applepansy Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Another of many threads here that start out positive and end up filled with contention and misunderstanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintmichaeldefendthem1 Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Anatess, you bring up an interesting point. A lot of us are supportive of merit based pay, but the only reliable method for determining the effectiveness of a teacher are tests. I see two conflicting problems here: 1. Teachers in the current system are not encouraged to work any harder than they have to. Caring more and working harder may provide personal satisfaction, but it doesn't translate into more pay. 2. The senario you laid out shows an attempt to fix this problem that has some serious flaws to it hampering "real" education. What is the solution? How do you think this can be handled? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
applepansy Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 You can LOL at all of this, but this is the view of many pissed-off Americans and none of us are laughing.Scroll back.... I hit the laugh button on ONE postand.... I'm finished with this thread as it has dissolved into contention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Jenn, I'm not disagreeing with you. Teachers work very hard. But my original comment still stands. The three groups who make learning in school successful are Parents, Teachers and Children.Administration and law makers are where we need to improve the system.It lookes like you may have your head in the sand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) It is what you make it and you can be offended all you choose to be. If you don't like your schools then run for office or work to support electing those with your values. There is more than one way to make things better.I'm sorry you've taken my comments so personally. I did not type the words with the emotions you're giving me.Good Grief...I really hit your sore spot today didn't I. I'm against socialized health care btw.I AM NOT AMERICAN! I can't run for office, nor vote!It is only in contention because I disagreed with YOU and you fire back with stuff like this: "If you don't like your schools then run for office or work to support electing those with your values."Yes, you hit my sore spot when you said - If you don't like your school system GET INVOLVED. After the hell I've been through with our School Board... yeah, it hits a nerve.You are against socialized healthcare but is for socialized education. Beats the life out of me. Edited March 17, 2011 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 And........countdown to thread close begins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Anatess, you bring up an interesting point. A lot of us are supportive of merit based pay, but the only reliable method for determining the effectiveness of a teacher are tests. I see two conflicting problems here:1. Teachers in the current system are not encouraged to work any harder than they have to. Caring more and working harder may provide personal satisfaction, but it doesn't translate into more pay.2. The senario you laid out shows an attempt to fix this problem that has some serious flaws to it hampering "real" education.What is the solution? How do you think this can be handled?VOUCHERS! Let the parents CHOOSE what school they want their kid in! A good teacher can be rewarded by the number of parents who want their kids to be taught by HER! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarginOfError Posted March 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Parents are largely concerned with three things, academic excellence, discipline, and family values (or at least not undermining them). Public schools have failed miserably in all three categories.Yet, public schools have very little to no control over the latter two of those categories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningStar Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 One thing that bothered me is that we got a letter from the school district saying that with the state testing, the low income students in our school didn't score high enough, so we were given the choice to change schools as long as there was space available. Our family is low income and I found this insulting. My children do very well in school and my son scored above average on that test, so he got a congratulations letter from the governor. Why couldn't they just say that the school as a whole didn't test high enough instead of making the low income parents feel like their kids are inferior? It ignored the fact that we have so many kids at our school with English as a 2nd language and of course they didn't do as well in math because they kept getting pulled out of class during that time for various reasons. It wasn't because the teachers weren't teaching right. The schedule needed to be changed and the kids pulled out for their special services during a better time. The school up the hill is not very ethnically diverse at all, so of course they have better scores. Most of their kids were born here. Our school has a much better record when it comes to helping kids with special needs. A friend of mine asked for a variance so her kids could go to a "better school" due to the scores. It was suggested that I ask for a variance, but I want my kids exposed to children of different cultures and to be a friend to them. I can't even pronounce half of the names in my kids' classes. They sure are cute though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintmichaeldefendthem1 Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Yet, public schools have very little to no control over the latter two of those categories.Oh, you couldn't be more incorrect! My elementary school was strict and I got in trouble with my mouth when I said "d***" which today is considered a really benign word. Compare that to what happens today where in many schools teachers don't even try to control the nonstop string of profanities coming out of the mouths of students. Sure, they'll expell you if you accidentally have a Swiss Army knife in your backpack after a scouting trip, but hats, chewing gum, and profanity...all ok.And family values are being undermined when schoolkids are taught that families may consist of a mom and dad, or 2 moms or 2 dads, or a trangender, etc and that it's ok to be gay and live that lifestyle, and look, here's how you put a condom on, we'll use vegetables for the demonstration. But the biggest reason you're wrong in saying public schools have little control over that is because private schools provide an atmosphere of discipline, teach values that correspond with those taught at home, and do so while achieving academic excellence that public schools cannot compete with. If it can be done in private schools, it can be done in public schools as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintmichaeldefendthem1 Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 VOUCHERS! Let the parents CHOOSE what school they want their kid in! A good teacher can be rewarded by the number of parents who want their kids to be taught by HER!I agree. Better teachers with good recommendations can score higher paying jobs and the lazy ones can work at Head Start! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningStar Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'm not a fan of teachers' unions. Actually, unions in general. You get automatic pay increases no matter how well you do - no extra raises for exceptional teaching and pay goes up if you're a rotten teacher. My husband took a union job and they absolutely love him, but they can't reward him for being the least lazy out of all of the maintenance guys they have. They did almost fire one guy because he charged them a lot of overtime with very little to show for it. He works at night when no one is around (by his choice), so there is no proof he didn't sit on his bum for hours. I wish we had LDS private schools. I think a lot of non-LDS people would enroll their kids too like they do with Catholic schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintmichaeldefendthem1 Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 I wish we had LDS private schools. I think a lot of non-LDS people would enroll their kids too like they do with Catholic schools. Dr. Laura enthusiastically endorsed BYU after they suspended that basketball player for fornication. I think returning to private education could only be a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 There are private schools out there that are LDS focused, but are not officially LDS endorsed. I was in a teacher's union. I don't think I'll bother again. It was...whining. I'm actually against unions in general with few exceptions. I'm all for people banding together if there is a problem and whatnot, and I think stuff like that can happen naturally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 But the biggest reason you're wrong in saying public schools have little control over that is because private schools provide an atmosphere of discipline, teach values that correspond with those taught at home, and do so while achieving academic excellence that public schools cannot compete with. If it can be done in private schools, it can be done in public schools as well.Oh, dear. Are you really going to generalize public vs private schools? A coworker of mine just yanked her son out of a private school because they weren't teaching the kid a darned thing. Private schools are merely businesses and just because a school is private does not mean it's a GOOD school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 VOUCHERS! Let the parents CHOOSE what school they want their kid in! A good teacher can be rewarded by the number of parents who want their kids to be taught by HER!What about when it becomes a popularity thing and not a skill thing? When I was teaching, a parent flat-out said she did not want her kids in so-n-so's class because the teacher, despite excellent teaching methods, had cerebral palsy.That being said, I'm in favor of vouchers. I just think the parents should also study up on what school/teacher they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarginOfError Posted March 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Oh, you couldn't be more incorrect! My elementary school was strict and I got in trouble with my mouth when I said "d***" which today is considered a really benign word. Compare that to what happens today where in many schools teachers don't even try to control the nonstop string of profanities coming out of the mouths of students. Sure, they'll expell you if you accidentally have a Swiss Army knife in your backpack after a scouting trip, but hats, chewing gum, and profanity...all ok.And family values are being undermined when schoolkids are taught that families may consist of a mom and dad, or 2 moms or 2 dads, or a trangender, etc and that it's ok to be gay and live that lifestyle, and look, here's how you put a condom on, we'll use vegetables for the demonstration. But the biggest reason you're wrong in saying public schools have little control over that is because private schools provide an atmosphere of discipline, teach values that correspond with those taught at home, and do so while achieving academic excellence that public schools cannot compete with. If it can be done in private schools, it can be done in public schools as well.Hmmmm....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintmichaeldefendthem1 Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Oh, dear. Are you really going to generalize public vs private schools? A coworker of mine just yanked her son out of a private school because they weren't teaching the kid a darned thing. Private schools are merely businesses and just because a school is private does not mean it's a GOOD school.Right. An anecdote to disprove the trend. Multiple studies have already concluded that students in homeschool, private, or charter schools outperform their public school counterparts by significant margins. It's because private schools are businesses that they are far more responsive and accountable to parents. Or are you one of those who says don't trust businesses because they're trying to make money but....trust the government? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Anatess, you bring up an interesting point. A lot of us are supportive of merit based pay, but the only reliable method for determining the effectiveness of a teacher are tests.How are tests reliable? How can we create valid and reliable tests that will apply the same way to kids from different cultures, backgrounds, learning styles, mental capabilities, etc?I see two conflicting problems here:1. Teachers in the current system are not encouraged to work any harder than they have to. Caring more and working harder may provide personal satisfaction, but it doesn't translate into more pay.As someone who has taught, I agree. It's hard to devote long days. Then again, often hard work translates to long hours, and most people have no interest in abandoning other parts of their life to hang out in a school for twelve hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Oh, dear. Are you really going to generalize public vs private schools? A coworker of mine just yanked her son out of a private school because they weren't teaching the kid a darned thing. Private schools are merely businesses and just because a school is private does not mean it's a GOOD school.There's the big difference... you CAN yank your kid out of private school and move him to a better one for the same dime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) Right. An anecdote to disprove the trend. Multiple studies have already concluded that students in homeschool, private, or charter schools outperform their public school counterparts by significant margins. It's because private schools are businesses that they are far more responsive and accountable to parents. Or are you one of those who says don't trust businesses because they're trying to make money but....trust the government?Not at all. I'm merely saying that it is extremely unwise to assume that the nature of the school (public, public charter, or private) has very little to do with the school's and teacher's capabilities. I can give you plenty more anectdotes, trust me. I have worked with many teachers who have tried both private and public. Most prefer the public sector because there is better pay and better support. You do realize that private schools do not expect different education from their teachers? No university offers a program for public school teachers and a different one for private school teachers.Are you really trying to suggest that all private schools are superior to all public schools? Are you really trying to suggest that some bimbo who was hired at a private school is more intelligent and capable than someone who was hired by a public school?And no, I don't say "trust the government". I just do not believe people should feel they should pick a school based soley on whether it is public or private. Edited March 17, 2011 by Backroads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) Sigh... sorry, maybe I'm just being sensitive.After reading this thread, I'm really getting the impression that you all look down on public school teachers. I can't be thinking that way.Quote:Originally Posted by anatess There's the big difference... you CAN yank your kid out of private school and move him to a better one for the same dime. What about the parents who refuse to study the different schools and only go for the budget schools? Edited March 17, 2011 by Backroads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 · Hidden Hidden There's the big difference... you CAN yank your kid out of private school and move him to a better one for the same dime.What about the parents who refuse to study the different schools and only go for the budget schools? Link to comment
Saintmichaeldefendthem1 Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Not at all. I'm merely saying that it is extremely unwise to assume that the nature of the school (public, public charter, or private) has very little to do with the school's and teacher's capabilities. I can give you plenty more anectdotes, trust me. I have worked with many teachers who have tried both private and public. Most prefer the public sector because there is better pay and better support. Therein lies the problem. The free market is the truest arbiter of what is fair pay, but the unions queer the system by demanding pay raises and benefits to the horizon and beyond. Vouchers that could be accepted at private or public schools would even out the pay scales and ensure that the highest pay and benefits go to the best schools and teachers.You do realize that private schools do not expect different education from their teachers? No university offers a program for public school teachers and a different one for private school teachers. What??Are you really trying to suggest that all private schools are superior to all public schools? Are you really trying to suggest that some bimbo who was hired at a private school is more intelligent and capable than someone who was hired by a public school?Bimbo? Of course, you're not biased! It's schools that set the standards, not the teachers and MOST private schools have higher academic standards that public schools, yes I am saying that. BTW, are homeschools taught by bimbos too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintmichaeldefendthem1 Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 And no, I don't say "trust the government". I just do not believe people should feel they should pick a school based soley on whether it is public or private.So you don't believe in school choice. Thank you for identifying yourself as a statist; it certainly clarifies the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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