the aftermath of a confession.

[Guest saintish]

No offense, but you committed sin.. and there was some fall out from that decision to sin. Remember, this would not have been an issue if no sin was committed in the first place

Im sorry i missed the part of the atonement where it says two wrongs make a right. yes there will always be consequences to sin but what happened to me and my wife should not have been one of the consequences.

[prophetofdoom]

Im sorry i missed the part of the atonement where it says two wrongs make a right. yes there will always be consequences to sin but what happened to me and my wife should not have been one of the consequences.

The Atonement covers the spiritual consequences of sin but doesn't mean it covers all the temporal consequences of sin. An example of this would be a a man who commits adultery. He can be forgiven if he repents but it doesn't mean his marriage will be saved.

What I am trying to say is.. that there is usually collateral damage with serious sin. I have committed sin in my life and was disfellowshipped from the church for it... the bishop kept my confidence as far as I know but I still know a lot of ward members know about it... they see that I can't say prayers, give talks, partake of the sacrament.. it is embarrassing to me.. but I realize that I am the one that sinned. I have to be able to deal with a little discomfort to be able to fully repent and be forgiven.

[Guest saintish]

Its completely understandable that others will know about the sin. the fact that others know isnt really the issue. the issue is the the high counselor was trusted with sacred and confidential information and he betrayed that trust.

[prophetofdoom]

Its completely understandable that others will know about the sin. the fact that others know isnt really the issue. the issue is the the high counselor was trusted with sacred and confidential information and he betrayed that trust.

Well, I know this isn't the answer you want to hear but are you willing to let it go? Was it wrong for the high councilman to reveal confidential info? Yes, of course it was... but, how easy would it be for you and your wife to forgive and forget?

This situation reminds of of this parable Jesus gave, "23¶Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." Matt 18:23-35

[Madriglace]

This probably won't be a popular answer to your question but it is a solution.

The church is perfect ... the people are not ... not even our leaders. This kind of thing happens alot ... whether or not it should doesn't change the fact that it does. I know of people in my ward that folks think are just the neatest thing since sliced bread, holding leadership callings etc ... who I know for fact are rotten.

So my question to you is ... how is this affecting you and your testimony? That is the real problem here. If this person who has wronged you even knows it is a problem, it doesn't seem that he much cares but it is still affecting you because of the hard feelings you are harboring. The others who have posted are right when they say that this is a matter of forgiveness.

Short experience of mine ... I was having a problem with someone and I did considerable praying ... it really was wearing on me. One day in RS as I sat praying about the situation I heard very clearly "Let it go". At that point I realized I was not hurting any one but myself.

Forget this guy ... the jerk ... and look to the hard feelings that are dragging you down and making the devil jump for joy. Better yet .. here is where you will really not like this ... go to this person and say "Brother So and So, when I was having a problem I was told that you passed on information about me that should have remained private, and I belived what I was told ... I have had some seriously hard feelings about you and I want to ask your forgiveness for these feeling so that I can move on in my life." From this point on ... if you truly mean it the problem is no longer yours ... the burden is lifted and you can move on ... it is on his shoulders and whether it gets handled on earth or not, it will be taken care of. Simple solution ... not easy but simple.

Don't let anyone stand between you and your exhaultation ... especially not yourself. Good luck!

[Guest]

Saintish - prophetofdoom gave a big nugget of wisdom.

Forgiveness is to be able to say, "I forgive you", without having to wait for an "I'm sorry". You reported the incident, that, for me, is enough. Anything that happens after that is on the heads of the leadership and the person himself who did the wrong.

Forgiveness is freedom. Freedom from pain, freedom from conflict, freedom to follow Christ wholeheartedly without a noose dragging you down. Let it go. Completely. Both you and your wife can kneel down and pray and ask God for help to give you the strength to forgive just as Christ has forgiven both of you of your trespasses.

God bless.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I have to confess, I didn't follow this discussion from its inception, but I want to weigh in on the opening post.

I have come to the sorry conclusion that there isn't the level of confidentiality we think there should be in the Church. The institute director screwed up --horribly. Based on what you shared here, I think the Stake President and the people you reported to screwed up in not bringing some closure to this situation for you and letting you know they spoke to the HC about confidentiality. They tainted the waters for every other person who might have something confidential to share eventually.

As a Stake Young Men's President, I shared something about an upcoming change in the Stake with the High Councilor over me. I can't remember what it was, but it wasn't anything personal about anyone, it was an administrative policy change. I guess I said it to the High Councillor over me when I explained rationale for something we were going to do, and "the change" was a consideration. I later got chewed out by the member of the Stake Presidency who told me about the change because I'd breached confidentiality in telling the High Councillor. Personally, I didn't know it was confidential, and it didn't mean much to me other than administrative change -- but I got the message -- confidential stuff is confidential stuff in the Church, and we have to respect confidentiality or we run into situations just like yours.

Your SP should have explored why this confidentiality was breached with the Institute Director, and given the Institute Director a gentle, kind reprimand and instruction on the impact of breaching confidences if appropriate. It sounds like such a Christian rebuke is warranted based on the facts I've read in the first couple pages.

If I was you, I would go to the HC about it, and use the "When you do this, I feel this way, and such and such happens" formula. Describe the impact he had on your wife and your status. Let him know your true feelings, but do it in a kind, direct, gentlemanly way. Express your concerns about the way he handled it when your wife spoke to him about it. If he apologizes, accept it, and move on; don't keep pulverizing him with your sadness about it. I like Backroad's advice "Forgiveness is giving up all hope of a better past". Try to forgive him and move on, but realize I understand the hurt and that it might take time. I never rush people into forgiving, although it's a good idea to get past it as fast as your spirit and situation allows. You feel better when you're out of the anger and bitterness that is understandable at first.

Regarding the Stake Presidency. You could book an appointment with them and simply express your sadness that they didn't handle this. Describe the impact. Indicate your disappintment with how you came humbly to the right priesthood authority, laid your soul bare, only to find the details of your situation had been broadcast to people outside the meeting. Indicate your sense that in not dealing with this, you have lost faith in the ability of priesthood leaders in this case to keep confidences -- in your case, or anyone's. This compromises the ability of the Church to fulfil its divine commission to receive confessions from the repentant. Be controlled, but forthright and gentlemanly, and figure out a way to bring the conversation to a soft landing when it's time to leave. Potentially, by thanking them for something you sincerely appreciated along the way (you might have to dig deep to come up with something, but figure out a way to bring the conversation to a professional soft landing by some means).

Or, you could just let it go. I have experienced similar things from our former Stake Presidency. The completely dropped the ball on a couple things and left me out to dry. And they did the same with a new prospective elder they stood up repeatedly for the Melchizedek Priesthood.

Also, remember the old maxim:

"Blessed are they who expect nothing from their Church, for they shall not be disappointed". It sounds a bit humorous, but that has brought me peace. And also, stop believing the Church is perfect -- I saw someone post that above and I believe it to be a fallacy. The Church is good, great, true, but it will never be perfect so long as God works through volunteers, whether called by inspiration or not.

Edited February 4, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Guest saintish]

UPDATE: to make a long story short I tried contacting the stake president several times and each time he said he call me back. after about a month of this i sent the following email to the stake president, his counselors and all the members of the high counsel:

Pres. XXXXXX,

I am greatly disappointed that I must write you this message. I understand that you are probably busy but given the gravity of this situation I was expecting a more proactive response. I believe that firstly, you should have contacted me much sooner, instead I had to call you. when I called you well over a month had passed since i first called Bishop XXXX, and you told me you had done nothing because Brother XXXXX had been out of town the past week. I attempted to call you back, as you ask, and left my name for you to contact me and you failed to do so. From my perspective your lack of attention to this issue shows that you do not care.

I humbly confessed my sin to the right priesthood authority, laid my soul bare, only to find out that details of my situation and the outcome of my disciplinary were broadcast to 19 and 20 year old missionaries, simply because they inquired about a nonmember investigator. That brings up the greater transgression, that a nonmembers name was brought into the situation. The missionaries had no need to know the details they were given, it did not help to convert my now wife, the fact that they were told in the first place and that the situation has subsequently been handled so poorly has shaken her testimony and trust in the church to the point that she is questioning her continued membership.

Both myself and my wife went to brother XXXX on separate occasions before we found out that he was the one who had told the missionaries. Instead of admitting his transgression, he told us "I wouldn't try to find out who leaked the information," "you don't want to get anyone in trouble." Had he admitted that he was the one who felt it necessary to tell two missionaries the outcome of my disciplinary in response to their inquiry about my wife (who at the time was not a member or my wife) it could have ended there. Not only has brother XXXX lied to us, he has abused his position as a high counselor and institute director. On another occasion he called one of my wife's friends into his office to warn him not to listen to what my wife said about him. I take great offense that Brother tibbs has questioned the integrity of my wife and for the purpose of hiding his own transgressions.

In not dealing with this situation I have lost faith in the ability of priesthood leaders to keep confidences, this compromises the ability of the church to fulfill its divine commission to receive confessions from the repentant. If others were to know of this situation how many would willingly confess there sin and who would think twice? I have also lost my faith in the leadership of this stake to handle this issue. I can no longer sustain Brother XXXXX as a High counselor and must pray and reflect on my ability to sustain the stake Presidency

with all due respect,

XXXXXX. (saintish)

Perhaps I was a little harsh but i was beyond frustrated when i wrote this letter.

[Guest]

Perhaps I was a little harsh but i was beyond frustrated when i wrote this letter.

saintish... you didn't listen to the advice given. :-(

If your testimony is so weak that it gets shaken by a sin committed by leadership, then you don't have a problem with leadership - you have a problem with your faith in God. The letter you wrote sounds petty.

If it is the truth that your testimony was shaken by this leader's action, then writing the letter serves no purpose. Writing the letter is merely seeking restitution from the wrong done to you. And restitution will not come until the other person is ready to repent. His repentance is his own. You can't force that on him. You are supposed to forgive - but you haven't. This is on YOU.

Your testimony of the Christ does not rest on the actions of its human members. Every member - including the Prophet himself is not free of sin.

If you were just saying your testimony was shaken just to compound the severity of the issue, then what your letter accomplished is more contention.

God forgave you your sin, you can't forgive others who sinned against you. It doesn't look good.

[Guest saintish]

saintish... you didn't listen to the advice given. :-(

If your testimony is so weak that it gets shaken by a sin committed by leadership, then you don't have a problem with leadership - you have a problem with your faith in God. The letter you wrote sounds petty.

If it is the truth that your testimony was shaken by this leader's action, then writing the letter serves no purpose. Writing the letter is merely seeking restitution from the wrong done to you. And restitution will not come until the other person is ready to repent. His repentance is his own. You can't force that on him. You are supposed to forgive - but you haven't. This is on YOU.

Your testimony of the Christ does not rest on the actions of its human members. Every member - including the Prophet himself is not free of sin.

If you were just saying your testimony was shaken just to compound the severity of the issue, then what your letter accomplished is more contention.

God forgave you your sin, you can't forgive others who sinned against you. It doesn't look good.

reread what i said, I never once said my testimony of the church was shaken, I said my faith in the ability of the leadership to keep confidences.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I thought he was pretty forthright and controlled about his feelings and personally, I think the SP dropped the ball. And yes, lack of communication does imply a lack of caring -- whether intended or not. I think the SP deserves to be given an honest statement of the impact this HC has had on this couple. If the SP don't follow up after this -- shame on them. But don't let it fester Saintish -- the faster you can move on the better.

Although I don't disagree with most of the content in the letter, one way to have this resolved would have been to set up an appointment with the SP through his Executive Secretary. These sorts of things are better handled face-to-face so there can be a discussion. At this point, you don't know if the SP is going to read the email, and if he does read it, he can just ignore you or let it be lost in the myriad of things he has to do already. This will only tick you off further, unless you can just let it go.

So, while I don't disagree with the content of the letter, I think a face-to-face appointment set up with the Exec Secretary would have been a better way to go for your own sense of closure, and given just how swamped Church leaders are. And, at the risk of sounding on the fringe, this is another case of why I think the lay ministry is sometimes a problem in our Church --- SP's and Bishops are just way to busy to handle even the important stuff, and this is one of them.

My heart goes out to you Saintish -- I hope you get some closure, and if you don't, that you can move on. In my experience, the world in general cares less about our problems than we would like, and learning to move on without closure is an important skill for maintaining personal happiness, even though it can seems unjust as it does in this situation.

[Guest saintish]

I was actually out of the state for an extended period of time when this whole situation was going down so an email was the only real way of communicating. the actual idea of sending him an email was the idea of the bishop in the area i was temporarily staying. The SP did call me the day after i sent him the email. he was more upset that i was calling him a "bad stake president" than that the HC had slipped any information. I never said that he was as you can read from the letter but as the saying goes if the shoe fits...

[KayaLove00]

I'm sorry about the situations at hand. That has got to be very frustrating and difficult. You can try to contact the Stake President again or find out whoever is above him and report it to that person. I am not trying to make excuses for him but he did make a mistake and probably didn't realize what the aftermath would entail. He definitely shouldn't have said anything and does owe you an apology and maybe I would actually speak to him directly and tell him you know it was him and explain you will do what it takes to make sure this is resolved. Maybe attend another ward, but I would suggest not letting this ruin your overall spiritual journey in the church. Hope this helps! :)

[Guest mormonmusic]

I'm disturbed your Stake President was more concerned about the perception he was a bad Stake President than addressing your problem. I think a wise senior leader would put that behind him and deal with the problem -- the confidentiality breach and the impact on Saintish and his significant other.

However, you've said it now. It's in his hands to do something about it. I would now let it go as best you can. I know it's not easy, but now that you've spoken to him -- work at moving past it. They screwed up, you called them on it, and now, they know about the gravity of their error. It wouldn't surprise me if they start reminding everyone about confidentiality on the HC now. That usually follows a crisis of some kind, and depending on how firm you were about your dismay at his behavior, he may be concerned you'll go above his head. (Maybe not, but it would cross through my mind).

Usually leaders then do something to explain how they dealt with it in case someone above them raises the screw-up to them.

I can't remember if you spoke to the HC who breached the confidence. If you hadn't yet seen the SP, I might have confronted him with it, as a wise person once said "conflicts should be resolved at the lowest level possible in the organization". However, now that you've spoken to the SP, I'd leave it alone and don't let it destroy your peace any longer. You're worth it.

Edited March 21, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Guest saintish]

How would you go about going over the SP's head? Thats not really an option i'm putting much thought into at this point but i have thought about it. Do you send a letter directly to the 1st Presidency or is there a GA that one should go to first?

[Dravin]

How would you go about going over the SP's head? Thats not really an option i'm putting much thought into at this point but i have thought about it. Do you send a letter directly to the 1st Presidency or is there a GA that one should go to first?

My understanding is that when individuals attempt to jump the "chain of command" such letters/questions are redirected to the appropriate person.

[Guest saintish]

My understanding is that when individuals attempt to jump the "chain of command" such letters/questions are redirected to the appropriate person.

In this situation it wouldnt be "jumping the chain of command" as i went first to my bishop, then to the SP, then to the SP and the HC. I'd think someone above the SP would be the next logical step. then again Im not likely to go that far anyway.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Saintish -- did the SP apologize for what happened when you spoke to him? Did he say he was going to deal with the problem? What was the outcome of the conversation with your SP? (Other than he seemed more concerned about being labelled at bad SP).

[Guest saintish]

Saintish -- did the SP apologize for what happened when you spoke to him? Did he say he was going to deal with the problem? What was the outcome of the conversation with your SP? (Other than he seemed more concerned about being labelled at bad SP).

He began by telling me that he had been on vacation for a week and that was why he had taken so long to get back to me (even though he had known for over a month). he told me that he had talked to the HC and he had told him 'he didn't remember saying anything' and so the SP began questioning me (because i have so much to gain in making up this story) at which point i explained that the missionaries had told my wife this HC had told them and that my wife had confronted the HC through email and he admitted to disclosing information to the missionaries. he then went on to ask me what i wanted him to do and if i wanted him to 'send a letter to salt lake telling them how much of a bad SP he was' (in a vary sarcastic tone). I told him my only request were that the HC not be involved with my second disciplinary counsel (i wanted to tell him to remove the HC from the high counsel but didnt feel it was my place) and that he handle the situation. he told me that the HC would not be on my second Disciplinary counsel and that they had discussed keeping confidences from the CHI during stake PEC (i guess his way of handling the situation) not once did he apologize for what happened and i have to this day not heard one word from the HC.

ok thats fine and good i can let all that go. So i return home from a temporary out of state job and me and my wife (mostly my wife but i understand her feelings) have decided to go to another ward to avoid the HC in question. shouldn't be a big deal we live across the street from the boundary of the ward we would like to go, its still in the same stake etc. we talk to the bishop of that ward, he says he would love to have us, we are close so home teachers wont be a problem but we have to get approval from the SP.

My wife and i make the appointment to see the SP. The first thing he says to me, in front of my wife is "have you come here to yell at me and tell me how bad of a SP i am again" there are many thing i would have liked to say but i bit my tongue and played nice. he said "im still not happy with the way you handled the situation especially since your still in the repentance process" (im assuming he was referring to the email i sent to him and the whole HC) i told him no we simply wanted to ask him about switching wards to avoid the HC. without hesitation he said no. he said "why dont you just move" at which point i bluntly told him that we were in a lease agreement and we explained our reasons and that we didnt think we could go to the same ward as the HC. he told us that in order to do that he would have to get the agreement of both bishops and send a letter explaining the reason for the switch to the 1st presidency (he emphasized the last part.) we said fine we have no problem with that (especially since we aren't the ones that did anything wrong) he told us he would pray about it and would get back to us that was a little over two weeks ago. I wonder if he is afraid that if SL gets wind of the situation they might ask him questions about how the situation was handled? in any case thats where i am at now.

Edited March 23, 2011 by saintish

[Ghawbrey]

I am owed many apologies that I will never receive and I am sure that I owe at least as many. I do not let that stand in the way of my progress and neither should you or your Bride. The Gospel is true and people are flawed. These are facts. Get over the flawed people to continue your progression. This will not be the last time you will be hurt by someone....I Guarantee It.

[Vort]

I am owed many apologies that I will never receive and I am sure that I owe at least as many. I do not let that stand in the way of my progress and neither should you or your Bride. The Gospel is true and people are flawed. These are facts. Get over the flawed people to continue your progression. This will not be the last time you will be hurt by someone....I Guarantee It.

Words of wisdom for all those with ears to hear, especially the bolded part.

[Guest saintish]

So are you of the opinion that there is no need for justice?

[estradling75]

So are you of the opinion that there is no need for justice?

At what cost? You and your wife's eternal salvation? Your chance at exaltation? No. In all honesty I would say that is too high a price to pay for this. But that is exactly the route you are on now.

In the early days of the Church many times they were done wrong. They did seek out justice and redress. When they didn't get it they turned it over to God. They knew that life would not always be fair, the scales would not always get balanced in this life. It is a sad fact that the leaders in the church don't always live up to the high expectations that we think they should.

Right now you have been focused on Justice (and understandably so) but this focus is killing your spirit. You need to change focus to the other gospel principal that is much more important to you right now. That is the principal of Forgiveness. It is a much harder thing to seek then Justice. Turn justice over to God and focus on following God command to forgive all men their trespasses against you. This is how you can save yourself and your wife.

Good luck

[Guest saintish]

How would seeking justice cost us our salvation? We are active, and have largely put this situation in the past. Does that mean I am wrong for seeking justice?

[estradling75]

How would seeking justice cost us our salvation? We are active, and have largely put this situation in the past. Does that mean I am wrong for seeking justice?

Sorry I was going by your own words

During my senior year of college my testimony of the church grew incredibly strong. ....

Me and my wife feel unable to attend our assigned ward because it is the same ward as the high counselor. she has almost completely lost her testimony and i am not far behind her.

been handled so poorly has shaken her testimony and trust in the church to the point that she is questioning her continued membership.

I have lost faith in the ability of priesthood leaders

Now if you have been able to rebuild your testimonies from this then great, but that was not the impression I got. And there is still the question of can you/have you and your wife truly forgiven. That is a God given mandate on you and her no matter what the priesthood leaders do. It seems to me that the wounds dealt to you are festering while seeking Justice.

Perhaps I am wrong? Have you and your wife prayed to the Lord for the strength to forgive? Have you applied the power of Christ's atonement into healing the wrong done to you? Have you rebuilt your testimonies and faith? If you can say yes you and your wife have, or that you are diligently working it. Then seeking Justice is fine as long as it doesn't delay or hinder your progress in more important areas...

But my impression is that you are seeking justice at the expense of more important things and thus my comments