Entry Into The Celestial Kingdom

[pushka]

If Tommy died at this moment, he would be judged by what he accepts and what he is willing to accept at this moment, so if he is not willing to accept the idea that he needs to be baptized, or baptized again, by someone with the actual authority to baptize him, or if he is not willing to accept the idea that he needs to receive faith or an assurance from God assuring him of the truth on this issue (and he can actually receive that faith or assurance from God at this moment), then after arriving in the spirit world he would later learn that he was wrong, and that he truly did need to be baptized, or baptized again, by someone who did have the authority to baptize him, while also learning that he should have sought for faith or an assurance from God to help him know this truth, as well as any and all other truths, but finding himself classed among others who had heard the gospel truth but rejected it in their mortal lives, instead accepting ideas from people (other than God) who taught or tried to teach what they believed was true but really wasn’t, not being found worthy of the celestial kingdom or the laws of the celestial kingdom because he had neither been baptized by someone with authority to baptize him nor received and relied upon faith (or an assurance) from God assuring him of this truth when he actually could have received that faith (or assurance) from God.

Or in other words, people who hear the gospel in this world and do not accept what they hear, after hearing an actual truth, will be judged as people who were not willing to accept that truth, and instead were only willing to accept what Satan or people in this world taught them in their teachings which were not inspired or authorized by God, having chosen not to accept a truth they could have known to be true by simply seeking faith (or an assurance) from God.

Or in other words, nobody can reject the gospel here in this world and then, upon finding themselves in spirit form in the spirit world, find out the gospel is true after all and then seek to have other people perform the ordinances they need and could have performed for themselves so they can then go to the Celestial kingdom, because it just doesn’t work that way. And if you don’t believe me, believe the words of our Lord, as recorded in D&C section 76.

Ray, thanks for your reply. I think I understand your position regarding those people who outright reject either the LDS version of The Gospel (According to yourself and other LDS), or the general Christian version of The Gospel, as preached by the majority of other Christian denominations. They will not receive a 2nd chance of hearing the Gospel and accepting it after they have died.

However, in the examples I mentioned, I was presuming that Prison Chaplain and other people who are investigating the LDS church at the time of their death will have been praying for an assurance from God/Holy Spirit as to the truth of the LDS church's beliefs, however will not have had the time to make their mind up, and be baptised or not. Are they to be treated the same as those people who just outright rejected Christ and The Gospel?

[Ray]

Heh, I thought I covered that by saying he will be judged by what he has received and by what he was willing to receive, with the understanding that our Lord will spew the “lukewarm” out of his mouth.

Or in other words, we all have 3 choices:

Believe God and those God has inspired to deliver His message(s), knowing God has inspired them through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Believe Satan and those who Satan has inspired to deliver his message(s), believing the words of God were and are NOT inspired by God.

Believe nothing, because you haven’t made up your mind, which is to NOT believe God or those God has inspired.

It’s very simple really. And the solution is also simple. Get an answer and get it from God… RIGHT NOW!!!

[pushka]

Thank you Ray. I recall PC mentioning that he understands your zealouslness when delivering your opinions on this board, and your need to give everybody the opportunity to hear/pray about/accept the beliefs that you 'believe'/'know' are true, to you at least.

I fear that your message to me, and perhaps to some others is start to read the BOM and other LDS scripture, pray immediately about the truthfulness of them and the Church, and get Baptised as quickly as possible just in case you are killed before you get the chance...even though you may feel that you haven't investigated the Church fully enough to come to a true belief/unbelief...what you call 'lukewarm'.

I consider that to be a little too much pressure on a person, to be honest.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Believe nothing, because you haven’t made up your mind, which is to NOT believe God or those God has inspired.

As a missionary, I was careful not to "give up" on people who rejected the message or just didn't listen. I went forth with the voice of warning, but I wasn't privy to the communications between them and God. Thus, I couldn't say if they'd "had their chance" because I didn't know if God did or didn't tell them our message was true. The same thing applies here, I think. We don't know what God has or hasn't told someone yet. Instead of drawing a line in the sand, let's erase the lines that divide us.

[Ray]

FYI, the idea that you or anybody else needs to read ALL of God’s scriptures while investigating ALL the secular sources of information you or anyone else can dig up on God, or His Church, or any church that claims to be the true church of God, before you can know the truth, is an idea that does not come from God.

Or in other words, all this procrastinating you are doing, and that other people are doing, is simply a big waste of your time, because all you really need to know that something is really true is an assurance you can get from God now, meaning you don’t have to wait until you’ve spent your whole life in search of the truth because God can assure you of the truth now… before you spend any more time reading any more of what you can read in some books or other sources of information from anybody, including those who claim to be speaking for God.

And btw, I was once a member of another church, which claimed to be the true church of Christ, and my relationship with God then was good. And the only reason I didn’t accept these other truths that I’ve now found in this Church is because I didn’t know they were “out there” to begin with.

Or in other words, you’ve put yourself in a delicate situation here, pushka, because you are now exposed to these teachings, and your decision about what to do about them is already affecting you, so you can either continue to reject them, or accept them, right now… and to NOT believe them now is to reject them now… and I don’t advise that you do anything without asking God first, and now.

And btw, sorry about the pressure, but you’re a big girl now, and you are already making your decision.

<div class='quotemain'>

Believe nothing, because you haven’t made up your mind, which is to NOT believe God or those God has inspired.

As a missionary, I was careful not to "give up" on people who rejected the message or just didn't listen. I went forth with the voice of warning, but I wasn't privy to the communications between them and God. Thus, I couldn't say if they'd "had their chance" because I didn't know if God did or didn't tell them our message was true. The same thing applies here, I think. We don't know what God has or hasn't told someone yet. Instead of drawing a line in the sand, let's erase the lines that divide us.

The "line" is always there whether anyone acknowledges it or not, and anyone can receive a message from God at any time when they really want to know what is true, so when they don't know the truth, and by their words we can see that, then we can know they haven't really asked God for His answer.

But yes, normally, in the mission field, things are done a bit differently. And those who come here should be ready to hear what they'll hear... because what they do with this information will affect them.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

The "line" is always there whether anyone acknowledges it or not, and anyone can receive a message from God at any time when they really want to know what is true.

I just don't want to go around with a sign that reads, "Read the Book of Mormon and pray about it already...don't waste time talking to me." I'm not saying that's what Ray's doing, but it's pretty close. There is much value to be had by discussing and testifying and fellowshipping. Now Ray, I know you'll respond with a "but all the discussing/testifying/fellowshipping can't take the place of revelation from God," and you're right. Luckily, we don't have to choose between discussing and praying; it's not an either-or situation. We can have both, so let's do so and enjoy it.

[Ray]

Do you realize how many people in the past (Romans, Greeks, Jews, etc)just sat around discussing things, with no other real point to the discussions? If someone wants to know the truth, they can know it right now, and that's all I'm trying to say to those who want to know it... and even if some people don't really want to know it, the ideas they accept, and don't accept, will affect them right now and in the future.

Anyway, I'm out of here now. Too many people talk without really wanting to know what is true, and it distresses me something fiere when I come here.

Heh, but have a nice life, folks. You can do what you want to. And I'll hope that we'll all learn the truth. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Okay. I’d like to add one more thought on this issue before I hang up my hat.

Yeah, I seem to remember you retiring at 3000--16 posts ago. So, how was the long weekend?

I believe the possibility exists that some people who won’t find themselves in the Celestial kingdom will never really know what they missed, and are missing, because they won't believe the Celestial kingdom really exists and they will only get what they were expecting to receive. Or in other words, God may never tell some people about what they missed, and are missing, instead only telling them about what they will and can receive, because God would not want to cause people any pain from knowing they could have received more, when it really wouldn’t do them any good.

Bottom-line: I believe our God is the "full disclosure" type. If there are three heavenly kingdoms, everyone in them will know it.

For instance, those who believe God is totally incorporeal and exists only as a Spirit without a body will live in their idea of heaven in the Telestial kingdom, because they will only receive the ministry of the Holy Spirit and certain angels of God, and maybe not knowing there is anything more.

Now wait a minute! I understood that most people "of sincere religious faith" will enter the Terrestial kingdom. Now you're relegating us to the third level???

And those who believe God is totally incorporeal except for Jesus who has a real body will live in their idea of heaven in the Terrestrial kingdom, because they will only receive the ministry of Jesus and the Holy Spirit and certain other angels who are sent by God to them from heaven.

OK, now I get it. However, I thought entry into these kingdoms was dependent more on merit and sincerity than on dogma.

Do you realize how many people in the past (Romans, Greeks, Jews, etc)just sat around discussing things, with no other real point to the discussions? If someone wants to know the truth, they can know it right now, and that's all I'm trying to say to those who want to know it... and even if some people don't really want to know it, the ideas they accept, and don't accept, will affect them right now and in the future.

Some people looked at how Paul went and entered into those conversations, ultimately winning "a few souls," and they say, "What a waste of time!" Others see the same account and say, "Wow! Now there's a model for engaging the culture, and presenting Christ in an intelligent, worthy manner." I side with the latter.

[Traveler]

Some people looked at how Paul went and entered into those conversations, ultimately winning "a few souls," and they say, "What a waste of time!" Others see the same account and say, "Wow! Now there's a model for engaging the culture, and presenting Christ in an intelligent, worthy manner." I side with the latter.

In defence of Ray - Jesus entered into some interesting discussions with the Scribes and Pharisees and although I believe there were converts among the Scribes and Pharisees - I do not think they came from these discussions. It is quite possible that the main reason for these discussions is for people of faith to recognize the wolfs in our day that come in sheep clothing intending to do harm to those with who they do not agree.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

In defence of Ray - Jesus entered into some interesting discussions with the Scribes and Pharisees and although I believe there were converts among the Scribes and Pharisees - I do not think they came from these discussions. It is quite possible that the main reason for these discussions is for people of faith to recognize the wolfs in our day that come in sheep clothing intending to do harm to those with who they do not agree.

Traveler, in your defense of Ray did you really mean to imply that the non-LDS who come to engage in conversation here are akin to Scribes and Pharisees?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

In defence of Ray -

Why defend Ray? I personally believe his decision to retire is right if he's becoming aggravated here. This is called "LDSTalk.com" not "GoReadTheScriptures.com" If talking about LDS stuff bothers him, that's okay. It's also okay to engage in the rich discussions which PC and Dr. T typically participate in. Since PC is a chaplain, I applaud his desire to make sure he understands LDS doctrine, even if right now he's not sure it's true.

[Ray]

Thank you, Traveler. I'll look forward to meeting you personally. :)

ApostleKnight,

I’m a little surprised that you don’t understand me and that you still think discussions with us will solve anything. And I never suggested that we put our trust in the scriptures, so “GoReadTheScriptures.com” also wouldn’t solve anything.

But if there was a website that suggested that people seek their answers directly from God, called “SeekYourAnswersDirectlyFromGod.com” or whatever, I would be more than happy to refer all people to that website, rather than a website where people simply share what they believe.

… and it’s not because I have some kind of problem sharing what I believe with other people, but because I know what I know, in knowing that the only way for anyone else to know the truth is by seeking their own answers from God.

And btw, I simply came to pick up my hat and to see who might possibly miss me, and for those who will, as I’ll miss some who came here, I’ll look forward to meeting you personally.

Bye now.

[miztrniceguy]

Thank you, Traveler. I'll look forward to meeting you personally. :)

ApostleKnight,

I’m a little surprised that you don’t understand me and that you still think discussions with us will solve anything. And I never suggested that we put our trust in the scriptures, so “GoReadTheScriptures.com” also wouldn’t solve anything.

But if there was a website that suggested that people seek their answers directly from God, called “SeekYourAnswersDirectlyFromGod.com” or whatever, I would be more than happy to refer all people to that website, rather than a website where people simply share what they believe.

… and it’s not because I have some kind of problem sharing what I believe with other people, but because I know what I know, in knowing that the only way for anyone else to know the truth is by seeking their own answers from God.

And btw, I simply came to pick up my hat and to see who might possibly miss me, and for those who will, as I’ll miss some who came here, I’ll look forward to meeting you personally.

Bye now.

altho i've only been here a few weeks, i've found some of Ray's posts good reading, and informative.

hate to see ya go, Ray

[Guest ApostleKnight]

… and it’s not because I have some kind of problem sharing what I believe with other people, but because I know what I know, in knowing that the only way for anyone else to know the truth is by seeking their own answers from God.

I think we've all agreed on that at this point. At times there were what I considered to be positive, useful posts by you. It's because this board seems to be causing you such frustration that I think you'd be happier leaving it. Not that I think you should go, or that there's no place for you here. I'm simply not going to try to convince you to continue an activity which is not a positive experience for you. Good luck with life bro.

[Ray]

Heh, how come you still don’t get it?

It’s not the board that is frustrating me, ApostleKnight, but the fact that some people won’t seek to know the truth from God, even when it’s placed right in front of their face.

O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside supposing they know of themselves…

… But the things of the wise and the prudent shall be hid from them forever—yea, that happiness which is prepared for the saints. 2 Nephi 9:28 & 43

For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom ; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have. – 2 Nephi 28:30

Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost. – 2 Nephi 28:31

And btw, I’m saying all of this from a long way off, as I keep walking away from the darkness, and as I walk and continue to walk toward light from God, I bid those who aren't following "goodbye".

[Maureen]

Heh, how come you still don’t get it?

It’s not the board that is frustrating me, ApostleKnight, but the fact that some people won’t seek to know the truth from God, even when it’s placed right in front of their face.

And who is to make that judgement on those alleged people won’t seek to know the truth from God. At least God is patient and that's all that really matters.

M.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

And btw, I’m saying all of this from a long way off, as I keep walking away from the darkness, and as I walk and continue to walk toward light from God, I bid those who aren't following "goodbye".

Goodbye, enjoy your pursuits.

[prisonchaplain]

Heh, how come you still don’t get it?

It’s not the board that is frustrating me, ApostleKnight, but the fact that some people won’t seek to know the truth from God, even when it’s placed right in front of their face.

And btw, I’m saying all of this from a long way off, as I keep walking away from the darkness, and as I walk and continue to walk toward light from God, I bid those who aren't following "goodbye".

I just find it ironic that more than a dozen posts in this string about getting into the Celestial Kingdom have focused on Ray's leaving.

[miztrniceguy]

<div class='quotemain'>

Heh, how come you still don’t get it?

It’s not the board that is frustrating me, ApostleKnight, but the fact that some people won’t seek to know the truth from God, even when it’s placed right in front of their face.

And btw, I’m saying all of this from a long way off, as I keep walking away from the darkness, and as I walk and continue to walk toward light from God, I bid those who aren't following "goodbye".

I just find it ironic that more than a dozen posts in this string about getting into the Celestial Kingdom have focused on Ray's leaving.

maybe there should be a "goodbye, good luck ray" thread

[mdb]

Were you baptized by one with the priesthood keys authorized and bestowed by Jesus?, were the men who laid hands on you to bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost holders of the Priesthood authorized and bestowed by Jesus? Have you and your wife received your Endowments? Are you sealed to your wife and children for Time and All Eternity? When you received your Endowments and were sealed was it in one of Our Lords Dedicated Temples, and the work performed by a priesthood holder? If so, then yes, as long as you and your wife live up to your covenants with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, until you pass from this mortal world into the Spirit world, you are good to go. Hopefully to the Celestial Kingdom, if not, then the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms. All three are glorious.

That's a lot of works! I understood that the way into the kingdom of God was by grace alone and not by works - that no one is good enough because all have fallen short of the glory of God. Why do I have to receive endowments through ritual, be given a new name which I can tell no other person and remember a secret hand shake in order to get into heaven? As for my wife, her salvation is equally based on a personal decision she made to follow Christ Jesus and not because she married someone of the same faith.

What about all those people who believed in Jesus for salvation before the Mormon Church was established or any Mormon Temples were built for the endowment cerimonies and marriages to be performed in. Will they not go to heaven? Is Abraham not in heaven? What about Paul?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

That's a lot of works!

Some call it obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

I understood that the way into the kingdom of God was by grace alone and not by works

That's a common error that focusing on select Pauline teachings results in.

Why do I have to receive endowments...

Because we believe God said so, to put it simply. You're not going to find that in the Bible, because LDS believe in continuing revelation/new scripture. I know you don't, but I'm just answering your question (which I suspect was more rhetorical than anything else, but there you go).

What about all those people who believed in Jesus for salvation before the Mormon Church was established or any Mormon Temples were built...

You've never heard of ordinances for the dead? Living proxies perform ordinances for deceased individuals who the have the chance to accept or reject the ordinance as if they'd had the chance on earth. Again, I'm sure you don't believe in it, and frankly I'm surprised you'd never heard it was an LDS belief.

[mdb]

You've never heard of ordinances for the dead? Living proxies perform ordinances for deceased individuals who the have the chance to accept or reject the ordinance as if they'd had the chance on earth. Again, I'm sure you don't believe in it, and frankly I'm surprised you'd never heard it was an LDS belief.

I've heard of it, but this life is the only opportunity you have to accept Jesus Christ for salvation. Paul's salvation was and is not dependent on your good works or the fact that you performed a religious cerimony on his behalf. And Abraham was credited righteousness due to his belief and was "justified" by his works - not saved by them. Good works are evidence of a heart changed by God, fruits of the Spirit, not a way to attain salvation. Eternal life is a free gift through faith and works is the product and a proof of that new life received. The Scriptures say of men that by their fruit they shall be known, but by faith alone and that by the grace of God is a man saved.

It must be stressful and exhausting striving for a gift freely given you. Jesus said, "enter into my rest". His yoke is easy and His burned is light.

[Ray]

maybe there should be a "goodbye, good luck ray" thread

Hey! Yah! I’d like that! I’ll just stick around til it’s finished. :)

I just find it ironic that more than a dozen posts in this string about getting into the Celestial Kingdom have focused on Ray's leaving.

Heh, that was only the side issue, and not the main point, that I shared in all of those posts.

And I hope those thoughts will be some help to you as you read the “primary texts” from God’s prophets.

And who is to make that judgement on those alleged people won’t seek to know the truth from God.

Each one of us who sees the truth can see when others don’t see it, but it’s hard to help those who think they can see and won’t seek the truth from God… and instead only come back with “what about this” ideas to support their own conclusions.

At least God is patient and that's all that really matters.

Yes, I agree, but we all should do what we can to help each other find God, and stop arguing, and then our duty is done.

And btw, for my going away cake, as a present, I’d prefer a COCONUT cake. :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

The Scriptures say of men that by their fruit they shall be known, but by faith alone and that by the grace of God is a man saved.

Nice try. Perhaps you're forgetting Revelations 20:12-15. John saw the dead judged according to their works. Those whose works were "evil" or whatever you want to call it, were cast into the lake of fire. I'm not going to debate what the word "works" here means because I'm confident we won't agree. Suffice it to say that we have to do "things" to have our names in the Book of Life.

It must be stressful and exhausting striving for a gift freely given you.

Yet Jesus said we must keep commandments to enter into eternal life, here, in Matthew 19:17. The sum of the matter, mdb, is this:

We are saved by grace, and we access that grace through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. I cannot save myself, only Christ can. He asks me to demonstrate my faith and commitment, to give up all to follow him, as a token that I take his sacrifice seriously. After all, Jesus taught if we love him we'll keep his commandments, here John 14:15, 21, 23. What good is it to dwell with a Lord we don't love, as demonstrated by a lack of obedience to him?

Most men think Christ's grace allow them to live as they please.

The truly converted know that Christ's grace allows them to live as he pleases.

[shanstress70]

It’s very simple really. And the solution is also simple. Get an answer and get it from God… RIGHT NOW!!!

I have, and it was something to the effect of, "The LDS church is not the true church." Go elsewhere.