The Word of Wisdom and common sense!

[Wingnut]

Indeed, if we were going to make a change to the Word of Wisdom to have the greatest impact on health we'd change it to ban casseroles.

Or at the very least, casseroles that contain any ingredient beginning with "Cream of..."

[Bini]

I'm not sure you do. What I was getting at was that yes it is illegal, but whether that matters to someone enough to make them stop the behavior depends on how they mentally classify the law. Generally speaking we create a hierarchy of laws in our own minds and rate them. I was using seatbelts and speeding as example of laws that people tend to rate rather low on the scale, low enough that violation doesn't particularly bother them or prevent the behavior, particularly if only partaken of occasionally.

I wasn't arguing "Yeah it's illegal, but people don't care about laws like that so that makes it legal" such would be a silly argument.

No, I understood the first time. And I wasn't suggesting what you posted in the latter. But yes, until people are more responsible in their thoughts, way of thinking and actions, not a lot will change.

[Maureen]

Maureen, it sounds like this is something that bothers you a lot, yet I know you're not LDS. I know a lot of your family is, though. Why does it bother you so much?

If I had my druthers I would want the Word of Wisdom thrown out completely and have the members govern themselves when it comes to food and drink. But since at the moment the WofW is alive and functioning in the Mormon community I figure it's easier to try and get it tweaked than totally chucked.

But the main reason I'm concerned with this drug issue is because the Mormon community has this strange fixation with looking at something like tea and coffee as "almost evil" when in fact it is just the opposite. And at the same time can take something like perscription drugs and treat them with little concern or respect. I really don't want to generalize because I only started this thread by reading one person's confession. I guess I just see it as a little hypocritical to require members to follow these prohibition rules about substances that are in fact healthy for you, while hardly mentioning or being concerned with safety when it comes to substances that can be very harmful. Missionaries typically when teaching the WofW don't really advise about prescription drug abuse, possibly because it's just common sense. I'm just finding the WofW to be very backwards at the moment.

M.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Maureen
adding more

[Wingnut]

But the main reason I'm concerned with this drug issue is because the Mormon community has this strange fixation with looking at something like tea and coffee as "almost evil" when in fact it is just the opposite.

Your entire response makes sense, and I appreciate that you didn't take offense at my question, since I didn't mean any in asking it. I want to respond to this part, though. I know there are some health benefits to tea, and that coffee (or rather the caffeine in it) can help with a few things, but it's not enough to make me want to throw the whole thing out the window.

I very much agree that LDS tend to overreact and fixate on a lot of things. For example, how many women come to this site, just having learned that their husband views pornography, and are ready to divorce him over it? Please note that I'm not saying or implying that pornography isn't a bad thing. These men are terrified to tell their wives and seek their help because they (the men) are afraid they (the wives) will overreact to a weakness and leave him completely. We're taught that pornography is a great evil, and it is, but it is not the greatest of sins, and usually it starts as a weakness instead of a deliberate act. Women -- understandably -- take it personally, and think it's all about them, and how wronged they've been. They often hold it over their husband's head in the future. Why? Because they can't see past it. They fixate, and it consumes them completely.

[beefche]

How is it backwards? Because it doesn't list every single item we can or cannot consume? That's what I don't understand.

I truly do not understand why people (LDS or not) have such issues with the WoW. There are various talks from GAs about the good and bad of WoW. Other than a few no-no's, most things are left up to the individual. Does that mean some members go overboard and condemn anyone who sniffs coffee? Of course, but you have those whackos in any organization.

[Backroads]

How about drug interaction? Proper dosing based on age and weight? It's irresponsible without proper education, except in emergent situations.

On a different thread, one poster commented about how her and her family share perscription medicines. She knows they shouldn't but they still do it. Excuse me, what part of irresponsible does this fall under? The word of wisdom needs a serious revision because it makes no sense in this day and age when there are so many drugs out there that are used so irresponsibly without a care, but coffee and tea are looked at as "evil".

I guess I hit a sore spot with that comment, me being the guilty party. It's not like it's a common thing we do daily, but when everyone has the same presciptions, the same dosages, and a general knowledge of how things work, we just shrug our shoulders. The Ambien incident was a one-time thing.

Maybe y'all should relax and let adults take responsibility for themselves.

And yes, I realize sharing them is illegal, but Maureen never bothered to question what happens when we share them, or how often we share them (only in rare situations). For someone who is so concerened about individual choice and responsibility, it's a little strange to be so concerned. People drive at unsafe speeds that have been proven to greatly increase traffic death possibilities and that's illegal.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Backroads

[Dravin]

If I had my druthers I would want the Word of Wisdom thrown out completely and have the members govern themselves when it comes to food and drink. But since at the moment the WofW is alive and functioning in the Mormon community I figure it's easier to try and get it tweaked than totally chucked.

That seems a little strange to me.

Idea 1: I want members to govern themselves, not be told what they should or shouldn't take into their bodies by a piece of scripture.

Idea 2: I want the Word of Wisdom 'tightened' up some to remove loopholes.

They're kinda at odds with each other*. Are you sure what you want isn't members to govern themselves and reach the same conclusions you do or failing that have the Word of Wisdom changed to reach conclusions you agree with? It's okay, we do it all the time, how many people wish people would have a greater understanding of X and really mean they wish people had the same understanding of X as them? But it's not quite the same thing.

* Though wishing that the Word of Wisdom was tightened up for the more self-governmentally deficient works I suppose. Note also this isn't some objective proclamation, just my own musing on how the two ideas get along. It's important to note though that the Word of Wisdom is for the weakest of Saints, or those who can be called Saints. Leaving it kinda like minimum vitamin guidelines in a sense, one can probably benefit from more but a minimum level has been set.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Dravin

[Backroads]

I will go with the idea that it's a good idea to encourage more common sense, though tea and coffee are definitely not considered the ultimate of health food (though I think tea leans much more in that direction). They have health negatives as well as positives.

Then of course there is the idea of "I'm healthy only because I don't drink tea and coffee or smoke, but I can't get myself on a healthy diet if it wouldn't kill me".

I think it's fair to say that very often we are taught things are black/white bad/good without being taught to be more understanding of nuances.

The idea is commandments.

[applepansy]

Yes, I actually mentioned such previously. Of course how much that bothers you depends on how you mentally classify the law, for instance going 5 over the speed limit is illegal but that generally doesn't bother people who do it, particularly if they only do it occasionally. Same with seat-belts, though i'm personally borderline neurotic about seat-belts.

The consequences for sharing prescription drugs is a bit more than a fine.

[applepansy]

It has everything to do with why it is an RX and not an over the counter drug in the first place... Basically the idea is that they can be very dangerous and need someone that has spent time (aka gone to school) and knows what they are doing to see it done safely...

I also has to do with narcotic abuse.

[Dravin]

The consequences for sharing prescription drugs is a bit more than a fine.

The consequences of not wearing a seatbelt can be death. One can even make the argument that the consequence of speeding can be death, though one probably has to go a touch faster than 5 over. The point is something being illegal isn't quite the rhetorical crack of doom some assume.

[Backroads]

The consequences for sharing prescription drugs is a bit more than a fine.

Indeed it is, but at the risk of flaunting irresponsibility, how does one find out about it? Someone would have to come forth and say "so-n-so is sharing my drugs with my approval".

Here's a situation that SHOULD be illegal but apparently is not.

My co-worker's daughter is working on getting full custody of a teenage girl. A few weeks back, during the time of partial custody, the daughter attempts to pick up the girl's prescription. Turns out, after some study and some calls to the birth family, the birth mother picked up the prescription and sold it on the streets.

Turns out it's not illegal in our area because the mother, by signing her name, was able to pick up the prescription.

[applepansy]

The consequences of not wearing a seatbelt can be death. One can even make the argument that the consequence of speeding can be death, though one probably has to go a touch faster than 5 over. The point is something being illegal isn't quite the rhetorical crack of doom some assume.

the consequences of taking a prescription you're not allowed to take can be death also.

No people aren't going to change your mind. I understand your point. Those that aren't changing their mind do not understand the legal consequences. Jail time just isn't worth it to me.

[applepansy]

Indeed it is, but at the risk of flaunting irresponsibility, how does one find out about it? Someone would have to come forth and say "so-n-so is sharing my drugs with my approval".

Here's a situation that SHOULD be illegal but apparently is not.

My co-worker's daughter is working on getting full custody of a teenage girl. A few weeks back, during the time of partial custody, the daughter attempts to pick up the girl's prescription. Turns out, after some study and some calls to the birth family, the birth mother picked up the prescription and sold it on the streets.

Turns out it's not illegal in our area because the mother, by signing her name, was able to pick up the prescription.

I'm not disagreeing.

I'm pointing out that we shouldn't be appearing to advise breaking the law.

[Dravin]

No people aren't going to change your mind.

They might, but generally speaking the legality of it and the potential for drug interactions dissuades me from personally feeling comfortable with prescription sharing. Though I would probably feel okay if say I had the exact same prescription and I was borrowing a pill or two until I could get a refill. So I suppose ultimately it's not the legal side of things that is the 'issue' for me.

[Wingnut]

I guess I hit a sore spot with that comment, me being the guilty party.

For the record, I had no idea who Maureen was talking about, nor even what thread she's referring to. It wouldn't change my response, though.

[Backroads]

They might, but generally speaking the legality of it and the potential for drug interactions dissuades me from personally feeling comfortable with prescription sharing. Though I would probably feel okay if say I had the exact same prescription and I was borrowing a pill or two until I could get a refill. So I suppose ultimately it's not the legal side of things that is the 'issue' for me.

People aren't very interested in obeying the law if they don't personally believe in it. There is a big difference between constantly sharing drugs and occassionally borrowing of the same prescription and dosages or understanding the consequences. It's hard to blame individual things when even the person for which it was prescribed has a bad reaction.

[Backroads]

For the record, I had no idea who Maureen was talking about, nor even what thread she's referring to. It wouldn't change my response, though.

And it shouldn't. You have great points.

It's just hard for me to argue too much with necessity, knowledge, rare instances, and the fact that prescription drugs have too many negatives for even their intended patients.

[Maureen]

That seems a little strange to me.

Idea 1: I want members to govern themselves, not be told what they should or shouldn't take into their bodies by a piece of scripture.

Idea 2: I want the Word of Wisdom 'tightened' up some to remove loopholes.

I don't believe that is what I'm saying.

I'm saying if the WofW can't be thrown out, done away with, the next best thing is to change it. And by changing it to force people (commandment) to use some logic, use common sense before making reckless choices, or to think before they act, then I believe it is opening things up and not tightening them. The Mormon people seem to be very accepting of commandments. Instead of commanding people to not consume something specific, make it a commandment to get people to think twice about what they might be consuming and why. It's not a realistic commandment, it can't be measured, unless you keep a diary of how many times a day you thought carefully about what you've eaten or drank.

In other words, why bother telling people what they can eat or drink, something is going to be left out or overlooked. If people want to be responsible for their own consumptions, then make it for everything - perscription medicine, coffee and tea.

M.

[Backroads]

I don't believe that is what I'm saying.

In other words, why bother telling people what they can eat or drink, something is going to be left out or overlooked. If people want to be responsible for their own consumptions, then make it for everything - perscription medicine, coffee and tea.

It would certainly get people thinking!

[Dravin]

. And by changing it to force people (commandment) to use some logic, use common sense before making reckless choices, or to think before they act, then I believe it is opening things up and not tightening them.

Except if the Word of Wisdom was amended to say, "Don't share prescriptions" by and large there wouldn't be logic involved in the decision to not share them. I know my decision to forgo alcohol is not a logical one*.

As far as having it say "use common sense!" the Word of Wisdom already contains principles upon which one should act upon beyond the straight commandments involved. I've already linked to talks expounding the princples to cover prescription drug abuse, and illegal drugs are often mentioned, neither of which are actually mentioned in the text of D&C 89. Inserting "use common sense" wouldn't particularly resolve anything, already people understand that there are principles involved beyond the text itself. Also, I wonder if you realize that the line of thinking that concludes Pepsi is evil is a direct result of what you are lamenting a lack of. That is people taking principles they see within the text and using them as guides to govern themselves.

* Well, there is a logic involved. God told me not to. I trust him. Therefore I won't. But I'm fairly sure that's not what you are talking about.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Dravin

[Maureen]

..Also, I wonder if you realize that the line of thinking that concludes Pepsi is evil is a direct result of what you are lamenting a lack of...

I really don't know what you're trying to say here.

But like I said before, I don't require the WofW to change to be more specific in its prohibitions; I'm saying if people do want to have the responsibility themselves in what they consume, then let them have that responsibility for everything. If Mormons see the human body as a temple, then by logic, love for God and themselves, they will treat it as such, without having to be persuaded into doing so.

M.

[Dravin]

I really don't know what you're trying to say here.

I'm saying you are complaining that LDS don't apply the principle that one should take care of their body and only rely on the strict wording on the Word of Wisdom in the face of evidence to the contrary. Could they do it better? Probably, but they do it.

But like I said before, I don't require the WofW to change to be more specific in its prohibitions; I'm saying if people do want to have the responsibility themselves in what they consume, then let them have that responsibility for everything. If Mormons see the human body as a temple, then by logic, love for God and themselves, they will treat it as such, without having to be persuaded into doing so.

M.

Do you conclude that tea is something to be avoided by anyone believing their body is a temple and to be taken care of?

If not then the Word of Wisdom is necessary for some things if the Lord wants us to conclude that we shouldn't be drinking tea, alcohol or coffee. Seriously, there are studies suggesting that small amounts of alcohol are healthful, and the craze these days is how drinking tea is healthy.

[Backroads]

Do you conclude that tea is something to be avoided by anyone believing their body is a temple and to be taken care of?

If not then the Word of Wisdom is necessary for some things if the Lord wants us to conclude that we shouldn't be drinking tea, alcohol or coffee. Seriously, there are studies suggesting that small amounts of alcohol are healthful, and the craze these days is how drinking tea is healthy.

I for one would happily drink tea if I could because of the reported health benefits. Health logic would decree I would. But if the Lord doesn't want me drinking it...logic won't help.

[Maureen]

I'm saying you are complaining that LDS don't apply the principle that one should take care of their body and only rely on the strict wording on the Word of Wisdom in the face of evidence to the contrary....

Yes, that is somewhat how I see it.

Do you conclude that tea is something to be avoided by anyone believing their body is a temple and to be taken care of?

If not then the Word of Wisdom is necessary for some things if the Lord wants us to conclude that we shouldn't be drinking tea, alcohol or coffee. Seriously, there are studies suggesting that small amounts of alcohol are healthful, and the craze these days is how drinking tea is healthy.

I see the body as a temple that should be taken care of. I also see coffee, tea and alcohol as having health benefits taken in moderation. And I also see the benefits of taking prescription drugs when prescribed by a doctor.

M.