The Word of Wisdom and common sense!

[Dravin]

Okay, what does it mean?

M.

It means it's revelation. I'm unsure what point you are trying to belabor as for my purposes in this thread, health benefit, social engineering against addiction, or making us peculiar it doesn't change things.

Tell me Maureen, what interpretation do you come up with it that I shouldn't be grateful for the revelation?

Really,

1. Science tells me I don't need to bother staying away from something and possibly should seek it out.

2. God told me I should stay away from that something.

3. I'm glad God told me because if left to science I wouldn't be staying away.

This is a mind boggling concept?

Edited March 31, 2011 by Dravin

[Family_Man]

I am allergic to codeine and ALL of it's derivatives- so finding pain meds is really hard. If three Aleve won't work, then after 4.5 hours I take half a Vicodin- if the pain hasn't eased up or gone away in 1 hour, I take the other half.

Vicodin (or hydrocodone) is a semi synthetic opiate derivative of codeine.

As for coffee being healthy for you, there are conflicting studies. According to many studies, Coffe increases homeocysteine levels. Homeocysteine has been directly linked to heart disease, as well as increase chance of bone breaking (not due to bone weakening like osteoperosis, but rather having to do with degraded collagen)

So while many studies say "Look at these antioxidants. Surely they must be healthy, therefore Coffee is healthy for you" other studies say "Look at these compunds in Coffee, they are linked to these risk factors, therefore Coffee is bad for you"

I could go on but I think my point is obvious. But just to be safe, I will go for a concise sumation; Whatever you look for, you will find. If you look for studies showing health bennefits of Coffee, you will find them. If you look for studies showing harmful effects of Coffee, you will find it.

[Maureen]

You: The Word of Wisdom wasn't strictly adhered to...

Me: No it wasn't.

Disagreement would have been "Yes it was."

LOL, let's look at all of it.

Me: Dravin, you don't give the human mind much credit. And I'm positive that the WofW was not strictly adhered to when it was first given or even decades later - strict adherence to the WofW didn't happen until 1921.

You: No it wasn't. It was initially counsel that was decided upon by the Church to adhere to. I'm not entirely sure of the pertinence there, the counsel contained in the Word of Wisdom was valid long before it was adopted as binding.

I think you could have been more clear. :) But if you prefer being brief, a correct agreement would have been, "Yes, it wasn't." :)

You mean like we know from science that people don't die and come back to life three days later? That you can't simply command someone back to life? That you can't walk on liquid water? That there is no evidence that Jesus Christ was the Son of God?

Science definitely doesn't prove these events, but that doesn't negate the possibilities. We all have the choice to exercise faith. The more supernatural the event, the more faith is required. I don't see anything supernatural about coffee, tea or alcohol. Science can definitely show me the good and bad about these substances and I can choose to make an educated decision about consuming them.

Tell me Maureen, if you believed God told you that tea is not good for your body would you be arguing the point with him? Maybe point out that scientific evidence disagrees with him and he might want to reconsider his position? Tell him what he's saying just isn't true and he should use some common sense? Is faith such a foreign concept to you?

So far, God has not told me that tea is not good for my body, in fact he has told me just the opposite.

That said if we are to avoid them (coffee, tea, and alcohol) because of some unknown to science health consequence, because the Lord create a commandment for the weakest of Saints deciding that having everyone abstain to protect those inclined towards addiction (you have a problem with that I suppose you can take that up with Paul [ 1 Cor 8]), or if it was to make us a peculiar people the Lord does not want us (LDS) consuming them. Is the concept of being grateful for revelation received such a foreign concept? Are not mainstream Christians grateful for the revelations contained in the Bible? Does being such mean you want a detailed list of everything you should and should not believe? That you want, let's say Revelation changed to include a bit about how you shouldn't believe in Bigfoot and a run down of every future tabloid headline?

Actually, I believe just the opposite. I believe God is reasonable and not one to play games for the sake of playing games. God gave all mankind the ability to make reasonable decisions. Mankind has gone through periods of superstition, setting aside reason, and it doesn't prove well. What's wrong with reason, why does living life to the best of our ability mean we can't trust ourselves. Many people describe religion as a crutch. I wonder why? Could it be because religious people tend to give off that fanatical vibe, religious people for some reason are not considered reasonable. I believe in God, I have faith in God, but I also see God's goodness and logic in his creation. He created us and gave us everything we need. Why would he do that and then make it so difficult for us to live life. Why would we need to jump through hoops? Why bother with free agency if you're afraid to do anything without God's say so. I understand the choice to believe in a prophet and revelation, but I also understand that blue is blue and 2 + 2 = 4 and if someone tries to tell me that's not so in the name of God, I will choose to watch from a distance.

M.

[Maureen]

It means it's revelation. I'm unsure what point you are trying to belabor as for my purposes in this thread, health benefit, social engineering against addiction, or making us peculiar it doesn't change things.

Tell me Maureen, what interpretation do you come up with it that I shouldn't be grateful for the revelation?

Really,

1. Science tells me I don't need to bother staying away from something and possibly should seek it out.

2. God told me I should stay away from that something.

3. I'm glad God told me because if left to science I wouldn't be staying away.

This is a mind boggling concept?

I have no idea what you are talking about here Dravin.

M.

[Dravin]

I don't see anything supernatural about coffee, tea or alcohol.

I don't either, I do however see something supernatural about revelation.

So far, God has not told me that tea is not good for my body, in fact he has told me just the opposite.

Which is not answering the question asked. I'm assuming you are familiar with the concept of a hypothetical.

Actually, I believe just the opposite.

Wait, you are thankful for revelation but don't feel a need to have every possible belief spelled out to you through it? If so, why is this a foreign concept when the same sentiment is expressed by myself? Or were you saying you aren't grateful for revelation? I don't suspect so but it's not abundantly clear.

[Dravin]

I have no idea what you are talking about here Dravin.

M.

That's obvious as it's been the point of my posts to you since post #55. You took a statement that I'm grateful for the revelation contained in the Word of Wisdom that wouldn't be contained in a generic "Be healthy" and insinuated I was desiring/required to have a complete list of every food I should and shouldn't eat placed before me. You seemed to be having a hard time conceptually with the idea:

1) Why I'm grateful.

2) That while grateful I do not desire nor require a complete list of every acceptable foodstuff (which really to be foolproof would have to tell me how often to eat them and in what amounts).

Edited March 31, 2011 by Dravin

[Maureen]

...Wait, you are thankful for revelation but don't feel a need to have every possible belief spelled out to you through it? If so, why is this a foreign concept when the same sentiment is expressed by myself? Or were you saying you aren't grateful for revelation? I don't suspect so but it's not abundantly clear.

I don't think I've said anything about revelation except that I understand the choice to believe in revelation. Are we on some sort of alternate universe conversation here?

M.

[Elphaba]

Same with prescription drugs, a person who has a prescription of oxycodone can enter the temple tweeked out of their mind, but the dude who drank a glass of iced tea at lunch is evil.

Not that this is proof of anything, but I have known two people who took pain medication as prescribed by a pain clinic who were both told by their respective bishops to stop or they would not be given a temple recommend. I only know what happened to one of them beyond that. She stopped taking the pain meds for a while but was in constant agony, and finally started taking them again. A subsequent bishop imposed no restrictions on her.

My point is, I don't think it's a given that a bishop will allow someone to take addictive drugs, even when properly prescribed, regardless of what they are.

Elphaba

[Maureen]

That's obvious as it's been the point of my posts to you since post #55. You took a statement that I'm grateful for the revelation contained in the Word of Wisdom that wouldn't be contained in a generic "Be healthy" and insinuated I was desiring/required to have a complete list of every food I should and shouldn't eat placed before me. You seemed to be having a hard time conceptually with the idea:

1) Why I'm grateful.

2) That while grateful I do not desire nor require a complete list of every acceptable foodstuff (which really to be foolproof would have to tell me how often to eat them and in what amounts).

Not at all, I've totally forgotten about post #55 and didn't realize we were talking about that all this time. I'm sure you are grateful and I've accepted very well that you don't need a complete list. I was actually responding to the posts that came after. From what I've gathered you didn't like my question about what does D&C 89:4 mean, or am I mistaken?

M.

[Dravin]

Not at all, I've totally forgotten about post #55 and didn't realize we were talking about that all this time. I'm sure you are grateful and I've accepted very well that you don't need a complete list. I was actually responding to the posts that came after. From what I've gathered you didn't like my question about what does D&C 89:4 mean, or am I mistaken?

M.

Because I thought we were discussing about being grateful and not needing some exhaustive list, I'm sure you can see how it's not particularly pertinent to that subject.

My take is because of the designs of those in the future the Lord is giving us a heads up advice/counsel/commandment/whatever you want to call it to counteract the influence.

Now what's the influence?

1) Addiction due to advertising pressure? It's not like Budweiser cares if generations of LDS become alcoholic, they just want our money and will advertise the product as much as they can. Thing is addiction to the substances listed, even heavy caffeine use has health consequences.

2) Any amount of the product has hidden danger but advertising will encourage partaking way more than is good. Similar to #1 but there is no need for addiction.

3) Those interested only in money will advertise the products and the saints will homogenize. To prevent this the Lord is advising us not to use, body or belly, the mentioned items as it sets us apart.

4) A combination of 1, 2 and 3.

Dunno honestly, I just know that the Lord had reason to tell me to not partake of those substances and that health is involved somewhere (which tends to work against a #3 interpretation though it could be an influence of wanting abstination not just moderation). Why health? Because it's taught as the Lord's Law of Health and in my mind the verbiage of not for body or belly suggest to me it being bad for the body and belly in some way. Of course my perspective is influenced by culture and official lessons and the like. To be perfectly honest though the health section could be intended to mostly be referring to the... nutritional section for lack of a better term. This is one reason I'm rather quick to point out it hasn't been revealed to the church why the Word of Wisdom's prohibitions are in place when someone decides to go on a caffeine crusade.

Now why have I not sat down and prayed to know specifically why? Because its never bothered me, I have a testimony of the Word of Wisdom and don't really feel a need to break it down into constituent components in prayer and it's not like knowing means I can then sneak me some coffee or something. Generally it's the commandments or policies you have a problem with for what ever reason that send you to your knees. I suspect if you ever converted you'd have some calluses on your knees over the Word of Wisdom.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Dravin

[RipplecutBuddha]

Just a few gentle reminders

We believe that the WoW came from God himself. For my part, when He sees the need to 'update' it, I'm sure he'll do so.

Wanting to remove coffee and tea (neither of which are mentioned specifically in the WoW) yet add all sorts of other things seems to me as being a whole lot of effort to no end. Coffee and Tea are part of the WoW because of the phrase "hot drinks" which at the time were only coffee and tea. Alcohol was mentioned specifically, btw.

Now back to the issue of wanting to 'update' the WoW. We do believe in continuing revelation, and because of that, there's every chance you're right and that an update is coming. However, due to recent comments given by the Apostles in general conference, I think the updates are already being spread around.

'Mr. Monson' is not empowered to unilaterally alter basic LDS doctrines according to his will or whim, nor has any prophet of the LDS church been so empowered. The LDS church is not President Monson's church, but "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. He is the one in charge, not the prophet.

Remember the lecture Jesus gave the Pharisees and Saducees regarding divorce in his day. Just because something is culturally popular does not mean that it should be accepted as correct by God. God is the source of truth, not mankind. We need to remain humble and realize that we don't see everything as God sees it.

[Iggy]

Vicodin (or hydrocodone) is a semi synthetic opiate derivative of codeine.

Amazing- I was given this in the hospital after my gall bladder surgery before I left. I don't get the swollen throat & nasal passages that codeine and most of it's derivatives do to me. Yes, the hospital & ALL of my Dr's are well aware of my allergies. Edited March 31, 2011 by Iggy
to fix the quote

[Lost_one]

I have always taken the word of wisdom as a starting point, rather than the be all and end all. To me it is about respecting the body that Heavenly Father gave us and not purely about tea, coffee, tobacco and alcohol. Soda pop is very bad for our tummies and teeth. I still drink it, as I am kinda addicted to it, But really want to give it up. Same goes for certain snack foods.

[Backroads]

Coffee and tea aren't bad because of the caffeine... Coffee and Tea are bad because God said No. No other reason needs to be given. It makes it a matter of faith. Those who believe will try their best those that don't will not.

Precisely! If the WoW was entirely about health and nothing else, many more arguments could be made about what it should and should not include. Is it a health policy? Yes! But it also became commandment. One could present me with all the information in the world about the health benefits of coffee and tea and I could whole-heartedly agree with them on those health benefits. Doesn't change the fact that I am obeying a commandment not to partake of them.

[john doe]

I don't believe that is what I'm saying.

I'm saying if the WofW can't be thrown out, done away with, the next best thing is to change it. And by changing it to force people (commandment) to use some logic, use common sense before making reckless choices, or to think before they act, then I believe it is opening things up and not tightening them. The Mormon people seem to be very accepting of commandments. Instead of commanding people to not consume something specific, make it a commandment to get people to think twice about what they might be consuming and why. It's not a realistic commandment, it can't be measured, unless you keep a diary of how many times a day you thought carefully about what you've eaten or drank.

In other words, why bother telling people what they can eat or drink, something is going to be left out or overlooked. If people want to be responsible for their own consumptions, then make it for everything - perscription medicine, coffee and tea.

M.

I understand that I am quoting post #44, and I don't know if this has been addressed in the intervening pages, but it needs to be answered. The answer is, we do. No, coffee is not allowed now. But sodas, illegal drugs, and prescription drugs, or even OTC drugs for that matter, have been talked about, as have the topics of overeating and taking anything into our bodies to the point where it becomes detrimental to our physical or spiritual health. These things may not be specifically spelled out in the WOW, but we have been given counsel about them numerous times.

[estradling75]

Okay, what does it mean?

M.

It means it is a Revelation. When it was given it has no scientific support what so ever. People were forced to believe it was of God or not. And back then many did what you are doing now, Maureen. Saying, Why should we? What proof is there? It should be toss out and people allowed to do what they think is right...

Now a hundred plus years later the bulk of the Word of Wisdom has scientific backing as correct. After all you are not arguing we should be allowed to drink alcohol or use tobacco. And it has been pointed out how is some cased we fail to live up to the standards in things like RX drugs, and the DOs.

But Maureen you only see the small percentage of the Word of Wisdom that has not yet been proven and you want to discard the whole thing. We see the bulk that has in time been proven and say "Are You Nuts?" We are just waiting to see if and when the scientific proof comes around on Coffee and Tea. Science changes and adapts and learns and grows. Maybe it will here, maybe it will not only time will tell.

[Just_A_Guy]

How 'bout the chapter heading to D&C 89?

Pshaw! No one ever reads those! (Actually, I never had. When they mentioned it on the JS Papers Project, that was the first I'd ever heard about it. )

This too? [re Whitmer's excommunication] The only thing I could find was saying that he was excommunicated as a dissenter.

See, e.g., here (scroll to April 13).

[Wingnut]

Pshaw! No one ever reads those! (Actually, I never had. When they mentioned it on the JS Papers Project, that was the first I'd ever heard about it. )

It was just a guess on my part. I know I'd heard it before, so I thought that would be a good starting point. Turns out it was a lucky whim!

[Maureen]

...One could present me with all the information in the world about the health benefits of coffee and tea and I could whole-heartedly agree with them on those health benefits. Doesn't change the fact that I am obeying a commandment not to partake of them.

I understand that following the WofW is of course a choice but is there a pick and choose available with it? If information was presented to you about the dangers of using prescription medicine not prescribed for you plus the admonition of your leaders to also be careful in regards to these medicines; would that force you into following their advice? I'm trying to get an idea of why certain rules are followed and others are not.

M.

[Maureen]

It means it is a Revelation. When it was given it has no scientific support what so ever. People were forced to believe it was of God or not. And back then many did what you are doing now, Maureen. Saying, Why should we? What proof is there? It should be toss out and people allowed to do what they think is right...

Now a hundred plus years later the bulk of the Word of Wisdom has scientific backing as correct. After all you are not arguing we should be allowed to drink alcohol or use tobacco. And it has been pointed out how is some cased we fail to live up to the standards in things like RX drugs, and the DOs.

But Maureen you only see the small percentage of the Word of Wisdom that has not yet been proven and you want to discard the whole thing. We see the bulk that has in time been proven and say "Are You Nuts?" We are just waiting to see if and when the scientific proof comes around on Coffee and Tea. Science changes and adapts and learns and grows. Maybe it will here, maybe it will not only time will tell.

It is true that of all of the prohibitions the WofW gives, tobacco is definitely the right choice. The WofW and I agree on that one.

M.

[estradling75]

I understand that following the WofW is of course a choice but is there a pick and choose available with it? If information was presented to you about the dangers of using prescription medicine not prescribed for you plus the admonition of your leaders to also be careful in regards to these medicines; would that force you into following their advice? I'm trying to get an idea of why certain rules are followed and others are not.

M.

Because people aren't perfect... People want to have it their way and this leads to people justifying, rationalizing, and ignoring what does not suit them

[Backroads]

I understand that following the WofW is of course a choice but is there a pick and choose available with it? If information was presented to you about the dangers of using prescription medicine not prescribed for you plus the admonition of your leaders to also be careful in regards to these medicines; would that force you into following their advice? I'm trying to get an idea of why certain rules are followed and others are not.

M.

What does this have to do with the Word of Wisdom?

Ultimately it's my choice. I can choose to obey the WofW, or I can choose not to.

EDIT:

I'll try to explain this better.

You might consider what I do picking and choosing. I choose to obey the WoW. To me, it is a commandment.

I see everything else as good advice. I have a brain, free agency, and I can weigh my options.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Backroads

[Maureen]

What does this have to do with the Word of Wisdom?

Ultimately it's my choice. I can choose to obey the WofW, or I can choose not to.

I have already acknowledged that the WofW is a choice, but you said:

Doesn't change the fact that I am obeying a commandment not to partake of them.

...when speaking of coffee and tea.

You've already made the choice to obey that part of the WofW, so I'm wondering, since your leaders have on different occasions spoken to members about other substances that would fall under the WofW prohibitions, then if they too are considered substances that you should not partake of would you obey that commandment? Is it easier to follow some of the prohibitions and more difficult with others? If so, why?

M.

[Backroads]

I have already acknowledged that the WofW is a choice, but you said:

...when speaking of coffee and tea.

You've already made the choice to obey that part of the WofW, so I'm wondering, since your leaders have on different occasions spoken to members about other substances that would fall under the WofW prohibitions, then if they too are considered substances that you should not partake of would you obey that commandment? Is it easier to follow some of the prohibitions and more difficult with others? If so, why?

M.

Perhaps it's the way I look at it. You spoke of the above in bold. To me, those were not commandments, nor presented as commandments. Emphasis on the word "would". If, as the discussion as suggested, items A, B, and X were placed in the official Word of Wisdom by way of inspiration, I would then consider them commandments.

Right now, they don't fall under the prohibitions.

[estradling75]

You've already made the choice to obey that part of the WofW, so I'm wondering, since your leaders have on different occasions spoken to members about other substances that would fall under the WofW prohibitions, then if they too are considered substances that you should not partake of would you obey that commandment? Is it easier to follow some of the prohibitions and more difficult with others? If so, why?

M.

Wait.... Are you seriously asking why different people have difference weakness?