Why Preschool Shouldn't Be Like School

[MarginOfError]

Oh yes, the much touted "No Child Left Behind" program. Some have noted humorously with the onset of teachers having sex with students that some teachers have taken it to mean "No Child's Behind Left Behind". There is a huge disconnect between true conservatives who would like to see another Ronald Reagan, who by the way tried to abolish the Department of Education, and GWB who expanded federal power over state decisions regarding education, a domain that used to be reserved exclusively to the states. NCLB should be rescinded with profuse apologies and we need to start electing real conservatives. We're already off to a good start.

I'm not sure what your point is in saying all that, but okay.

Oh, and just for the record, I think you'd be surprised how many liberals despise No (Every?) Child Left Behind.

[pam]

Interesting. With the hundreds of hours I volunteered with Head Start I saw nothing like this. We worked with kids on learning colors, how to count and other basic skills to prepare them to enter elementary school. So I also think I know a little bit about what I'm talking about too.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I'm not sure what your point is in saying all that, but okay.

Oh, and just for the record, I think you'd be surprised how many liberals despise No (Every?) Child Left Behind.

You'd be surprise how many conservatives despise it. This is an overreach of federal power. Liberals are eclectic about what overreaches they like or dislike. True conservatives loath them all.

[Guest]

I'm trying to figure what NCLB has to do with Head Start.

I wasn't talking about Head Start...

[pam]

That wasn't directed at you.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Interesting. With the hundreds of hours I volunteered with Head Start I saw nothing like this. We worked with kids on learning colors, how to count and other basic skills to prepare them to enter elementary school. So I also think I know a little bit about what I'm talking about too.

Maybe we're both right, dear. My friend works in California.

[MarginOfError]

Pam and Marginoferror, I have a friend who works at a Head Start school. Since she's conservative, she's more than willing to divulge all the liberal indoctrinations that go on there. So with all due respect, I DO know what I'm talking about.

No, you really don't. You know about one aspect of one Head Start program and have zeroed in so intensely on it that you fail to see the other 17 dimensions required to fully evaluate the program.

For instance, consider the fact that it was in Head Start that I learned to hold a pencil. It was in Head Start that I learned to socially integrate with other children. Those were skills I desperately needed before starting school, and my family was much too poor to afford teachers trained to help develop those skills.

I'm afraid that in this instance, you've proven yourself nothing more than a political hack looking for any excuse to attack 'liberalism' that you can get your hands on. I refer you to Gwen's post about school structures inadvertently rendering children unable to think critically or think for themselves and declare you a victim.

[pam]

Have you ever volunteered with Head Start?

[Guest]

No, you really don't. You know about one aspect of one Head Start program and have zeroed in so intensely on it that you fail to see the other 17 dimensions required to fully evaluate the program.

For instance, consider the fact that it was in Head Start that I learned to hold a pencil. It was in Head Start that I learned to socially integrate with other children. Those were skills I desperately needed before starting school, and my family was much too poor to afford teachers trained to help develop those skills.

I'm afraid that in this instance, you've proven yourself nothing more than a political hack looking for any excuse to attack 'liberalism' that you can get your hands on. I refer you to Gwen's post about school structures inadvertently rendering children unable to think critically or think for themselves and declare you a victim.

Great story...

Except... I don't understand why you need a paid teacher to teach you how to hold a pencil... all you need is 50 cents for a pack of crayons and another 25 cents for pencils and start coloring your bedroom walls with it. That's what my kids did!

It even taught me that you can't paint over crayons nor pencils without first washing them off. Not even the regular primer could do it!

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Have you ever volunteered with Head Start?

Are only Head Start volunteers a part of an exclusive club that gets to comment on what goes on there? I'm a taxpayer, therefore I am qualified to comment on how my taxpayer dollars are misused.

[Wingnut]

Am I the only one who is confused by whatever it is that Saintmichael thinks he's saying?

[Guest]

Am I the only one who is confused by whatever it is that Saintmichael thinks he's saying?

I doubt you're the only one...

But, the real question is... am I the only one who understands what Saintmichael is saying?

[MarginOfError]

Great story...

Except... I don't understand why you need a paid teacher to teach you how to hold a pencil... all you need is 50 cents for a pack of crayons and another 25 cents for pencils and start coloring your bedroom walls with it. That's what my kids did!

It even taught me that you can't paint over crayons nor pencils without first washing them off. Not even the regular primer could do it!

Sounds strange, I know. But I physically could not hold a pencil at age 4. The only way I could hold things like pencils or crayons was to grip them in a closed fist. That kind of a grip doesn't allow the control needed for writing, or even for simply coloring in the lines. In my year at Head Start, the teachers had me doing various exercises to strengthen the muscles in my fingers to the point that I could use a pencil or crayon or marker.

Could my parents have taught me that? Sure. But that assumes that they recognized that I had a physical limitation. They that that I simply wasn't expressing interest in learning the skill. The Head Start teachers saw right away that I had the physical limitation. So in that aspect, the trained teachers were able to see the problem for what it was. But I wasn't admitted to Head Start based on my writing inability. I was admitted for my poor social integration skills.

[pam]

Are only Head Start volunteers a part of an exclusive club that gets to comment on what goes on there? I'm a taxpayer, therefore I am qualified to comment on how my taxpayer dollars are misused.

I'm just asking. Sometimes those that have never seen a program in action don't have a full comprehension of what a program is all about.

[MarginOfError]

I doubt you're the only one...

But, the real question is... am I the only one who understands what Saintmichael is saying?

For the most part, I understand what he's saying. I just think he's being a simpleton about the issue.

You, on the other hand, seem to recognize a little more nuance in the situation than that other guy.

[Guest]

Sounds strange, I know. But I physically could not hold a pencil at age 4. The only way I could hold things like pencils or crayons was to grip them in a closed fist. That kind of a grip doesn't allow the control needed for writing, or even for simply coloring in the lines. In my year at Head Start, the teachers had me doing various exercises to strengthen the muscles in my fingers to the point that I could use a pencil or crayon or marker.

Could my parents have taught me that? Sure. But that assumes that they recognized that I had a physical limitation. They that that I simply wasn't expressing interest in learning the skill. The Head Start teachers saw right away that I had the physical limitation. So in that aspect, the trained teachers were able to see the problem for what it was. But I wasn't admitted to Head Start based on my writing inability. I was admitted for my poor social integration skills.

My story...

My kid is left-handed (unbeknownst to me at the time). My mother was living with us at the time and insisted he hold pencils/crayons/etc with his right hand. Then, of course, he had to sit down to write/color/etc. which he never wanted to do - sitting still for more than a minute is his idea of prison... hence, I let him write on his bedroom walls just so it would be fun for him.

Anyway, he started kindergarten not knowing how to write properly. Could he have benefited from Head Start? Of course. But, I always say - if he is not learning it in Kindergarten, he needs a different teacher.

Sadly, I know most of the Public School Teachers next to my house are too busy with administrative stuff that they don't have the time teach kids on an individual need basis... So, if you're too advanced, or too behind, you're out of luck!

THAT needs to change... or give me a voucher so I can take my kids to a better teacher (I'm spending buckoo money for the Montessori!). So, in my opinion, Head Start is a waste of my tax money.

Edited March 17, 2011 by anatess

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

We're having a discussion and the one who first resorts to ad hominen is the one who has failed in critical thinking and lost the argument. So you had a great experience at a Head Start school. It makes this issue personal to you, not to mention emotional, whereas it's not personal to me. Yes, my view is simple that we need to get rid of public education altogether and getting the federal government out of education is a good start. It's an argument I can defend intelligently if we can leave personal experiences out of it and quit making bogey-men out of anyone who disagrees with you.

[MarginOfError]

My story...

My kid is left-handed (unbeknownst to me at the time). My mother was living with us at the time and insisted he hold pencils/crayons/etc with his right hand. Then, of course, he had to sit down to write/color/etc. which he never wanted to do - sitting still for more than a minute is his idea of prison... hence, I let him write on his bedroom walls just so it would be fun for him.

Anyway, he started kindergarten not knowing how to write properly. Could he have benefited from Head Start? Of course. But, I always say - if he is not learning it in Kindergarten, he needs a different teacher.

Sadly, I know most of the Public School Teachers next to my house are too busy with administrative stuff that they don't have the time teach kids on an individual need basis... So, if you're too advanced, or too behind, you're out of luck!

THAT needs to change... or give me a voucher so I can take my kids to a better teacher (I'm spending buckoo money for the Montessori!). So, in my opinion, Head Start is a waste of my tax money.

Alright, I'm guessing you don't really understand Head Start either. But that's okay.

[Guest]

Alright, I'm guessing you don't really understand Head Start either. But that's okay.

Okay, I accepted that comment against Saintmichael because he's a big boy and can defend himself.

That's a stupid comment addressed to ME but I don't require your apology. I forgive you since you're taking this all on a personal basis.

No, I don't know Head Start specific to Utah. But, I know Head Start at the National Level as part of the Department of Health and Human Services.

And that's what I'm trying to tell you. Education can stay at the Department of Education.

Edited March 17, 2011 by anatess

[MarginOfError]

We're having a discussion and the one who first resorts to ad hominen is the one who has failed in critical thinking and lost the argument. So you had a great experience at a Head Start school. It makes this issue personal to you, not to mention emotional, whereas it's not personal to me. Yes, my view is simple that we need to get rid of public education altogether and getting the federal government out of education is a good start. It's an argument I can defend intelligently if we can leave personal experiences out of it and quit making bogey-men out of anyone who disagrees with you.

I didn't make a bogey-man out of anyone who disagrees with me. What's even more peculiar, if you bothered to investigate my opinion at all, is that on many fronts, I probably agree with you.

I didn't call you a political hack because of your opinion or because of your beliefs. I called you a political hack because of your methods. But I can understand why you would have trouble distinguishing between the two.

[pam]

Head start is not all about education. It is about development. That's why it was transferred to the Department of Health and Human Services in 1969.

Edited March 17, 2011 by pam

[Gwen]

i think head start can be a great program for kids, especially when (for whatever reason) the parents are not able to properly prepare them for school. there is more a kid needs before school starts than to be able to say letters and write a name.

as for the objections to the "political indoctrination" that goes on in head start that is everywhere. my kids never went to head start and they came home from school talking about global warming and such. yes it's going to be taught.

are ppl really so afraid of what their kids might learn? i just don't stress that so much. i don't think there is anything that can be taught in a few min at school that if i disagree i can't correct. i worry more about what the kids do, if they are being bullied and what not.

[MarginOfError]

Head start is not so much about education. It is about development. That's why it was transferred to the Department of Health and Human Services in 1969.

Also, and essential to understanding Head Start, it was developed to try and minimize the gap between poverty and upper and middle class. Studies were showing that children with parents who could afford pre-school were much more likely to succeed in their education than children whose parents could not afford it. Head Start received federal funding and accepted children from low-income families to teach those kids the same things that kids were learning in pre-school.

Like any decent pre-school, a decent Head Start program won't focus on educational goals so much as giving kids skills and abilities that will help them succeed in education. That includes social and physical skills as well.

But going after Head Start is a little bit silly. Head Start focuses on teaching the skills kids need to succeed in school. If you don't like what Head Start is teaching, that's probably a reflection of the schools that the kids will be going to, not on the Head Start program.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I didn't make a bogey-man out of anyone who disagrees with me. What's even more peculiar, if you bothered to investigate my opinion at all, is that on many fronts, I probably agree with you.

I didn't call you a political hack because of your opinion or because of your beliefs. I called you a political hack because of your methods. But I can understand why you would have trouble distinguishing between the two.

I understand that you and Pam have a different perspective on this thing and I can respect that. What I don't understand or appreciate is the supercilious tone in your posts to me, not the least of which is this latest comment. I am not a stupid man. My military GT scores have put me in the top 5%. However, I digress the argument because it appears you can't restrain yourself from snide comments. Perhaps you should revisit how your personal experiences have debilitated you from discussing this issue in a rational manner.

[MarginOfError]

as for the objections to the "political indoctrination" that goes on in head start that is everywhere. my kids never went to head start and they came home from school talking about global warming and such. yes it's going to be taught.

It's also worthwhile to note that things like global warming are scientific reality. Whether or not it's man-made, or whether or not we can do anything about it are more difficult questions that science hasn't clearly answered yet.

So if my kid comes home and says, "the ocean's average temperature is rising and that's called global warming." I'm not going to be concerned. If my kid comes home and says, "global warming is caused by people's refusal to live in mud huts and give up electricity," well now we're going to have a little talk.