Why Preschool Shouldn't Be Like School

[MarginOfError]

I understand that you and Pam have a different perspective on this thing and I can respect that. What I don't understand or appreciate is the supercilious tone in your posts to me, not the least of which is this latest comment. I am not a stupid man. My military GT scores have put me in the top 5%. However, I digress the argument because it appears you can't restrain yourself from snide comments. Perhaps you should revisit how your personal experiences have debilitated you from discussing this issue in a rational manner.

Show me a rational argument then (something, by the way, you still haven't done).

As of yet, your argument has been

"They indoctrinate children in school, therefore public education is bad and we need to elect 'true' conservatives."

That's the complete antithesis of rational argument.

Also, you might want to keep in mind that I started this thread with an assumption that education in this country is screwed up. So be careful when you go accusing me of resisting change.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

i think head start can be a great program for kids, especially when (for whatever reason) the parents are not able to properly prepare them for school. there is more a kid needs before school starts than to be able to say letters and write a name.

as for the objections to the "political indoctrination" that goes on in head start that is everywhere. my kids never went to head start and they came home from school talking about global warming and such. yes it's going to be taught.

are ppl really so afraid of what their kids might learn? i just don't stress that so much. i don't think there is anything that can be taught in a few min at school that if i disagree i can't correct. i worry more about what the kids do, if they are being bullied and what not.

Gwen, when I was in 6th grade, the teacher took an adding machine paper roll and had us roll it around the room until it covered all 4 walls. Then the teacher filled in a 5 inch block using a felt tip pen to represent the amount of oil we have left in the world compared to the rest of the adding machine tape. It was not only a grevious error, but it was typical of the liberal hype that was being taught at the time; as well as the "hole" that was supposedly in the ozone layer. It's not learning that I have an objection to, it's indoctrination. I'm old fashioned I guess and believe that schools should stick to reading, writing, and arithmatic. I could have been sick on that day and not have been any stupider for missing that assignment.

[Guest]

Head start is not all about education. It is about development. That's why it was transferred to the Department of Health and Human Services in 1969.

Pam, you are making my point for me. Development IS Education and Education IS Development (see my post on Montessori)... Therefore, the Department of Education should have Development incorporated into their programs!

And that is how I tied my Saintmichael's NCLB comment with Head Start... because NCLB completely disregards the development challenges of education!

Edited March 17, 2011 by anatess

[MarginOfError]

And that is how I tied my Saintmichael's NCLB comment with Head Start... because NCLB completely disregards the development challenges of education!

Except disregarding development challenges of education is where Head Start succeeds and NCLB fails.

[Guest]

Except disregarding development challenges of education is where Head Start succeeds and NCLB fails.

MOE... I completely agree with you. But, taking my tax money to start something else that I'm already paying one department to do is a bad idea. And that's why I gave you MY story... that you promptly threw out as a "you don't know what Head Start is"...

My kids may not qualify for Head Start - yet, they have developmental challenges just like YOU do. And if I'm paying for a public school - they need to be able to deal with those challenges or give me my money back so I can take my kids to one that can!

Edited March 17, 2011 by anatess

[MarginOfError]

MOE... I completely agree with you. But, taking my tax money to start something else that I'm already paying one department to do is a bad idea. And that's why I gave you MY story... that you promptly threw out as a "you don't know what Head Start is"...

My kids may not qualify for Head Start - yet, they have developmental challenges just like YOU do. And if I'm paying for a public school - they need to be able to deal with those challenges or give me my money back so I can take them to one that can!

I think I finally just connected the dots on what you're talking about. I think I missed one of your posts :facepalm:

[Guest]

I think I finally just connected the dots on what you're talking about. I think I missed one of your posts :facepalm:

I completely get where you were coming from... and I think I jumped in the middle of you and Saintmichael which caused the confusion. No worries.

[Guest]

Gwen, when I was in 6th grade, the teacher took an adding machine paper roll and had us roll it around the room until it covered all 4 walls. Then the teacher filled in a 5 inch block using a felt tip pen to represent the amount of oil we have left in the world compared to the rest of the adding machine tape. It was not only a grevious error, but it was typical of the liberal hype that was being taught at the time; as well as the "hole" that was supposedly in the ozone layer. It's not learning that I have an objection to, it's indoctrination. I'm old fashioned I guess and believe that schools should stick to reading, writing, and arithmatic. I could have been sick on that day and not have been any stupider for missing that assignment.

It still goes on until today - but that is the problem with traditional education period - not just public schools. Because teachers are not robots devoid of opinions.

The difference between public and private is that I can take my money out of the private school - so they have to be careful with what they teach.

[applepansy]

As I started reading this thread I thought it would actually be helpful. It started out that way... then it got pulled into politics and misperceptions.

so....here I go:

I remember going to Kindergarten. I was in the very first Kindergarten class in Utah. There was a lot of political controversy around it and the class was held in a converted storage room. I learned social skills. I already knew my letters and numbers and not because Mom and Dad taught me at home.

When I had my kids, preschool was the new Kindergarten. They learned social skills and still knew their letters and numbers before Kindergarten. There was no longer political and its going to destroy family conversations about Preschool/Kindergarten.

Now... I'm raising my grandson. He will turn 3 on the 26th of this month. He knows his letters and numbers and I didn't teach him on purpose. I've only had him since he was 17 months old. He's not old enough for preschool. We were sitting at the DMV, they give you a number and a computer calls your number. Then it flashes above the station you're suppose to go to. We were there five minutes and he's yelling "Gramma, NUMBERS!!!" I recently found an ABC game online. It doesn't matter which key the child pushes on the keyboard it goes to the next letter. But... my grandson finds the right lettered key. I am NOT actively teaching him, but at the rate he's learning he will read before Kindergarten. He sees a stop sign, says the letters then says "name stop." I didn't even know he knew the letter sounds. Because of that fact I'm probably going to home school as well as send him to Preschool and Kindergarten...he needs those desperately for the socialization.

Because of the neglect my grandson suffered my new son-in-law suggested Head Start for him. Because of our income he doesn't qualify and because of his dexterity and how fast he's learning he doesn't qualify. I'm grateful for the Head Start program though. I know families who are struggling with poverty even with both parents working. Head Start helps their children and that's how it should be. And that's why its under Health and Human Services. Its a good program and it needs to stay funded.

I do not agree with the political and bash-the-conservative-Mormons comments Saintmichael has posted. Some of his comments made me laugh out loud. And Anatess? Really? Are you seriously that clueless about Head Start?.... retorical question. Anatess your comments answer it. You are obviously upset with the American school system and with cause. I'm upset with our school system too. But lets not through the baby out with the bath water. There are some positives.

Gwen, I agree!!! Our schools have been trying to stop kids from thinking for themselves for over 40 years. I remember my brother getting in trouble in 4th grade for daydreaming and staring out the window. Our mother asked him what he was thinking about. He said the Astronauts and how they got up in space. The teacher didn't even think to ask. She just got upset at him for not doing what the class was doing and he was punished. What a wasted learning experience!!!

I think my grandson is special (I'm biased)... BUT what I'm seeing in Nursery at church is that all his age group are learning so much faster than my kids did. Seriously and very obviously faster. Everyone in our ward and area (mormon and non-mormon) are mentioning how fast kids are learning. Everywhere I go I hear about how much faster kids are learning.

MOE, great article. I am a firm believer in giving children opportunities to learn and then let them have at it. I am also very much for programs like Head Start where teachers who are trained to look for learning deficits can intervene when its easiest to correct a problem. After a child's learning blocks are resolved ... its time to get out of the way and let them learn.

I'm finding that my perspectives on parenting have changed. I already did this once with four children. I have learned what worked and what didn't .... sort of Kids will always throw you a curve.

Right now... I'm just trying to keep up with my grandson and falling woefully behind :)

When we are told by a prophet that the best spirits were saved for the last days, I don't doubt it. They are showing us how special they all are. Even when they click on the mouse while mom is shopping online and show her a prettier rug ( Gwen)

EDIT: Anatess... I'm sorry. I see you do understand Head Start and I had the same confusion MOE did. However, let still not throw the baby out with the bath water. I do not mind one little bit paying for public education. It fills a very big need. Does it need to be modified? YES! But, I believe we all have a responsibility to help all children learn. Public education while not perfect isn't all bad.

Edited March 17, 2011 by applepansy
addition

[Wingnut]

Perhaps you should revisit how your personal experiences have debilitated you from discussing this issue in a rational manner.

I disagree. I think Pam and MOE's personal experiences make them better qualified to discuss the issue. And as MOE said, I have yet to see you discuss the issue in any manner other than throwing out random accusations.

[MorningStar]

I'm still not real smart. When people ask me how old I am, I tell them, "This many." Then I hold up my fingers a bunch of times until I think I think it added to 36.

[Guest]

EDIT: Anatess... I'm sorry. I see you do understand Head Start and I had the same confusion MOE did. However, let still not throw the baby out with the bath water. I do not mind one little bit paying for public education. It fills a very big need. Does it need to be modified? YES! But, I believe we all have a responsibility to help all children learn. Public education while not perfect isn't all bad.

Now you got me confused...

I reread all my posts - including my first giant post... and I just don't see how y'all got confused over what I said.

Public education as a concept is not bad. Public education as it is implemented TODAY is bad. Okay, I have to qualify... Public education as it is implemented TODAY in FLORIDA is bad, although I've heard it is as bad in a lot of states.

[Wingnut]

I'm still not real smart. When people ask me how old I am, I tell them, "This many." Then I hold up my fingers a bunch of times until I think I think it added to 36.

It's a wonder you can count that high at all.

[applepansy]

Now you got me confused...

I reread all my posts - including my first giant post... and I just don't see how y'all got confused over what I said.

Public education as a concept is not bad. Public education as it is implemented TODAY is bad. Okay, I have to qualify... Public education as it is implemented TODAY in FLORIDA is bad, although I've heard it is as bad in a lot of states.

Public education is only as good as the parents and teachers make it. Public education does a lot of good. There are people who would never have any type of education with out it. And that is why I will gladly pay my taxes to public schools.

The other point is... Kids will get out of their learning experiences exactly what they put into them. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. This applies to children. My oldest son (high IQ) totally blew off his education. He was in Utah's public schools and I home schooled his 9th grade year. No one could make him take advantage of the opportunity.

There are three groups of people who make Public education what is is: Parents, Teachers and children. All three are responsible for the successes and the failures.

You can argue that our law makers are a fourth group, but I will argue that even though they hold the purse strings they do NOT have direct daily influence on the day-to-day learning experience.

If you want your schools to be better in Florida, then get involved.

[MarginOfError]

Now you got me confused...

I reread all my posts - including my first giant post... and I just don't see how y'all got confused over what I said.

Public education as a concept is not bad. Public education as it is implemented TODAY is bad. Okay, I have to qualify... Public education as it is implemented TODAY in FLORIDA is bad, although I've heard it is as bad in a lot of states.

We never doubted that. Somewhere along the line I think we got the impression that you were anti-Head Start. But more recently, it sounds like you just think it's stupid that Head Start is under Health and Human Services and not Education.

[Jenamarie]

for the successes and the failures.

You can argue that our law makers are a fourth group, but I will argue that even though they hold the purse strings they do NOT have direct daily influence on the day-to-day learning experience.

Not necessarily. Law makers (at all levels), administrators, and other non-teaching people, are often the ones who chose the curriculum that teachers are *required* to teach from, which does have an effect on a student's day-to-day learning experience. If the curriculum they choose is sub-par (but they got a nice kick-back from the publisher), the teacher's hands are often tied if they want to change it. Also, sometimes the pressure law-makers put on teachers to produce results (i.e. high test scores) undermines their desire to give the children an appropriate education, as their forced to teach kids what is going to be on the test, even if the teacher feels that some of their students may not necessarily be ready to grasp the concepts they'll be tested on. They have to put their focus on getting those children that are "behind" caught up, at the expense of time spent with students who are average, or above average and ready to move on to more challenging work.

[Guest]

We never doubted that. Somewhere along the line I think we got the impression that you were anti-Head Start. But more recently, it sounds like you just think it's stupid that Head Start is under Health and Human Services and not Education.

Yikes, I don't think you understand me completely yet...

Okay, here it is simply put:

The ENTIRE Department of Education (from Kindergarten to 12th grade) should incorporate the concepts of Head Start.... it shouldn't be a pre-K thing.

[applepansy]

Not necessarily. Law makers (at all levels), administrators, and other non-teaching people, are often the ones who chose the curriculum that teachers are *required* to teach from, which does have an effect on a student's day-to-day learning experience. If the curriculum they choose is sub-par (but they got a nice kick-back from the publisher), the teacher's hands are often tied if they want to change it. Also, sometimes the pressure law-makers put on teachers to produce results (i.e. high test scores) undermines their desire to give the children an appropriate education, as their forced to teach kids what is going to be on the test, even if the teacher feels that some of their students may not necessarily be ready to grasp the concepts they'll be tested on. They have to put their focus on getting those children that are "behind" caught up, at the expense of time spent with students who are average, or above average and ready to move on to more challenging work.

I've seen more than a few wonderful teachers take substandard curriculum and turn it into a wonderful learning experience.

I also think "no child left behind" needs to be scraped.

[MorningStar]

It's a wonder you can count that high at all.

I can't. My mom told me I'm 36 and I remembered it. Or was it 3+6?

[Jenamarie]

I've seen more than a few wonderful teachers take substandard curriculum and turn it into a wonderful learning experience.

I also think "no child left behind" needs to be scraped.

I've seen that happen as well (re-tooling a sub-par curriculum), but teachers already spend SO. MUCH. TIME in prep-work and grading and "required" meetings, etc. I'd rather they just be allowed to choose their own curriculum (or be allowed to at least choose from a pool of pre-approved curriculum) than add more to their plates by making them re-tool something that shouldn't even be in their tool box to begin with.

And I 100% agree with the last part of your post.

(and as far as my "qualifications" in this subject go go, I was raised by TWO elementary teachers, so I've seen first hand how hard they work to give their students a quality education, I've heard them vent their frustrations at their hands being tied in certain areas, and the extreme pressure they're put under from administrators to produce "results" no matter what learning challenges their students may be presenting them with.)

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I do not agree with the political and bash-the-conservative-Mormons comments Saintmichael has posted. Some of his comments made me laugh out loud.

It seems you're unfamiliar with the political angle altogether and understandably are trying to keep it out of the discussion. But taxpayer dollars are involved and so it is a political issue. And who is bashing the conservative Mormon? My position is the conservative position and anatess's idea of school vouchers is wildly popular among conservatives. You're reading both our comments but it seems you're reading without understanding either of us. Right now we have a great disparity in our school system where public schools receive public funds and those who opt out and send their children to private school or homeschool still have to pay taxes for other people's children to go to public school. School vouchers would level the playing field because the money would go where the parents decide. The reason the statists oppose this is because public schools would falter in a competitive market. Parents are largely concerned with three things, academic excellence, discipline, and family values (or at least not undermining them). Public schools have failed miserably in all three categories.

"Socialism is for the people, not the socialists." All the people who want to send your kids and my kids to public schools send their own kids to the most expensive charter schools to get a higher education. This is no different than the Soviet nomenclatura class that would opt their own children out of the socialist programs they designed for everyone else. If public schools are so great, then why don't its loudest advocates send their kids there? Instead, they want to send your kids and mine while their own are being groomed for an Ivy League education.

You can LOL at all of this, but this is the view of many pissed-off Americans and none of us are laughing.

[applepansy]

I've seen that happen as well (re-tooling a sub-par curriculum), but teachers already spend SO. MUCH. TIME in prep-work and grading and "required" meetings, etc. I'd rather they just be allowed to choose their own curriculum (or be allowed to at least choose from a pool of pre-approved curriculum) than add more to their plates by making them re-tool something that shouldn't even be in their tool box to begin with.

And I 100% agree with the last part of your post.

(and as far as my "qualifications" in this subject go go, I was raised by TWO elementary teachers, so I've seen first hand how hard they work to give their students a quality education, I've heard them vent their frustrations at their hands being tied in certain areas, and the extreme pressure they're put under from administrators to produce "results" no matter what learning challenges their students may be presenting them with.)

Jenn, I'm not disagreeing with you. Teachers work very hard. But my original comment still stands. The three groups who make learning in school successful are Parents, Teachers and Children.

Administration and law makers are where we need to improve the system.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I've seen more than a few wonderful teachers take substandard curriculum and turn it into a wonderful learning experience.

And these wonderful, hard working teachers should be paid more, but the unions make sure that merit based pay will never happen.

I also think "no child left behind" needs to be scraped.

Yes! Now you're on it! I like how you used "scraped" instead of "scrapped." NCLB does seem like something to be scraped off the bottom of our shoes.

[Guest]

Public education is only as good as the parents and teachers make it. Public education does a lot of good. There are people who would never have any type of education with out it. And that is why I will gladly pay my taxes to public schools.

The other point is... Kids will get out of their learning experiences exactly what they put into them. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. This applies to children. My oldest son (high IQ) totally blew off his education. He was in Utah's public schools and I home schooled his 9th grade year. No one could make him take advantage of the opportunity.

There are three groups of people who make Public education what is is: Parents, Teachers and children. All three are responsible for the successes and the failures.

You can argue that our law makers are a fourth group, but I will argue that even though they hold the purse strings they do NOT have direct daily influence on the day-to-day learning experience.

If you want your schools to be better in Florida, then get involved.

Wow... applepansy, the first part of your post was acceptable... your last line ruined it!

If there's anybody involved in Public School System in Florida it is ME. I took out my child out of Public School because it is NOT WORKABLE. I spent 2 years of my life - and my child's life - trying to effect change.

The reason it is NOT WORKABLE is because of the LAWS - so no, YOUR LAWMAKER makes a very BIG impact on your child's education. You probably just haven't seen it yet! IT IS COMPLETELY because this Public Education - especially in Florida - is not workable, if your kid is like mine! Now, if you're a quiet, toe-the-line, satisfied with mediocrity kind of kid, yep, it works perfectly.

Just some highlights for you:

- The only way you can go to the public school of your choice without moving (some are better than others) is if you get accepted to a magnet program. Magnet programs at the elementary level are difficult to qualify for. Middle and High Schools are easier but still a challenge. Therefore, if your school in your district is bad... you're out of luck!

- BY LAW, kids are segregated by grade according to age at Kindergarten and 1st Grade level. You have to be 6 by Sept 1 to join Kindergarten, 7 to join 1st Grade. If you are born on the first week of September, you have to wait until the next year to join Kindergarten even if you are more than ready to attend. Now, if you are born the last week of August, sure you can go ahead and sign up for Kindergarten REGARDLESS if you're ready for it! So, the smart September kids are super bored, the slow August kids are left behind. If you are a regular kid born in March - yep, Public School is perfect for you.

- Florida instituted the FCAT program - standardized testing from 3rd through 12th grade - the results of which directly impact Teacher's pay and that particular School's Funding. It is BY LAW. Teachers are now teaching how to pass the FCAT instead of teaching the lessons in the proper manner. Each school is requiring a lot of administrative stuff from all the teachers to take benchmarks to make sure that kids will pass FCAT with high scores.

My son is a very smart kid. But he cannot sit still for too long. He just can't. An FCAT test can take 2 - 3 hours. He is always in danger of failing the stupid FCAT! So, the teachers... stressed enough as it is... are always at my back telling me to prepare my kid for FCAT! FCAT IS NOT MY GAUGE OF MY KID'S KNOWLEDGE! I don't care if he fails it!

Another kid in our school is visually challenged... Yeah, good luck with him passing FCAT with high scores.

I can walk at any hour into my child's school and 7 times out of 10, the kids are "testing"... practicing FCAT... instead of learning (see my post on Montessori).

Is it the teachers fault? NOPE... Is it the parents' fault? NOPE... Is it the student's fault! DOUBLE NOPE! IT IS THE STUPID PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM.

I can give you 5 other things that I tried to change in our school system here that were critical to kids' learning... Not only my kids, but all kids in general. All fell into deaf ears. I went all the way to the president of the School Board...

You say the name Anatess in our school board, they all cringe and say, "PEST!".

So, yeah, don't give me your high and mighty "school is what you make of it".. It is BALONEY in THIS SYSTEM.

Now, about school being important and you not minding paying tax money into it... that's what they are saying about Healthcare too. And I'm against THAT! No, not because I don't think I should pay for somebody's healthcare... It's because I cannot allow a government who can mess up royally like they are doing in the Department of Education getting more opportunities to mess up other stuff!

Edited March 17, 2011 by anatess

[applepansy]

Wow... applepansy, the first part of your post was acceptable... your last line ruined it!

If there's anybody involved in Public School System in Florida it is ME. I took out my child out of Public School because it is NOT WORKABLE. I spent 2 years of my life - and my child's life - trying to effect change.

So, yeah, don't give me your high and mighty "school is what you make of it".. It is BALONEY in THIS SYSTEM.

It is what you make it and you can be offended all you choose to be. If you don't like your schools then run for office or work to support electing those with your values. There is more than one way to make things better.

I'm sorry you've taken my comments so personally. I did not type the words with the emotions you're giving me.

Good Grief...I really hit your sore spot today didn't I. I'm against socialized health care btw.