Why Preschool Shouldn't Be Like School

[Backroads]

Bimbo? Of course, you're not biased! It's schools that set the standards, not the teachers and MOST private schools have higher academic standards that public schools, yes I am saying that. BTW, are homeschools taught by bimbos too?

If schools set the standards, how are the teachers different? What I am reading is that you are saying is that the private school TEACHERS are superior somehow to public school teachers. I don't understand how that is possible when all teachers go through the exact same education and training.

I never said only bimbos homeschool. I'm merely saying that as far as the individual teacher in concerned, someone who teaches at a private school is not necessarily better than a teacher who teaches at a public school.

Example: This morning I interviewed for a private school position. If I get this job, will I automatically, in that moment of being hired, suddenly have more skill, intelligence, and talent than any public school teachers?

[Backroads]

So you don't believe in school choice. Thank you for identifying yourself as a statist; it certainly clarifies the argument.

Statist? You have got to be kidding me. Where did I say I did not believe in school choice? I support vouchers and private schools and the like. I just happent to believe in making researched and educated choices. Apparently you would never, ever, ever research a school to which you would send your child. I happen to prefer checking out the school.

[Guest]

What about when it becomes a popularity thing and not a skill thing? When I was teaching, a parent flat-out said she did not want her kids in so-n-so's class because the teacher, despite excellent teaching methods, had cerebral palsy.

That being said, I'm in favor of vouchers. I just think the parents should also study up on what school/teacher they want.

I don't see popularity thing being a problem... With all the number of kids needing education, a good apple will be rewarded regardless of whether one parent - or even a group of parents - thinks she has cerebral palsy.

Case in point:

My math professor in college - he was CRAZY. Okay - just one example - he was also one of my electical engineering teachers. We were working on a generator and he got upset at the class... okay, I have to spill what happened... he was showing us the parts of the generator and one of my classmates plugged the thing in causing my professor to get electrecuted (everybody hates this professor, that's why my classmate thought it was a great opportunity for vengeance). Of course nobody would admit to plugging the thing in when the professor asked for the culprit... So, he took his grade record book called every student individually and asked them to touch the live coil... you touch it you get an A, you don't touch it, you get an F. And that was the class for the day!

Okay, this same professor failed his son 3 times! What's interesting about that is... he has a very simple grading system. He gives about 8-10 tests in one semester. There's no mid-terms nor finals. Each test is worth 100 points. You only need to average 30 points to get a C... C is a passing grade. You write your name on the blue-book that's already 20 points. But, the only way you can get at least 10 points... is if you understood the class. You can't wing it. Here's one of the tests (in Numerical Methods) - he teaches in class how to extract square root... the test came out, the question is "extract cube root of f(x)...". If you truly understood the concept of how to extract a square root, you can apply it to extract the nth root. But, if you just plainly memorized the steps to get the square root, you're screwed.

Anyway, every single semester, on the first day of class, his class is full... on the 2nd day of class, his class is half-way empty (withdrawals)... on the 3rd day of class, it is full again with different students.

So, when I sign up for class at beginning of term, if his class is full, I don't sign up with anybody else - I just wait for the 2nd day of class and sign up then!

Why is his class full when he is such a terror? Because... he is one heck of a teacher even if his attitude is dismal!

Edited March 17, 2011 by anatess

[Backroads]

Okay, so maybe popularity contest is a bad argument. But in my world, parents are quite capable of holding a grudge and running a teacher out of a school. Should all things be based on the opinions of a few parents?

[Dravin]

Hmmmm.......

I think he's onto something. We should be teaching in public schools values that correspond with what Muslim parents teach their children at home, or maybe Hindi?

[Guest]

Okay, so maybe popularity contest is a bad argument. But in my world, parents are quite capable of holding a grudge and running a teacher out of a school. Should all things be based on the opinions of a few parents?

Nope... all things should be based on how many parents will sign up their kid for her OR HIS* class. Now... I'm not saying "each individual teacher". Because, of course, you can't put a kid in one class then put him in a different school for a different class.

In general - what I'm trying to say here is that - parents should have a choice on which school their kids go to. Public schools shouldn't be limited to the students in their district. Get rid of the bus... or make the bus like the city bus - going on specific routes... and it is the kids' job to figure out which bus gets them where they need to go. If a school cannot get enough kids to sign up - they don't get funded. If a parent would rather take the kid to private school of his choice or to opt for home schooling, he gets a voucher.

*Sorry. I was being sexist in saying Her for teachers. In my son's school there is only 1 male teacher - the Sports teacher.

Edited March 17, 2011 by anatess

[Backroads]

Nope... all things should be based on how many parents will sign up their kid for her OR HIS* class.

*Sorry. I was being sexist in saying Her for teachers. In my son's school there is only 1 male teacher - the Sports teacher.

Sounds fair and I agree.

However... what about new teachers to a school? How many years should they be given to gain popularity?

As for male teachers... I worked with a guy, a first grade teacher, who had single mothers requesting him for the kids all the time in hopes of getting a positive male influence in kids' lives.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

If schools set the standards, how are the teachers different? What I am reading is that you are saying is that the private school TEACHERS are superior somehow to public school teachers. I don't understand how that is possible when all teachers go through the exact same education and training. What? There is no "teacher school" and if there is, there is certainly no requirement that all teachers public and private go through the exact same syllibus. Many states have licensing programs which involves having a college degree and taking a test, but private schools hire teachers based on their own criteria of qualifications and training.

I never said only bimbos homeschool. I'm merely saying that as far as the individual teacher in concerned, someone who teaches at a private school is not necessarily better than a teacher who teaches at a public school.

You said "bimbo" referring to a private school teacher but withheld that invective when referring to a public school teacher. Your bias could not be more flagrant.

Example: This morning I interviewed for a private school position. If I get this job, will I automatically, in that moment of being hired, suddenly have more skill, intelligence, and talent than any public school teachers?

You just might, especially if it's a merit based pay scale.

[MarginOfError]

Sorry, Backroads, but St. Mike is right on this one--generally, private school students are much better educated than public school students. The reasons for that are difficult to tease out, however.

One of the major difficulties in education is parent involvement. Studies also show that children in poverty are far less likely to have engaged parents than children from middle class or wealthy families. Discipline problems also usually closely mirror a lack of discipline from parents.

So part of the problem with the educational system is that it doesn't hold parents accountable. It only holds students and school systems accountable (but not always teachers--to be discussed later). That's going to have to change somehow, but it's hard to imagine a scenario in which that is possible in the public sphere (private schools can make parental involvement a condition of enrollment).

Then there's the fact that families in poverty often don't have a parent home available to teach, instruct, or guide children after school--the parent(s) are often working to make ends meet. Those families that do manage to make the time to engage often are undereducated themselves, and eventually reach a point at which they lack the education needed to enhance the child's school education (by, say, helping with homework).

Teachers' unions contribute to the problem as well by making it so hard to get rid of bad teachers, and so hard to compensate good teachers fairly. Teachers ought to be paid for performance. At the same time, I understand the unions' hesitancy to do this because performance will most likely be measured by--wait for it--standardized testing, which fails at evaluating the quality of a teacher when considered in a vacuum.

So yeah, the education system is royally screwed up. But there's no simple solution. Anyone who tries to tell you there is a simple solution doesn't appreciate the complexity of the problem.

Most of all, what this country's education system needs is more parental engagement. Building the bridge to more parental engagement will likely take on poverty and unplanned pregnancy. In fact, I don't think you can reasonably address the problems facing the public school system without addressing those issues. But I don't think defunding/defederalizing public education is going to accomplish much, and here's why:

A couple months ago we had a huge storm come through here. Most of the suburban schools were closed for two days, if not three days. The inner city schools, however, were closed one day and then announced that they would be open after that no matter how bad the weather was. The reasoning--the meals served at the schools were, for many students, about the only meal they got on any given day. No matter how many vouchers you distribute, those kids aren't going to a private school. There is a need and a necessity for public education, and any dialog that leads away from improving publication is at the expense of those that have no other choice.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Statist? You have got to be kidding me. Where did I say I did not believe in school choice? I support vouchers and private schools and the like. I just happent to believe in making researched and educated choices.

You said,

And no, I don't say "trust the government". I just do not believe people should feel they should pick a school based soley on whether it is public or private.

Some parents might not want a teacher because she's black.

It just seemed like you were taking an overt interest in the thinking process of parents when choosing a school as if they can't be trusted with such a decision. That to me screams "statist!" but I apologize if that is a mischaracterization.

Apparently you would never, ever, ever research a school to which you would send your child. I happen to prefer checking out the school.

That was a very foolish statement. You have no idea how much time and effort I have put into making sure my kids are in the right school. It's because of that process that I'm well aware of the nuances.

[Guest]

About Vouchers and No Child Left Behind...

1.) Each school can set their own standards for acceptance into a grade level. A minimum requirement is set by the state. These standards are specific to the type of school. A school specializing in music may set a auditions as an added requirement to the minimum state standards. A school specilizing in developmental education for special needs children may have their own standards. Minimum requirements are not "broad brush" requirements. It may be done via standardized tests, psychological evaluations, and skill observation. The standardized testing is the general option - other types of testing is available for those who need it.

2.) What if no school will accept your child? If a child is not accepted in any of the schools and he refuses the vouchers, he can go to a State school (only requires minimum requirements for grade level).

[Guest]

Sounds fair and I agree.

However... what about new teachers to a school? How many years should they be given to gain popularity?

As for male teachers... I worked with a guy, a first grade teacher, who had single mothers requesting him for the kids all the time in hopes of getting a positive male influence in kids' lives.

Sorry... I edited my post to be more clear... Can you check it out and see if it answers this question?

[Backroads]

What? There is no "teacher school" and if there is, there is certainly no requirement that all teachers public and private go through the exact same syllibus. Many states have licensing programs which involves having a college degree and taking a test, but private schools hire teachers based on their own criteria of qualifications and training.

You said "bimbo" referring to a private school teacher but withheld that invective when referring to a public school teacher. Your bias could not be more flagrant.

You just might, especially if it's a merit based pay scale.

You are going to be hard-pressed to find a private school that would not want some sort of evidence that a teacher is knowledgeable on "teaching skills" such as psychology, discipline styles, working with children, etc. A degree in math is no guarantee one can teach it. Private schools want teachers who know how to work with kids, and this is explicitly taught in teacher Ed programs in universities. Private schools will rarely hire someone without formal training.

You really think the fact that because someone is hired by a private school they are suddenly a better teacher than they were in the public system? Or are you trying to say something else?

I apologize for the bimbo remark. I see how it was misconstrued.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Most of all, what this country's education system needs is more parental engagement. Building the bridge to more parental engagement will likely take on poverty and unplanned pregnancy. In fact, I don't think you can reasonably address the problems facing the public school system without addressing those issues.

In this day and age, how hard is it for teachers to send an email or text message when a student misses an assignment. Parent/student conferences can be done on line. I think you're on to something here, but I also have to point out that some teachers are also lazy and don't want parental involvement any more than some parents do. I've dealt with these types. After all, why should a teacher have to work harder for their union negotiated salaries?

But I don't think defunding/defederalizing public education is going to accomplish much, and here's why:

A couple months ago we had a huge storm come through here. Most of the suburban schools were closed for two days, if not three days. The inner city schools, however, were closed one day and then announced that they would be open after that no matter how bad the weather was. The reasoning--the meals served at the schools were, for many students, about the only meal they got on any given day. No matter how many vouchers you distribute, those kids aren't going to a private school. There is a need and a necessity for public education, and any dialog that leads away from improving publication is at the expense of those that have no other choice.

The beauty of the voucher system is that it doesn't defund public schools, it simply causes them to sink or swim in a competitive market. If they fail in a voucher system, they deserved to fail.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

You are going to be hard-pressed to find a private school that would not want some sort of evidence that a teacher is knowledgeable on "teaching skills" such as psychology, discipline styles, working with children, etc. A degree in math is no guarantee one can teach it. Private schools want teachers who know how to work with kids, and this is explicitly taught in teacher Ed programs in universities. Private schools will rarely hire someone without formal training.

.

I see I need to remind you again what you said, that private and public school teachers go through the exact same training. (scroll back) This is untrue. Every private and charter school sets their own criteria for qualifications and training. Teaching credentials aren't hard to come by, it's getting a college degree that serves as the bulk and basis for teachers' qualification to teach. After that, getting a license is a piece of cake.

[Guest]

In this day and age, how hard is it for teachers to send an email or text message when a student misses an assignment. Parent/student conferences can be done on line. I think you're on to something here, but I also have to point out that some teachers are also lazy and don't want parental involvement any more than some parents do. I've dealt with these types. After all, why should a teacher have to work harder for their union negotiated salaries?

St Mike, you have a point about teachers unions but you might have some misconceptions here.

At least in Florida - teachers are stressed out. I am not even over-exaggerating this. The 2 years that I was trying to figure out what I can do for my son, I have one litany from all the teachers - I don't have time to talk to you right now... I set an appointment with the principal OR vice principal OR guidance counsellor and I never saw any of them for 6 months! SIX MONTHS! That's over half the school-year gone already!

And no, it is not the fault of the faculty... you should see the stuff they have to do to fulfill state requirements... just so they can get paid... and none of them has anything to do with teaching my kid something.

So, even with the advent of electronic communication - they just don't have the time to treat each student as individuals - and wouldn't have the time to deal with each parent individually no matter what they think is the best for the students.

The system just doesn't have room for it.

[Guest]

You really think the fact that because someone is hired by a private school they are suddenly a better teacher than they were in the public system? Or are you trying to say something else?

I apologize for the bimbo remark. I see how it was misconstrued.

I'm going to butt in here, if I may...

No, the fact that a teacher is in private vs public school doesn't automatically make them better teachers.

What you are missing in this equation is that Private Schools can choose who they hire and fire. They can set their own criteria of what qualifications a teacher must have (over and beyond the state requirements) to teach in their schools. Public Schools, not as much.

So, if you got a bad teacher in a private school, chances are, if the private school cares about the quality of their education (and yes, I know a few that have a different idea of "quality") then they get rid of the bad teacher in a quickness before it sullies their reputation. The private school cannot. So that, bad teachers usually flock to the public school arena because that's where they are safe.

Edited March 17, 2011 by anatess

[Backroads]

You said,

"I just do not believe people should feel they should pick a school based soley on whether it is public or private. "

Some parents might not want a teacher because she's black.

I really think you overstretched what I said. Are you saying that because I think parents should look more into the schools they want parents will make stupid decisions? That seems to go against everything you're saying. Do you believe in school choice or do you believe in forcing kids to be in places so their parents don't make racist decisions?

It just seemed like you were taking an overt interest in the thinking process of parents when choosing a school as if they can't be trusted with such a decision. That to me screams "statist!" but I apologize if that is a mischaracterization.

I don't understand how I ever suggested that parents can't be trusted with a decision. ARE YOU SURE you read my statement?

"I just do not believe people should feel they should pick a school based soley on whether it is public or private. "

All I intended to say here was that there is a lot more to education than simple public vs private. I believe that parents should take the time to research different schools and teachers and pick what goes best for their child.

Are we having miscommunication here?

That was a very foolish statement. You have no idea how much time and effort I have put into making sure my kids are in the right school. It's because of that process that I'm well aware of the nuances.

Then why did you have such issues with me suggesting parents should look more into schools? The reason I said that was because you became very upset when I said there was more to picking a school than public vs private. If you are so well aware of the nuances, why bring up the above sttatement about parents making racist decisions? Do you or do you not believe in parents picking the school?

[Backroads]

I see I need to remind you again what you said, that private and public school teachers go through the exact same training. (scroll back) This is untrue. Every private and charter school sets their own criteria for qualifications and training. Teaching credentials aren't hard to come by, it's getting a college degree that serves as the bulk and basis for teachers' qualification to teach. After that, getting a license is a piece of cake.

I'll clarify. Many wannabe teachers do not enter college determined to be either a public or private school teacher. They want a teaching degree. There are alternative ways to get the teacher training, but there is nothing a private school will take that a public school won't, so perhaps you had better get your facts straight there. The college degree you mentioned is the SAME for all teachers. No teacher, unless specifically told to by a school, is going to go after some specific training.

[Backroads]

I'm going to butt in here, if I may...

No, the fact that a teacher is in private vs public school doesn't automatically make them better teachers.

What you are missing in this equation is that Private Schools can choose who they hire and fire. They can set their own criteria of what qualifications a teacher must have (over and beyond the state requirements) to teach in their schools. Public Schools, not as much.

So, if you got a bad teacher in a private school, chances are, if the private school cares about the quality of their education (and yes, I know a few that have a different idea of "quality") then they get rid of the bad teacher in a quickness before it sullies their reputation. The private school cannot. So that, bad teachers usually flock to the public school arena because that's where they are safe.

Oh, I totally understand that private schools have more firing power. I think everything you said here is a fair statement.

[Backroads]

About Vouchers and No Child Left Behind...

1.) Each school can set their own standards for acceptance into a grade level. A minimum requirement is set by the state. These standards are specific to the type of school. A school specializing in music may set a auditions as an added requirement to the minimum state standards. A school specilizing in developmental education for special needs children may have their own standards. Minimum requirements are not "broad brush" requirements. It may be done via standardized tests, psychological evaluations, and skill observation. The standardized testing is the general option - other types of testing is available for those who need it.

2.) What if no school will accept your child? If a child is not accepted in any of the schools and he refuses the vouchers, he can go to a State school (only requires minimum requirements for grade level).

As a fan of vouchers, I must argue #2.

So State Schools must now be punished with less intelligent students?

[Backroads]

Sorry, Backroads, but St. Mike is right on this one--generally, private school students are much better educated than public school students. The reasons for that are difficult to tease out, however.

I will give that generally private schools provide better results; I just want to argue that is not true every single time.

What I am trying to say is that private schools teachers are not necessarily better teachers than public school teachers.

[Guest]

I'll clarify. Many wannabe teachers do not enter college determined to be either a public or private school teacher. They want a teaching degree. There are alternative ways to get the teacher training, but there is nothing a private school will take that a public school won't, so perhaps you had better get your facts straight there. The college degree you mentioned is the SAME for all teachers. No teacher, unless specifically told to by a school, is going to go after some specific training.

But the opposite is not true... there are a lot more requirements needed to teach at certain private schools than is needed in public schools.

And yes, teachers DO go for these specific training to be able to teach in the private setting - because they can get paid more.

My son's teacher is a montessori certified, master's degree touting, private school teacher. It's the minimum requirement to teach 1st graders in that school. There's a montessori-magnet public elementary school in my county. They do not require montessori certification for their teachers - they only need it for their administrators and, of course, no master's degree required.

Edited March 17, 2011 by anatess

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

St Mike, you have a point about teachers unions but you might have some misconceptions here.

At least in Florida - teachers are stressed out. I am not even over-exaggerating this. The 2 years that I was trying to figure out what I can do for my son, I have one litany from all the teachers - I don't have time to talk to you right now... I set an appointment with the principal OR vice principal OR guidance counsellor and I never saw any of them for 6 months! SIX MONTHS! That's over half the school-year gone already!

And no, it is not the fault of the faculty... you should see the stuff they have to do to fulfill state requirements... just so they can get paid... and none of them has anything to do with teaching my kid something.

So, even with the advent of electronic communication - they just don't have the time to treat each student as individuals - and wouldn't have the time to deal with each parent individually no matter what they think is the best for the students.

The system just doesn't have room for it.

Teachers in Wisconsin should have a great deal of stress lifted from them. After all, they don't have any union meetings or requirements any more. In regard to emails, they can be quick and to the point and only need to be sent for students who miss assignments or do poorly on tests, not every single student.

You're right that there are no easy answers but the system needs to be overhauled so that those teachers who work harder and care more (as expressed in communicating with parents via advanced technology) can rise to the top. MOE is saying that parents should be more involved, but how can they be if teachers don't communicate? BTW, 6 months isn't being too busy, it's gross incompetence and laziness. I've annoyed my fair share of "too busy" teachers by showing up unannounced for an impromptu conference. I agree that teachers are busy, but as they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[Backroads]

Sorry... I edited my post to be more clear... Can you check it out and see if it answers this question?

It didn't, really. But it's my fault. My original question was somewhat a tangent.

I do like the idea of going with teachers who are requested time and time again. I really do. However, it can take a few years for a teacher to build a reputation. How long should a teacher be given before the school decides he/she is "popular" enough?