormonism and the nature of God/God is a Spirit - FAIRMormon

Just look at the site I gave. That should explain it.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus Christ is praying to God the Father and acknowledging Him as the only true God.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[Guest]

Justice, awesome!

Edited January 18, 2011 by anatess

[prisonchaplain]

You are on to something, Justice. I think of how we speak of the Spirit around my church. "Wow...that was a great service today--the Spirit of God was just thick in the place!" "You could sure feel God's presence today!" "The Spirit really swept over us today." "I could really sense God in the house!" etc. You are right...we just never envision God being limited to a body, except when we speak of Jesus.

[Vanhin]

You are on to something, Justice. I think of how we speak of the Spirit around my church. "Wow...that was a great service today--the Spirit of God was just thick in the place!" "You could sure feel God's presence today!" "The Spirit really swept over us today." "I could really sense God in the house!" etc. You are right...we just never envision God being limited to a body, except when we speak of Jesus.

We also speak the same way, but we understand that what we are describing is the influence of the Holy Ghost. To latter-day saints, the Holy Ghost is a divine person of spirit, like the Savior was before he was born into mortality.

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. (D&C 131:7-8)

Because we claim that spirit is also matter, only more fine or pure, if we were to behold the Holy Ghost right now (with purer eyes), we would see that he is a Man, without a physical body. His spirit body has hands, arms, legs, feet, a head, and so forth, just like Jesus Christ did when He appeared to the brother of Jared before his mortal advent (See Ether 3). Our spirit bodies are also in the image and likeness of God, being his offspring. Our physical bodies resemble our spirits, only they have the shortcomings and blemishes of mortality.

We don't think of spirits as intangible wisps that don't take up space in existence. :) I'm sure you have read it before but that Ether 3 reference is really interesting reading concerning our understanding of spirits.

Regards,

Vanhin

[beefche]

We also believe that the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit is a spirit for a reason:

D&C 130:22

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

[Traveler]

As a scientist, a lot can be explained about what a spirit is, from a scientific point of view concerning consistency (isotropic) if spirit matter is matter that includes in its existence at least one additional dimension separate from our 3 dimensional physical self. It is possible that spirit could be 3 dimensional being as well as long as one or more (but less than all 3) dimensions existed outside of our 3 dimensions.

Mathematically I can solve the problems of space time in relationship to G-d if G-d is a being that is capable of utilizing at least one additional dimension. But this creates problems for Trinitarians and several other concepts. For example - G-d may seem formless in our dimensional space but it would not correct that G-d is without body or discernable parts (as we are in 3 dimensional space time).

But under such concept G-d would have access to unlimited power but so would any other such being. So here is a thought. Perhaps there is a intelligence (light of truth) factor that maintains “balance” that is necessary for existence on such a plane. In other words only a G-d like unto G-d could so exist - therefore he must train us to be like him before we could exist in such a state that would be sustainable. This would mean that being one with G-d is more than just a theological theory but an actual reality that cannot be circumvented (even by divine miracle) Thus being like G-d must be achieved for all that live “with” G-d.

The Traveler

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Here is how my last discussion went on the topic of the Trinity and Mormonism.

My question: You believe that God is spirit right?

evangelical Christian: Yes, He is spirit.

My Question: Okay, keeping that in mind, The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are of one essence and substance right? This is according to the Nicene Creed and the Athenasian Creed right?

evangelical Christian: Yes, that is true, they are of the same essence and substance.

My Question: Have you carefully read the Nicene Creed?

evangelical Christian: Umm, no why?

My Question/Response: Well, if you had not really taken the time to read what the Nicene Creed says, then how are you confident in knowing exactly what it says as to the nature of The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit?

This was where he started floundering. Keep in mind how evangelical Christians view the Trinity and how the Latter-day Saints view the Godhead and the Nicene Creed (and it is important to follow this).

evangelical Christian: I am not really sure, but I know the bible says that the Father, Son and Spirit are one manifested in three different beings and not three separate Gods.

My question: If I were to share with you exactly what the Nicene Creed actually says, would you say that what it says is Biblical or Unbiblical?

evangelical Christian: It is biblical, why would it be unbiblical.

I then pull out a printed version of the Nicene Creed and then had the person read the first part of it:

"We believe in One God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, of all that is, seen and unseen"

I then had him stop right there and then re-read that first part. My question went along the lines of this: So, who created the Heavens and the Earth - According to the Nicene Creed?

evangelical Christian: Well it says here that God, the Father created Heaven and Earth.

Okay, so let us see what the Bible has to say. We know that Genesis says that God created Heaven and Earth right?

Evangelical Christian: That is correct.

My question/response: Okay, but later on, we have several New Testament Passages that say something different. For instance - John 1:1 says that in the Beginning was the Word, that this word was with God, and that this word was God. It then goes on to say that the Word created all things in Heaven and Earth, that which is seen and unseen (I then point to the Passage in my NASB version). Now, we know that John is not talking about the Father right?

evangelical Christian: Right, because John is talking about Christ, and that Christ is the word.

My question: So you agree that Christ was in the Beginning with God right?

evangelical Christian: Yes, and that he is God.

Here is where it got really interesting.

My question: Okay, so in Genesis, God creates Heaven and Earth. John says that the Word was with God, and that the Word is God and that the Word created all things.

evangelical Christian: Yes, that is correct, but if you go further...

My response/question: Yes, let us go further. John states that this word came into the world by becoming flesh. Now, who came into the world by taking upon himself mortal flesh?

evangelical Christian: Well Christ did, but...

My response: No but's we are analyzing the Nicene creed here in light of the Trinitarian doctrine and teaching. We have already established that God is spirit. We have established that God is the Maker of Heaven and Earth. We have established that God was the word and that this word existed with God and that the Word was God from the beginning who created all things. We also know that the Word became flesh according to the Testimony of John. So, if God became flesh, then that means God could no longer be considered spirit correct?

evangelical Christian: Well yeah, if you are interpreting it that way, but you see..

My response: No, it is not a matter of how I am interpreting it, it is a matter of what we are reading and seeing it say. Do you not see that the Nicene Creed says that God is the Almighty Father, maker of Heaven and Earth? (I had him read it again, then read the Genesis account, and then read John 1). According to the first part of the Nicene creed, Genesis 1 and John 1, who is the maker of Heaven and Earth? And, who came and took upon themselves mortal flesh? Are they the same person and being? And, if they are the same person and being, does that mean that their essence and substance has changed - meaning that God could no longer be considered spirit, but he took on a mortal body of flesh and bone?

This is why it gets interesting because the person I had this dialogue with started showing signs of confusion and wanted to try and steer the conversation further than where I wanted it to go. It is important that we stay within the context of the discussion and focus on bits and pieces at a time.

My question: Okay, so we have the Word becoming Flesh and that the Word created all things. Is John the only one that spoke of the Word being the one who created all things in Heaven and Earth? No, here are a couple of passages of scripture we have to consider.

Colossians 1:16-17 teach that it was Christ, the prophesied Messiah who created all things.

Again, I go from beginning to this point.

Evangelical Christian: May I ask how this relates to teh Trinity and Mormonism and how you are able to prove that the Trinity is unbiblical?

My response/question; We will get to that point here. Let us read the Nicene Creed - I then had him read the next part. He then read it and I stopped him.

evangelical Christian: Well this says exactly what I believe and what the Bible teaches.

My response and question: I agree as well, but notice a couple things in the statement about Christ. 1) The father created all things through the power and authority of Jesus Christ; 2) Christ is begotten of God and is From God - Light from Light, and Truth from Truth. Now, how can a single person beget a single person? We already know that Christ came down and took upon himself a physical body of flesh and bone. We already know that he existed with God. We even know that Christ is God, but his he The God, the Almighty Father, and the Most High? And, finally, 3) He came down and was the Savior of Mankind.

evangelical Christian: Well it does say that the Father and the son are one being.

My response and answer: Yes, I agree, but how can they be one Being if they are two separate and distinct persons from one another insomuch that the Son possesses a body of flesh and bone and that the Father is Spirit? They can't be one being , unless you believe that Christ truly is God and that he abandoned Heaven and became Christ, the Savior, only to ascend again and became the Holy Spirit? (Which is modalism). We have the testimony of John that Christ existed with the Father - The word was with God, the word was God, and the Word created all things.

1) Christ is the Word,

2) Christ was with God

3) Christ is God

4) Christ created all things in heaven and earth.

Yet,

1) The Father created all things through his Son

2) His Son is the Only Begotten of God and Man (Virgin Birth)

3) The Son possesses a body of flesh and bone, resurrected and glorified.

Do you still believe that God is spirit and that the Trinity is true?

As the discussion progressed and I shared more scriptures within the Biblical text, I showed my evangelical Pastor the reality of how the Trinity did not properly meet the Biblical Standards. How that Christ was God of the Old Testament and that the Nicene creed did not fully establish the true nature and reality of the Godhead. I then showed him how Christ's prayer referred to Christ referring to his former glory he held with the Father. If he was the Father to begin with, why would he pray for his former glory to be restored unto him once again? My pastor friend could not answer that question. My answer to the question is because Christ held the same glory as his father and both are separate and distinct from one another and not some cosmic uncomprehensible being - especially when Christ said that the purpose of his mission was to testify of the Father and himself.

[Dr T]

Hi STS,

part of the above you said,

My response: No but's we are analyzing the Nicene creed here in light of the Trinitarian doctrine and teaching. We have already established that God is spirit. We have established that God is the Maker of Heaven and Earth. We have established that God was the word and that this word existed with God and that the Word was God from the beginning who created all things. We also know that the Word became flesh according to the Testimony of John. So, if God became flesh, then that means God could no longer be considered spirit correct?

"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and Earth and in Jesus Christ His only son our Lord." When Jesus, the only personage took on humanity he added a human nature to his divinity. That is not talking about the Father taking on humanity. I will not go farther because I doubt you'll read what I'm saying anyway but thought I'd give it a shot to explain where I think you are reaching.

[Jason_J]

My response: No but's we are analyzing the Nicene creed here in light of the Trinitarian doctrine and teaching. We have already established that God is spirit. We have established that God is the Maker of Heaven and Earth. We have established that God was the word and that this word existed with God and that the Word was God from the beginning who created all things. We also know that the Word became flesh according to the Testimony of John. So, if God became flesh, then that means God could no longer be considered spirit correct?

No, this is not correct. It doesn't mean that God is no longer spirit. It means that God is not only spirit due to the Incarnation. Also, Trinitarians are specifically talking about God the Son, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit. Since Trinitarians are not Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostals, or Modalists, they affirm that it was only the Son that was born on this earth of the Virgin Mary, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit. So, the Father and the Holy Spirit remain spirit-only, while the Son is both spirit and embodied, according to Trinitarian theology.

My response: No, it is not a matter of how I am interpreting it, it is a matter of what we are reading and seeing it say. Do you not see that the Nicene Creed says that God is the Almighty Father, maker of Heaven and Earth? (I had him read it again, then read the Genesis account, and then read John 1). According to the first part of the Nicene creed, Genesis 1 and John 1, who is the maker of Heaven and Earth? And, who came and took upon themselves mortal flesh? Are they the same person and being? And, if they are the same person and being, does that mean that their essence and substance has changed - meaning that God could no longer be considered spirit, but he took on a mortal body of flesh and bone?

I think that we have to be clear about what the entirety of the Biblical record states about the creation, as well as what LDS believe on that issue. Jesus Christ did not create the world alone. According to the Gospel Principles manual, He created under the direction of the Father. The chapter on "Our Heavenly Father" says that God the Father created the heavens and the earth and all things that are in them "through His Son, Jesus Christ". It also refers to Alma 30:44 which refers to the "Supreme Creator". Surely if only Jesus is the creator, that verse would not belong in the chapter on Heavenly Father.

Also, remember that the Nicene Creed itself, while referring to the Father as "maker of Heaven and earth" also states, in relation to Jesus Christ, "through Him all things were made". This affirms exactly what the LDS Church teaches: creation was done through Jesus Christ, and the Father is also the Creator.

Also, Trinitarianism does not teach that the Father and the Son are the same Person. I already referred to non-Trinitarian theologies, such as Modalism and Unitarianism, that believe that. Trinitarians view such a belief as a heresy. Trinitarianism is the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons that are one in being. The word "being" in this context is not used interchangeably with "person", as we may do today. Instead, it is a translation of the word "ousia" (remember that the Trinity doctrine was formulated in a non-English speaking world, so we are using translations of Greek/Latin words), which can refer to the "nature" or "essence" of something.

Also, part of orthodox Trinitarian theology is something called the "hypostatic union". This is why the "essence" of God did not change due to the incarnation. The divine nature is distinct from the human nature, so, when God the Son came to this earth, He remained divine, yet He also became human. Jesus thus had two natures, and still has both. And since Trinitarians believe that the Son is distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit, Jesus' incarnation had no effect on Them, since it was only He that came to the earth and became human.

My question: Okay, so we have the Word becoming Flesh and that the Word created all things. Is John the only one that spoke of the Word being the one who created all things in Heaven and Earth? No, here are a couple of passages of scripture we have to consider.

Colossians 1:16-17 teach that it was Christ, the prophesied Messiah who created all things.

See above. The Nicene Creed teaches that through Jesus all things were made ("through Him all things were made"). Thus, the Nicene Creed affirms that God created through Jesus Christ, in accordance with Ephesians 3:9 and Hebrews 1:2.

My response and question: I agree as well, but notice a couple things in the statement about Christ. 1) The father created all things through the power and authority of Jesus Christ; 2) Christ is begotten of God and is From God - Light from Light, and Truth from Truth. Now, how can a single person beget a single person? We already know that Christ came down and took upon himself a physical body of flesh and bone. We already know that he existed with God. We even know that Christ is God, but his he The God, the Almighty Father, and the Most High? And, finally, 3) He came down and was the Savior of Mankind.

evangelical Christian: Well it does say that the Father and the son are one being.

My response and answer: Yes, I agree, but how can they be one Being if they are two separate and distinct persons from one another insomuch that the Son possesses a body of flesh and bone and that the Father is Spirit? They can't be one being , unless you believe that Christ truly is God and that he abandoned Heaven and became Christ, the Savior, only to ascend again and became the Holy Spirit? (Which is modalism). We have the testimony of John that Christ existed with the Father - The word was with God, the word was God, and the Word created all things.

I think you are confused as to how exactly the word "being" is used by Trinitarians. As mentioned, it is not used interchangeably with "person". This seems to be the problem here (and it is a common one). Trinitarians affirm that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons who are of the same essence/nature, which is sometimes also referred to as "being" or "substance", which are translations of the Greek "ousia" and Latin "substantia". Christ truly is God, as John 1 affirms, yet that does not mean that He is God the Father.

I then showed him how Christ's prayer referred to Christ referring to his former glory he held with the Father. If he was the Father to begin with, why would he pray for his former glory to be restored unto him once again?

The Trinity doctrine denies that Jesus was the Father. That is modalism.

I think the key to understanding your view of the Nicene Creed is to understand how the word "being" is used (i.e., not interchangeably with person), as well as understanding the "hypostatic union" doctrine, which goes hand in hand with the Trinity.

[rameumptom]

I don't think STS' argument holds much water, as the Trinity can explain much of his writing. For example, God is one being with three personages. and so God and Christ are both correct answers to the question, "who created the earth?".

The reality is, BOTH Trinity and Godhead can be understood from the context of the Bible. If not so, then we wouldn't have both readings. BOTH are ancient beliefs, dating back to at least the 3d century AD. Mormonism's belief in the Godhead is very similar to that of Origenism, which predates Athanasius by a century.

Sadly for Trinitarians, most lay people do NOT understand the Trinity. In fact, most believe in modalism, which is a form of heresy. And still others actually believe in something similar to the Godhead, also a heresy in the view of Trinity.

I would note that the Bible says nothing regarding such a belief making a person Christian or not. The requirement to believe in the Trinity in order to be saved through Christ comes ONLY from the Nicene Creed and other creeds following. THIS is the gist of the matter when it comes to whether Mormons are Christians or not. I like to note that we are not Creedal or Traditional Christians, but that we agree with Origen, Eusebius of Caesarea and many other ancient Christian scholars in our view of the Godhead.

Then again, in the letters between the elderly John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, Adams wrote, "some may say I am no Christian" because he questioned their view on the Trinity. He went on to say, the Bible says, "God is spirit" and he agreed with it, but then asked what exactly did that mean? Who's right was it to define it, if the Bible did not choose to do so for itself?

As it is, Mormons can agree with most of the Nicene creed, if allowed to interpret parts of it somewhat broadly. There's much to the history of how the Trinity came to being, and sadly most Christians do not know that history. Ignorance is killing the Church of Christ, and we don't even realize it because we choose to remain ignorant.

This is true whether we are talking Creation/evolution, definition of "God-breathed", reading the Bible from its original intent versus a modern reading, etc. It is no wonder that Jewish scholar Harold Bloom called certain portions of Christianity the "Know Nothing" Christians, who would take one verse and blow it out of proportion to make their point, but ignore what the Bible was really saying.

[beefche]

Ok, for those who believe in the Trinity, what does "essence" mean? I'm truly confused by how the Trinity is different than the Godhead and it seems like it boils down to what essence means. Help?

[prisonchaplain]

Beefche, it means that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are connected in a way that allows us to say they are one God. Simply having the same purpsoe does not seem to be sufficient. They have to be one in some "essential" way, that makes them truly one God. So, we say they are three distinct persons, but one essence. It means that they comprise a distinct species, that alone can be called God. Another connection between the three is that they, and only they, are eternal. Thus, we say that in spite of their different roles, they alone are co-equal and co-eternal.

From this you see how the doctrine of God impacts the nature of humans as well. We believe that humans can never be what God is. We are separate species. Further, that angels are distinct from both humans and God.

[Justice]

PC, do you believe this earth is the first earth He created? Do you believe it will be the only earth He creates? Do you believe anything was with God before He created this earth?

[prisonchaplain]

PC, do you believe this earth is the first earth He created?

I believe--and I would venture that most non-LDS Christians believe--that when Moses wrote, "In the beginning..." he meant it quite literally. The universe began at a specific point, which marked the beginning of time.

Do you believe it will be the only earth He creates?

No. We are promised a new one.

Do you believe anything was with God before He created this earth?

What there was prior to that is anyone's speculation. The only safe answer is God. Only he is eternal.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Beefche, it means that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are connected in a way that allows us to say they are one God. Simply having the same purpsoe does not seem to be sufficient. They have to be one in some "essential" way, that makes them truly one God. So, we say they are three distinct persons, but one essence. It means that they comprise a distinct species, that alone can be called God. Another connection between the three is that they, and only they, are eternal. Thus, we say that in spite of their different roles, they alone are co-equal and co-eternal.

From this you see how the doctrine of God impacts the nature of humans as well. We believe that humans can never be what God is. We are separate species. Further, that angels are distinct from both humans and God.

In that sense, too, I don't see how you would think God has any more of a "connection" with us than he would a tree or a rock or the HIV virus for that matter.

If we are different species, do you think God has any more interest in humans than He would the small pox virus and why? Are we not all creations of God?

LDS know of the value of that connection with God, because we are family, he is my Father, Jesus is my brother. I am not sure how you could formulate such a relationship if you say that we are not even of the same species. Otherwise you are going to also have to say that the streptococcus bacteria that your body is now fighting off in your nose is also Jesus' brother.

[Jason_J]

In that sense, too, I don't see how you would think God has any more of a "connection" with us than he would a tree or a rock or the HIV virus for that matter.

If we are different species, do you think God has any more interest in humans than He would the small pox virus and why? Are we not all creations of God?

LDS know of the value of that connection with God, because we are family, he is my Father, Jesus is my brother. I am not sure how you could formulate such a relationship if you say that we are not even of the same species. Otherwise you are going to also have to say that the streptococcus bacteria that your body is now fighting off in your nose is also Jesus' brother.

Except that the small pox virus wasn't created in the image and likeness of God.

[beefche]

Thank you, PC. I always appreciate your clear, concise explanations. Now I understand better why other Christians are so appalled at thinking that God could have been a man.

Will you point out some scriptures (please forgive me if this has been done in that other thread, but frankly, I didn't want to go through hundreds of posts to find it) that show why those who believe in the Trinity believe that God is of a difference essence than man?

[Guest]

Thank you, PC. I always appreciate your clear, concise explanations. Now I understand better why other Christians are so appalled at thinking that God could have been a man.

Will you point out some scriptures (please forgive me if this has been done in that other thread, but frankly, I didn't want to go through hundreds of posts to find it) that show why those who believe in the Trinity believe that God is of a difference essence than man?

If PC doesn't mind, I'll jumpstart the answer to this one:

God's essence, just like God's existence is revealed through inductive reasoning.

Non-LDS Christians believe that man was created by God in a very literal sense - therefore, man cannot be eternal/omnipresent/omniscient, etc. etc.

But, there are a zillion scriptures that show God is:

Omnipotent - Genesis 18:14

Omnipresent - Isaiah 57:15

Omniscient - Isaiah 48:5

Immutable - Malachi 3:6

Eternal - Genesis 21:33

... while man is not.

[rameumptom]

I would add a little to PC's explanation. The essence or substance is eternal and pure, while no other essence or substance in existence is. For some reason, God cannot create a pure substance, like himself.

Second, The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one essence or substance." They are not three manifestations of the same substance, but only three personages of the same. It would be like one man driving three similar cars at the same time.

Modalism is different. It means three manifestations of the same substance. Or, like 3 men driving in one car. Modalism is one of the great heresies St Augustine warned about.

I still have yet to understand how Christ, who resurrected with a physical and mortal body (imperfect, I may add), can be of one essence with the Father, yet still be resurrected with a physical body.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Except that the small pox virus wasn't created in the image and likeness of God.

That is my point.

[Jason_J]

I still have yet to understand how Christ, who resurrected with a physical and mortal body (imperfect, I may add), can be of one essence with the Father, yet still be resurrected with a physical body.

Trinitarians believe that this problem is solved by the doctrine of the "hypostatic union". Basically, Christ has two natures (or two "essences"). Christ is therefore one with the Father in His divine essence, which is not affected by his human essence.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I would add a little to PC's explanation. The essence or substance is eternal and pure, while no other essence or substance in existence is. For some reason, God cannot create a pure substance, like himself.

Could you explain what you mean by "God cannot create a pure substance, like himself." I don't think God can create any "substance" anyways. I thought most LDS believe that matter is neither made or lost. This would also apply to spiritual matter. He organizes matter. He can put it within realms that make the matter behave in certain ways but can He actually "create" matter or "substance"?

[Dravin]

Could you explain what you mean by "God cannot create a pure substance, like himself." I don't think God can create any "substance" anyways. I thought most LDS believe that matter is neither made or lost. This would also apply to spiritual matter. He organizes matter. He can put it within realms that make the matter behave in certain ways but can He actually "create" matter or "substance"?

Isn't Ram expounding on PC's explanation of the Trinity? Meaning LDS theological concepts about matter are rather moot as non-LDS Doctrine is not required to be consistent with it.

[prisonchaplain]

In that sense, too, I don't see how you would think God has any more of a "connection" with us than he would a tree or a rock or the HIV virus for that matter. If we are different species, do you think God has any more interest in humans than He would the small pox virus and why? Are we not all creations of God?

But we are made in his image. We are the highest of his creation. The Bible records that we do have a special relationship with him. We have souls.

LDS know of the value of that connection with God, because we are family, he is my Father, Jesus is my brother. I am not sure how you could formulate such a relationship if you say that we are not even of the same species. Otherwise you are going to also have to say that the streptococcus bacteria that your body is now fighting off in your nose is also Jesus' brother.

This does not follow at all. Scripture is a poetic, powerful telling of the special relationship we have with our Father God. However, he is our Father because he created us. Since he made us and placed his image within us, He loves us.

History is my proof on this. Neither Judaism, Islam, nor historic Christianity have ever taught that we are the same species as God. Yet all teach that God gives us special attention. All proclaim that our souls make us unique amongst God's creation.