FunkyTown Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Personally I would never again date or marry anyone that lacks the compassion and Christlike ability to forgive. Or lacks an understanding of the repentance process. Even Christ said to the woman "Go and sin no more." That was enough for him.In the words of the immortal Socrates:SICK BURN! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 A person who murders is not on the same level as someone who is sometimes a little too proud.Ah but we can be a little murderous too, only break a little the law of chastity, drink a little wine, gossip a little and yes, be a little proud as well.Joke aside, I understand what you are saying but let's be aware that we cannot predict the future. It is very naive to measure trust based on a temple recommend. You said you would never date someone who broke the law of chastity, who knows...maybe you already did and you just don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Ah but we can be a little murderous too Not sure how we can be a little murderous..either someone is dead or they aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Not sure how we can be a little murderous..either someone is dead or they aren't.lolI know, I was being sarcastic because of the comment of being a "little" proud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 I know. I just found it humorous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Not sure how we can be a little murderous..either someone is dead or they aren't.What about "mostly dead"? Miracle Max can take care of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 What about "mostly dead"? Miracle Max can take care of that. Reminds me when the munchkin coroner comes and pronounces the wicked which dead in The Wizard of Oz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Okay, responses to various things on this thread:The holding of a temple recommend doesn't mean squat when it comes to the value of a person. Now, it's quite possible for a very good person to hold a recommend (as they should), but Joe could lie his way through a temple recommend interview or Susie could be a hop, skip, and a jump from being translated but has no interest in the gospel. Also, people change.True repentence is complete and total to the sinner. God asks that we repent. It was never said that only those who never sin go to the Celestial Kingdom.HOWEVER... it's quite possible, in our imperfect mortal bodies, that the temptation that made us sin in the first place will not leave. Addiction rewires the brain. An alchoholic can go for decades sober, having repented of that sin, go to the temple, leave a worthy life. Does not change the fact that person suffers an alchohol addiction. Is it possible they are just as good a person as someone who is not an alchoholic? You bet! Will those who suffered because of the alcholism still feel the effects in their lives? Quite possible.In that regard, yes, the effects of sin remain and it would be better not to have those effects. But I also am a firm believer that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. I do believe good things can come from unfortunate situations. I believe that sincere repentance and sincere forgiveness can completely heal scars. It does not change the fact there were wounds, but it can heal them.HOWEVER, to say that all sins are the result of brain/body changing addictions simply isn't true. The reason kids are so strongly cautioned about the law of chastity is because sex is a good thing, God intended for us to have sex, etc. etc. Unlike alcohol or murder, which are always bad things, sex isn't. Therefore, the best people can slip up in something that in itself is good but is in the wrong place and time. Yes, breaking the law of chastity is a severe sin as sex is reserved for marriage, but one cannot say "Betty slipped up and broke the law of chastity and therefore is a sex addict who will never ever ever be able of proper, correct, and chaste sexual relations". Therefore, one cannot without a doubt fear that Betty will slip up again, that she is untrustworthy. I have a cousin who had a very bad childhood due to a crazy mother. She shoplifted, did drugs, slept around, etc. She was put in a foster care that was merely a different sort of crazy and ran away. A year ago, we ran into her on facebook. She was married to a wonderful upstanding man, was in college to become a teacher. She was clean and good and pure. She still has the same and now has a child. To say she is not a good person because she has repented isn't fair. She has proven that she could change.I see no reason to think less of someone who has sinned in the past if he/she has sincerely repented. If they have changed, what does it matter? What good does it do to think they will slip up again and constantly live in that fear? This being said, I would still protect myself, but what if there is nothing reasonable to protect myself from?Sin is wrong. We all know that. But sincere repentence does not exist just to get us to the Telestial Kingdom. It exists to make the Celestial kingdom possible. Sincere repentence gives us the opportunity to learn from our mistakes. Now if we have the knowledge and understanding beforehand, so much the better. But mistakes can happen in our imperfect world. None of us has the time or capacity to worry about every single sin others make. There is also the "what if" thing I always wonder about: If someone never gets an opportunity to sin but wants to, does that make them better than someone who has sinned and repented? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 I guess I don't understand the question. Everyone except Christ who is over 8 has sinned, Joseph Smith, Mary the Mother of Jesus, Thomas S. Monson...me...you. everyone. .I don't know if someone already said this (sorry skimmed over the post thus far) ... there are many over the age of 8 that have not sinned. There are many diseases that allow a person to live beyond the age of 8 and not be held accountable for their actions. As far as comparing sin + full repentance versus never sinned, I don't think we will be able to tell the difference 100,000 years from now. If we truly believe our sins can be fully paid for and they can be "as white as snow", then there is no mark or lingering negative effect. If anything there is a refiners fire effect of growth. Like Paul not wanting to get rid of the thorn in the flesh, the process of repentance and humility can catalyze growth. This is why I am surprised to read some people, in other threads, believe God could have never sinned before. To me that is an expression of how ineffective they think the Savior's atonement is in the end. Do we really believe in the Savior's atonement power or not? This is why faith comes before repentance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 As far as comparing sin + full repentance versus never sinned, I don't think we will be able to tell the difference 100,000 years from now. If we truly believe our sins can be fully paid for and they can be "as white as snow", then there is no mark or lingering negative effect. If anything there is a refiners fire effect of growth. Like Paul not wanting to get rid of the thorn in the flesh, the process of repentance and humility can catalyze growth. That is an incredibly interesting thought. So far all that has been noted on this thread is that the effects of sin affect us NOW in this earthly life. When all is said and done and made right, will we really care? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebeliever Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) I see no reason to think less of someone who has sinned in the past if he/she has sincerely repented. If they have changed, what does it matter? What good does it do to think they will slip up again and constantly live in that fear? This being said, I would still protect myself, but what if there is nothing reasonable to protect myself from?But how do you know that they've really changed? I don't think I'd let a person who has been convicted of pedophilia around my children. The difference between pride and murder is the large cost if someone commits it. I might be proud now and lose a friend temporarily, but if I murder someone than I've lost a friend permanently.There is also the "what if" thing I always wonder about: If someone never gets an opportunity to sin but wants to, does that make them better than someone who has sinned and repented?If you murder someone or get pregnant and repent versus only wanting to do it, you still have to deal with the consequences. Edited April 7, 2011 by thebeliever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebeliever Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 lolI know, I was being sarcastic because of the comment of being a "little" proud.So someone is either proud or they aren't? Aren't there levels of pride ? and most people are only proud with certain topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebeliever Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 As far as comparing sin + full repentance versus never sinned, I don't think we will be able to tell the difference 100,000 years from now.The thread is dealing with now in this life, not 100,000 years from now. We all agree with you on this statement.. I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebeliever Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 The Great King David fell from his exaltation because he had sinned. No amount of repentance, regardless of how sincere he was, could make up for that fact. He had lost his exaltation. D&C 132:39 If I sin all my life and repent when I'm older, I would have lost out on all that I could have had. Perhaps I might have prophet or saved many souls? The person who sins and repents is not on the same ground as someone who never sins in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) The person who sins and repents is not on the same ground as someone who never sins in the first place. Since Christ is the only man that has lived on this earth that has NEVER sinned..you are right in that aspect. But thank goodness for the atonement that was made possible to us by Christ that we can be forgiven of the sins we do commit. Edited April 8, 2011 by pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 So someone is either proud or they aren't?YupAren't there levels of pride ?There are many different types of pride: Ego-centric, ethno-centric, anthro-centric, etc. Levels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 The person who sins and repents is not on the same ground as someone who never sins in the first place.And who is that besides Christ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebeliever Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 YupThere are many different types of pride: Ego-centric, ethno-centric, anthro-centric, etc. Levels? I was thinking about people who will yell and scream at you compared to people who someone who will ignore you compared to someone who may firmly believe they are right but still listen. Certainly the reactions different - levels of pride. Maybe you wouldn't call that pride? Then it's just an issue of etymology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebeliever Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Since Christ is the only man that has lived on this earth that has NEVER sinned..you are right in that aspect. But thank goodness for the atonement that was made possible to us by Christ that we can be forgiven of the sins we do commit.Fine. Replace my phrase with a particular sin.The person who lies and repents is worse off than the person who never lies.The person who is unchaste and repents is worse off than the person who is never unchaste.The person who steals and repents is worse off than the person who never steals.The person who murders and repents is worse off than the person who never murders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Fine. Replace my phrase with a particular sin.The person who lies and repents is worse off than the person who never lies.The person who is unchaste and repents is worse off than the person who is never unchaste.The person who steals and repents is worse off than the person who never steals.The person who murders and repents is worse off than the person who never murders. I'm sorry I just disagree. That is the whole concept and precept of forgiveness and the ability to repent. We all make mistakes in our lives. There is not one of us that hasn't sinned. Why have repentance and forgiveness if one would never be considered to be as good as the person who might not have committed that particular sin. That to me just goes against Heavenly Father's plan and the entire reason behind the atonement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebeliever Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 I'm sorry I just disagree. That is the whole concept and precept of forgiveness and the ability to repent. We all make mistakes in our lives. There is not one of us that hasn't sinned. Why have repentance and forgiveness if one would never be considered to be as good as the person who might not have committed that particular sin. That to me just goes against Heavenly Father's plan and the entire reason behind the atonement.I meant to say, in this life they are worse off. In the eternities, it probably doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Sorry I still disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebeliever Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Sorry I still disagree.Fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 It sounds like the brother of the prodigal son who is angry at the fact that his father is welcoming the repentant son back. In his mind, he was better than his brother because he worked very hard during all those years and never wasted his life like his brother did YET, the father knew the prodigal son's heart and forgave him. Let's not forget that the father represents Heavenly Father and the prodigal son is each one of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebeliever Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 It sounds like the brother of the prodigal son who is angry at the fact that his father is welcoming the repentant son back. In his mind, he was better than his brother because he worked very hard during all those years and never wasted his life like his brother did YET, the father knew the prodigal son's heart and forgave him. Let's not forget that the father represents Heavenly Father and the prodigal son is each one of us.Right. The prodigal son got a fantastic party and nothing else, while the son who never left inherited everything that his father had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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