Dravin Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 <> I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things - Isaiah 45:7 Okay, you were saying that if something exists it is permitted. Which brings us right back to everything in existence being permitted and it being a meaningless distinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew0059 Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 bert10-This man, the so-called prophet Gill? His claims run absolutely contrary to accepted doctrine of the true Church of JESUS CHRIST. His teachings are calculated to mimic the cultural and basic doctrinal aspects of Mormonism to pry away the weak of the true faith.Remember the admonition of scripture- "touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing" (Moroni 10:30). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slamjet Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 <> I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things - Isaiah 45:7 <> Do you remember the answer Jesus gave Pontius Pilate who said that He held the fate of Jesus in His hands? Did not Jesus inform him that he could do nothing unless heaven gave him the power to do it?Here is how it works....GOD gives men the power to do good or evil. Because GOD created all things as well as the Opposite of all things. Why? because without the opposite of a thing...there would be no reference point by which we could measure, weight and evaluate. Power to do anything comes only from one Source and that source is GOD. And if GOD does not wish a certain thing to be done...then it does not get done. It is as simple as that.To think otherwise would mean that GOD is not aware of what is going on nor has the power to intervene or prevent a thing from being done.Bert10Good grief.This post presupposes that everything on earth, both good and evil, can only come from God. It goes on to presuppose that all the violence around us was created and given to us by God. It further presupposes that our free agency is controlled by God. If you knew your doctrine even by a little bit, you would know that our free agency is the one thing God cannot take from us. It is only we can give to Him. This dude has his free agency to come up with whatever drivel of gospel he want's. Just because it's here doesn't mean it has God's blessing. Furthermore, I have the free agency to dismiss it outright as garbage, which I heartily do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bert10 Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Do a little bit of thinking here. Can GOOD exist without Evil? Can tranquility exist without violence?God does not force men to choose how to act. Their choice in choosing good or evil is left up to them. This is called eating from the tree of good and evil.Did not GOD explain this thing quite plainly to J. Smith and to us who are his people? That for one thing to exist and be measured, etc there must be its opposite. Did not GOD create the Universe with opposite? If there is a electron then there must be an positron, if there be Light which is also called truth then there must be darkness which is also called error. If there be matter than there must be anti-matter and so on.These things are truths and must exist side by side in order for us to have choices.Do you not believe scriptures of John which states quite clearly that not one thing was not created by the WORD. And do you not believe Isaiah whom the Lord quoted quite often in His ministry?Free agency is not affected. The choice that is laid Equally before us by GOD and the choices are GOOD or EVIL depending on their effects on us on our neighbors and of the will of GOD. And it is GOD that divided all things into opposites. Men cannot create evil though they can do evil and define the height and depth of it.God made sure we have a choice in all things. But GOD has the right to intervene in our agency if we have voluntered to go on a mission, or that we getting too deep in wickedness for our sakes as well as the sakes of those around us.bert10Good grief.This post presupposes that everything on earth, both good and evil, can only come from God. It goes on to presuppose that all the violence around us was created and given to us by God. It further presupposes that our free agency is controlled by God. If you knew your doctrine even by a little bit, you would know that our free agency is the one thing God cannot take from us. It is only we can give to Him. This dude has his free agency to come up with whatever drivel of gospel he want's. Just because it's here doesn't mean it has God's blessing. Furthermore, I have the free agency to dismiss it outright as garbage, which I heartily do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slamjet Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Do a little bit of thinking here.I do believe I've done plenty of thinking. Me-think you are pulling things out of everywhere to attempt to prove your point for which makes no sense whatsoever and is wholly not grounded in the Gospel whatsoever. And I think you are wrong, totally wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 I know that if Jesus did not permit this book, it would not have been allowed.Post hoc ergo propter hoc.Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Good grief.This post presupposes that everything on earth, both good and evil, can only come from God. It goes on to presuppose that all the violence around us was created and given to us by God. It further presupposes that our free agency is controlled by God. If you knew your doctrine even by a little bit, you would know that our free agency is the one thing God cannot take from us. It is only we can give to Him. This dude has his free agency to come up with whatever drivel of gospel he want's. Just because it's here doesn't mean it has God's blessing. Furthermore, I have the free agency to dismiss it outright as garbage, which I heartily do.This is why I asked him if he were a Calvinist. Since he's trying to explain it more, it seems that he believes all things exist because God requires them for agency.This is true on the face of it. At the same time, however, did God really create evil? Or has evil existed since the beginning? LDS teaching is that matter has always existed, and therefore is independent of God. It is this independence that opens the door for evil. God allows it. That does not mean God doesn't fight against it, commands against it, or overcomes it with good. He does. To take off from Dravin's point, while God may allow pornography to exist, it does not follow that we should study it, simply because God allows it to exist. God allows false religions to exist, but that does not mean I should pass my children through the fires for Molech. God, through his prophets, is very vocal against such things. He allows the tares to grow up with the wheat for now, but will someday gather the wheat and burn the tares. There is a coming separation when such will no longer be allowed in any kingdom of glory.The Book of Jeraneck is not an evil book, IMO. However, it is a book that was created by those who would lead us away from true prophets and towards false prophets. Gill's religion may make a person terrestrial, but it will not exalt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 I could very well be that an angel appeared to him. An "angel" appeared to Korihor...Alma 30:53 But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slamjet Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Post hoc ergo propter hoc.Wow, that one line I had to Google. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 <> I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things - Isaiah 45:7 <> Do you remember the answer Jesus gave Pontius Pilate who said that He held the fate of Jesus in His hands? Did not Jesus inform him that he could do nothing unless heaven gave him the power to do it?Here is how it works....GOD gives men the power to do good or evil. Because GOD created all things as well as the Opposite of all things. Why? because without the opposite of a thing...there would be no reference point by which we could measure, weight and evaluate. Power to do anything comes only from one Source and that source is GOD. And if GOD does not wish a certain thing to be done...then it does not get done. It is as simple as that.To think otherwise would mean that GOD is not aware of what is going on nor has the power to intervene or prevent a thing from being done.Bert10This sounds great, then I am not responsible for anything I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bert10 Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) Anciently we only became impure if we touched something impure. The principle is the same today...as it was in the days of Adam and Eve. The Tree of knowledge of good and evil did not cause Adam and Eve to fall. It was the tasting of the tree of knowledge of GOOD and Evil that caused the fall.God Created all things. And Evil is simply the opposite of GOOD. What makes men righteous or evil is the partaking of the righteousness or the partaking of Evil.If a man partakes not of either the Lord said that he spew him out ....being neither warm nor cold.Do you understand how it works?....Evil must exist as the opposite of goodness. What raises hell on the earth or bring down heaven on it...the partaking of either evil or good.Think of Electricity as being the symbol for evil. As long as it is being contained in the wires....no harm can come to a person. But for anyone who is foolish enough to actually touch it with his finger...it will hurt him.Like I said Evil must exist in order that GOOD also exist. God is the Creator of all things including the good and the evil. But neither of them by themselves does anything until we decide to "Touch" one or the other. Whatever we decide to touch will bring forth fruits that will be either bitter or sweet.Revelation 3:15 - I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.Revelation 3:16 - So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.If our works originates from the darkness then it is evil its effect will be of the darkness...and if our works originates from the light...then it is good. Choices means to act in one way or another. And for those who might think that it is a good idea to sit on the fence...The Lord said He spew you out being neither hot nor cold.bert10 Edited February 11, 2011 by bert10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slamjet Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 BERT! You're back! I'll let others comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bert10 Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 I do have to work from time to time. It may not look like it. But God gave me the greatest job in the world...and it leaves me with lot's of time to do gospel study on the job. Except when I am on day shift as it gets busy at times. But then again I put my scriptures on my BB and can listen to it while I work. bert10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew0059 Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 bert10, if there is only good and evil, and that which is good is from GOD, and this 'Book of Jaraneck' is not from GOD, how can it be defended as good? The base issue is whether this new so-called scripture is of GOD or not. If it is, and is scripture, it will be useful in coming closer to GOD. If it is not, it will serve to move men away from GOD. We know that GOD'S house is a house of order, and that according to LDS theology and doctrine, no new scripture will come to us except it be through or endorsed by the presiding councils of the Church. Therefore, anyone else claiming new revelation and to be a prophet of GOD must meet this requirement. So far, this Gill does not- therefore, he meets all the requirements of being a false prophet, meaning he and his work are from the devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler90AZ Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) I watched some of the assembly(conference) and Gill isn't that great of an orator. The thing that makes everybody who talks at our conferences so great is the spirit. This religion is obviously a copy and paste version of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The only difference is we have Heavenly Father. We need to pray for all members of that church. Edited February 11, 2011 by Tyler90AZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyRudick Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Wow, that one line I had to Google.Actually I believe that wet streets cause rain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmarch Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Actually I believe that wet streets cause rain.lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic_Trish Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 We know in the last days the wheat will be separated from the tares and there will be many false doctrines which will appear. Satan will give every attempt to divide members of the church and take away as many as he can. There will be tests to prove our righteousness and many will falter, but we have the promise that if we do not falter we will have our eternal reward. This book just seems to be one of those separation points. This test seems pretty easy to me, but obviously it won't be that way for everyone. I have seen many members fall away lately over teachings of the prophets and positions the church takes but I have also seen lately many talks directed toward following the prophet regardless of outside influences. I don't know about you, but i'm preparing and trying to brace myself for any tests that may try to break my commitment to the Gospel. Luckily the Book of Jaraneck isn't one of them :) (I'll let you know what it may be in the future and hopefully you'll help me snap out of it!! lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 I am quite disappointed by many posters on this forum. I want to thank several posters that have pointed out that many of the arguments against the Book of Jeraneck are in essence the same as so many arguments against the Book of Mormon.Here is my opinion. If anyone is concerned about the “Book of Jeraneck” then seek out the best and most informed source you can find that believes and champions the “Book of Jeraneck” and first learn all you can from that source. Then set about to discern as best you can the value the book can bring to you. Do this first!If you are not concerned with the “Book of Jeraneck” then do not be concerned and leave it to what-ever it will be to those that would make something of it. If you wish to discuss the Book then discuss it with someone that is successful and knowledgeable of it and able to defend it. To trash it among disbelievers is a waste of time to which no one will learn anything or benefit in any way - it will only engender prejudices and malice.The Traveler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Anciently we only became impure if we touched something impure. The principle is the same today...as it was in the days of Adam and Eve. The Tree of knowledge of good and evil did not cause Adam and Eve to fall. It was the tasting of the tree of knowledge of GOOD and Evil that caused the fall.God Created all things. And Evil is simply the opposite of GOOD. What makes men righteous or evil is the partaking of the righteousness or the partaking of Evil.If a man partakes not of either the Lord said that he spew him out ....being neither warm nor cold.Do you understand how it works?....Evil must exist as the opposite of goodness. What raises hell on the earth or bring down heaven on it...the partaking of either evil or good.Think of Electricity as being the symbol for evil. As long as it is being contained in the wires....no harm can come to a person. But for anyone who is foolish enough to actually touch it with his finger...it will hurt him.Like I said Evil must exist in order that GOOD also exist. God is the Creator of all things including the good and the evil. But neither of them by themselves does anything until we decide to "Touch" one or the other. Whatever we decide to touch will bring forth fruits that will be either bitter or sweet.Revelation 3:15 - I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.Revelation 3:16 - So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.If our works originates from the darkness then it is evil its effect will be of the darkness...and if our works originates from the light...then it is good. Choices means to act in one way or another. And for those who might think that it is a good idea to sit on the fence...The Lord said He spew you out being neither hot nor cold.bert10We all decided to "touch evil" by choosing our Heavenly Father's plan over the plan that said we never have to "touch evil" in pre-mortal life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyRudick Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 I am quite disappointed by many posters on this forum. I want to thank several posters that have pointed out that many of the arguments against the Book of Jeraneck are in essence the same as so many arguments against the Book of Mormon.Here is my opinion. If anyone is concerned about the “Book of Jeraneck” then seek out the best and most informed source you can find that believes and champions the “Book of Jeraneck” and first learn all you can from that source. Then set about to discern as best you can the value the book can bring to you. Do this first!If you are not concerned with the “Book of Jeraneck” then do not be concerned and leave it to what-ever it will be to those that would make something of it. If you wish to discuss the Book then discuss it with someone that is successful and knowledgeable of it and able to defend it. To trash it among disbelievers is a waste of time to which no one will learn anything or benefit in any way - it will only engender prejudices and malice.The TravelerI know we are "trashing it" but I believe it is fine to do so among ourselves.We are not setting up a web site for the purpose of "Exposing the Book of Jeraneck"as many have don with other books.I agree with what you said we should do if we are really concerned with the book and I would be among the first to find a Gung Ho believer and learn first from him or her.But I really do not have that much concern other then a curiosity and feel there is no problem with chewing it up among. . . .O, well:cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneC Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 I am quite disappointed by many posters on this forum. I want to thank several posters that have pointed out that many of the arguments against the Book of Jeraneck are in essence the same as so many arguments against the Book of Mormon.Here is my opinion. If anyone is concerned about the “Book of Jeraneck” then seek out the best and most informed source you can find that believes and champions the “Book of Jeraneck” and first learn all you can from that source. Then set about to discern as best you can the value the book can bring to you. Do this first!If you are not concerned with the “Book of Jeraneck” then do not be concerned and leave it to what-ever it will be to those that would make something of it. If you wish to discuss the Book then discuss it with someone that is successful and knowledgeable of it and able to defend it. To trash it among disbelievers is a waste of time to which no one will learn anything or benefit in any way - it will only engender prejudices and malice.The TravelerSorry your way attempts to take away our free agency. I fought in Heaven to retain my free agency and I'll do the same here on earth. So if you're offended by our "TRASHING' you might want to sit this one out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) Sorry your way attempts to take away our free agency.Oh please. Traveler's way does not attempting to take away your free agency any more than you are attempting to take away his by telling him to sod off. Edited February 11, 2011 by Dravin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) Sorry your way attempts to take away our free agency. I fought in Heaven to retain my free agency and I'll do the same here on earth. So if you're offended by our "TRASHING' you might want to sit this one out. I will quote (with some added helps) something I find interesting from the sacred scriptures. "Does our law (scriptures and doctrine) allow us to condemn a man (or the beliefs of others) before we have heard HIM (THEM) speak!"If so - either you or I do not properly understand or practice the 11th Article of FaithThe Traveler Edited February 11, 2011 by Traveler added the If so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneC Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Fine I can make up my mind on my own and TRASH the Book and the false prophet without seeking out the best and most informed source you can find that believes and champions the “Book of Jeraneck” and first learn all you can from that source. Then set about to discern as best you can the value the book can bring to you. And I guess I don't have to - Do this first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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