How to improve Education

[Guest]

OK, I may be misunderstanding something here.

We are talking changes that would help education. If I believe how it is delivered is wrong then for me suggest this change would not be what this thread is about.

If so then I am sorry. I do believe that we can not improve on education if we do not change the enviroment of schools and the delivery of the educational basics.

Sports is a part of education. The delivery of Sports is what you are pointing out as a failure. So, you change the way Sports programs are delivered - not get rid of it.

That's the point I was making. So, this thread would be - how to improve the Sports programs to eliminate the "elitist" element instead of "Let's get rid of the Sports programs".

[Guest]

Judo... in addition to what I talked about 2 posts above...

Japan is a different matter. Jobs in Japan is not as sparse as in the Philippines. Yet, students are still excelling in school. This is a product of Japanese culture of discipline. Their parents tell them to go to school, they go to school. Japanese pride sets in - if it's worth doing, it's worth doing well.

So that, in Japan, you can have a class of 60 students to one teacher. Because - discipline is not an issue. One kid gets disruptive, the teacher is the least of his worries - he gets dealt with by the students themselves whose learning he disrupted. Because, Japanese culture is proud of their education and they will not tolerate anybody who messes it up for them.

That's another way to cultivate desire - to change the culture.

But, I don't see it happening in America...

[Guest tbaird22]

Heres what i would change as a senior in high school:

1)Get parents more involved instead of having them think its the school's job.

2)Get teachers on merit pay and off tenure/age-system for teachers. Good teachers get good salaries and keep there jobs. Bad teachers get bad salaries or lose their jobs. I have seen 3 of my favorite teachers lose their jobs because they're young while old lazy teachers keep theirs.

3)Smaller class sizes.

Optional:

1)uniform

2) Separation of boys and girls in classes like math, english, science but integration in classes like art, band, and lunch.

[Guest]

Heres what i would change as a senior in high school:

1)Get parents more involved instead of having them think its the school's job.

2)Get teachers on merit pay and off tenure/age-system for teachers. Good teachers get good salaries and keep there jobs. Bad teachers get bad salaries or lose their jobs. I have seen 3 of my favorite teachers lose their jobs because they're young while old lazy teachers keep theirs.

3)Smaller class sizes.

Optional:

1)uniform

2) Separation of boys and girls in classes like math, english, science but integration in classes like art, band, and lunch.

I like the idea of getting rid of tenure.

Can you explain what the benefit is for gender segregation in core classes? I got in trouble in an all-girl's high school and had to move to a coed one so I haven't experienced fully a gender exclusive classroom.

[Guest tbaird22]

I believe one of the magnet schools here run their classes like that as to create an easier environment for boys and girls to focus on the "hard" classes while allowing them to stay integrated in other classes. apparently it worked really well as far as bringing test scores up and what not.

[Blocky]

Voucher system. Let schools become more efficient for the buck and let parents choose the best fit for their children.

We are in a homeschool program where we are allowed $900 a semester for supplies, curriculum (my choice) or to sign up for classes (karate, art, music, horseback riding, swimming etc). It's been great.

[prisonchaplain]

Are you talking about the education of minors, so-called "higher education", or both?

Education will improve dramatically when, and only when, parents accept the ultimate responsibility for educating their children instead of expecting the state to take care of it for them. Since this is utterly at odds with the teachers' unions, and since the teachers' unions are the most powerful unions in the US at the present time, I don't see this as an easy change.

I'm unclear on your meaning here. If you are suggesting that parents bear the final responsiblity for whether their kids succeed, why would the unions care? Less pressure on the teachers--all the better. On the other hand, if you are suggesting the end of public education, then my guess is that not just the unions, but most Americans would be opposed. The belief that all American children deserve at least a high school education is pretty well established.

[kayne]

I don't agree there is only one effective way of teaching it as well. But, programming is the easiest way to train a student's thinking process to approach a problem computationally. And programming, in its core, is critical thinking. So that, when a child is faced with a problem (be it mathematical or social or otherwise) his first thought process is to understand the problem and break it down into solvable pieces that contribute to a holistic solution that can be applied over and over to similar scenarios - which, essentially, is how programmers have to think.

Yes, I've actually looked into Singapore math although not in-depth. It runs in parallel with Montessori learning except for the Montessori focus of self-actualization and the extreme de-emphasis of rote learning. Singapore math still uses rote learning with the underlying foundation of critical thinking. I can see where Singapore math is superior in timed problem solving as opposed to Montessori. It is better in competitive environments.

i agree programming should be taught even at 1st grade because it is at its core pure logic.

programming basically comes down to....if this happens then this will happen else if this didnt happen then this will happen instead. well programming also uses those if scenarios as well as while scenarios where while this is happening then this will continue to happen. these two logic statements sum up life and programming but many people cant fathom these two basic principles of life and school sure as heck doesnt teach it.

that there sums up programming. it doesnt always stay that simple and unless its a career choice you certainly dont need to know the more crazy aspects of it which are just wilder if this than that and wild this is going on this will continue to happen scenarios

programming can also teach common sense. a programmer has that logic built into his/her brain something a lot of people are lacking these days.

if the class doesnt focus to heavily on the actual coding aspect but the actual logic and design part....teaching programming as early as the 1st grade i think could yield a lot of benefits.

simply because ive studied programming my brain tends to like to logically anaylze things by nature. and while i fail miserably at math programming has at least sharpened my common sense skills something that is currently bleeding to death in the world because as i said programming is pure logic. nothing but logic. if things dont logically add up then the program does crazy stuff.

example logic dictates to get out of debt one must spend less and put more money towards the debt. its basic logic. yet many cant fathom getting out of debt by spending less they spend more the absolute opposite of logic. heck God is logical as well. nothing he does is without some form of logic to it and reason. in fact its illogical to assume there is no God. programming teaching takes this idea of logic should be applied everywhere.

in fact whether i do major in programming or not is irrelevant because at the very least learning about logic and design has sharpened my mind and i think it should be mandatory. the problem is not a lot of people are qualified to teach this and in high school programming teachers are jokes that can do little more than write lines of code and compile stuff and not really tell you the logic behind it

bottom line a common thought process for one that has studied basic programming should be....well if i do this....then what will happen next? most dont think about and thus the problems of the world are explained.

[prisonchaplain]

The public education system needs to be run on by engineers, or at least engineering methodology.

1. Establish a base line.

2. Determine a testable theory to improve education.

3. Implement the theory on a testing level.

4. Measure it.

5. If the test theory shows improvement and a good return on investment, implement it. If not, return to the baseline and try something else.

The current system in public schooling goes like this, instead:

1. Come up with a theory.

2. Fully implement the theory.

3. If the theory doesn't work, come up with an additional theory to tweak the initial.

4. Implement the added theories to tweak the original.

5. Don't have a baseline to go back to, just keep moving forward.

Of course, many of our government systems are like this, which is why they are so bloated and useless.

Perhaps things are moving in the direction you recommend. When I studied Education 25 years ago, national standards, national accreditation...these were just faint rumblings. Today my wife is in the same program, but they are learning research-based standards, and how to make sure their lessons comply with state and national standards. Teachers today understand that the standardized test not only measure student achievement, but teacher achievement as well. Additionally, many states are publishing school and classroom results--so that teachers with overall lower score-improvements are being exposed. I commented just the other day that education is looking more and more like science, and less like art.

[prisonchaplain]

I know the natural reaction to bad schools is taking your kids out of those schools and putting them in private schools. But this is going to end up bad for the U.S. Private schools are private because they don't let everyone in the school in the first place.

The rich already do this. Voucher systems allow the middle class and poor to get in on the game.

We will see more money flowing from the public to private schools. The private schools will cherry pick the best teachers from the public schools. They will cherry pick the best students.

Private schools that accept vouchers will likely have to accept the restrictions that will surely come with them.

But with more private education we will start to to see walls built between those levels. One of the great things about the U.S. is the middle class and how people can move from the lower to middle and middle to upper and from upper to middle and lower. But with more private education that movement is going to stop.

This push to a voucher system is bad for the country.

Most of the middle class that want vouchers are seeking schools with a religious worldview. This is not about class warfare as much as it is about spiritual perspective. There are non-religious homeschoolers, for example. However, the vast majority do this because of the moral environment they see lacking in their local schools. Academic achievement may well be a close second factor.

BTW, some districts are keeping the middle and upper middle class students by offering "choice"--allowing parents to pick ANY school in the districts. This actually creates a caste system, because families that can afford to transport their own kids get out of the poor, low-achieving schools and migrate to the better schools in the district.

Since I cannot afford private school, and we do not choose to home school, our kids participate in the choice program. Not very egalitarian of me, but like nearly all parents, my own kids do come first.

[Vort]

Hi, PC.

I'm unclear on your meaning here. If you are suggesting that parents bear the final responsiblity for whether their kids succeed, why would the unions care?

The teachers unions are perfectly happy for parents to help their children succeed in public schools. More successful children = better pay for teachers. But teachers unions do NOT want parents teaching their children at home if that means the kids don't go to public schools, because that threatens the teachers' jobs -- and in the union's mind, the schools exist primarily to give teachers jobs, not to educate children. They can hardly be blamed for this; as one teacher succinctly put it, "the NEA is our union, not the kids'."

On the other hand, if you are suggesting the end of public education, then my guess is that not just the unions, but most Americans would be opposed. The belief that all American children deserve at least a high school education is pretty well established.

I am trying to say as clearly as I can that the RESPONSIBILITY FOR EDUCATING CHILDREN BELONGS TO THE PARENTS. It is not the states' job to educate kids. It is the parents' job.

One possible avenue to discharge that educational obligation is public education. This is fine; if the parents wish to establish publicly-funded schools and let those schools educate their children, that's how society works. But when the public schools fail to educate the children adequately and/or fail to provide a good environment for the kids, then ultimately, the responsibility lies with the parents. Complain all you want about crummy schools, but in the end, it's your responsibility to see to your child's education.

If we would simply acknowledge and live by this one self-evident truth, many of the problems of our children's education would be resolved quickly.

[prisonchaplain]

My beef with the NEA is two-fold. They force union membership as the price of admission into a public school teacher job, and then require members to financially support unrelated political causes, such as abortion. Secondly, while I would offer that the union leadership sincerely believes it is ultimately helping education, the protection of members, regardless of performance, does outweigh the quality of instruction students receive. On the other hand, the NEA does fight for better teacher pay and training, and those are worthy positions.

So...I toss my hat in with VORT on his overarching point--irregardless of the state of public education, how well a child is educated does ultimately lie with the parents.

[Guest]

i agree programming should be taught even at 1st grade because it is at its core pure logic.

programming basically comes down to....if this happens then this will happen else if this didnt happen then this will happen instead. well programming also uses those if scenarios as well as while scenarios where while this is happening then this will continue to happen. these two logic statements sum up life and programming but many people cant fathom these two basic principles of life and school sure as heck doesnt teach it.

that there sums up programming. it doesnt always stay that simple and unless its a career choice you certainly dont need to know the more crazy aspects of it which are just wilder if this than that and wild this is going on this will continue to happen scenarios

programming can also teach common sense. a programmer has that logic built into his/her brain something a lot of people are lacking these days.

if the class doesnt focus to heavily on the actual coding aspect but the actual logic and design part....teaching programming as early as the 1st grade i think could yield a lot of benefits.

simply because ive studied programming my brain tends to like to logically anaylze things by nature. and while i fail miserably at math programming has at least sharpened my common sense skills something that is currently bleeding to death in the world because as i said programming is pure logic. nothing but logic. if things dont logically add up then the program does crazy stuff.

example logic dictates to get out of debt one must spend less and put more money towards the debt. its basic logic. yet many cant fathom getting out of debt by spending less they spend more the absolute opposite of logic. heck God is logical as well. nothing he does is without some form of logic to it and reason. in fact its illogical to assume there is no God. programming teaching takes this idea of logic should be applied everywhere.

in fact whether i do major in programming or not is irrelevant because at the very least learning about logic and design has sharpened my mind and i think it should be mandatory. the problem is not a lot of people are qualified to teach this and in high school programming teachers are jokes that can do little more than write lines of code and compile stuff and not really tell you the logic behind it

bottom line a common thought process for one that has studied basic programming should be....well if i do this....then what will happen next? most dont think about and thus the problems of the world are explained.

You captured my position on this matter to a T! That's awesome!

Currently, there are better ways to teach computational thinking through object programming with only very minimal coding. Most of it is point-and-click stuff, not much different from computer gaming and it does walk you through if/else logic and while processing. My kids love Alice (Alice.org). I introduced it to them like it was this new video game and they can spend hours on it building their world - they started with the skating girl and right now, my 9-year-old got a whole slew of people going around and around in a skating rink without bumping into each other. Yes, it doesn't quite compete with Lego star wars but they can only play Lego star wars on the weekend while they can go on Alice anytime as long as their homework and chores are done...

You gotta check it out!

[kayne]

You captured my position on this matter to a T! That's awesome!

Currently, there are better ways to teach computational thinking through object programming with only very minimal coding. Most of it is point-and-click stuff, not much different from computer gaming and it does walk you through if/else logic and while processing. My kids love Alice (Alice.org). I introduced it to them like it was this new video game and they can spend hours on it building their world - they started with the skating girl and right now, my 9-year-old got a whole slew of people going around and around in a skating rink without bumping into each other. Yes, it doesn't quite compete with Lego star wars but they can only play Lego star wars on the weekend while they can go on Alice anytime as long as their homework and chores are done...

You gotta check it out!

that site looks awesome ill have to give it a more detailed look later.

but that is one of the pitfalls of this is object oriented programming. it can be a beast to learn which is why im no advocating that aspect of it but rather the pure if and while conditions. really object oriented stuff isnt beginner stuff and the syntax is a whole other nightmare.

and your right languages like visual basic for example can be used to simply and effect teach this concept and not get to bogged down in the nitty gritty of it all.

im guessing you are a programmer or have studied it to some degree?

on another note ive passed endless history tests because of the games colonization and civilization lol so all a matter of how you approach it if the activity if fun youll learn something from it.

[Guest]

Perhaps things are moving in the direction you recommend. When I studied Education 25 years ago, national standards, national accreditation...these were just faint rumblings. Today my wife is in the same program, but they are learning research-based standards, and how to make sure their lessons comply with state and national standards. Teachers today understand that the standardized test not only measure student achievement, but teacher achievement as well. Additionally, many states are publishing school and classroom results--so that teachers with overall lower score-improvements are being exposed. I commented just the other day that education is looking more and more like science, and less like art.

PC, this sounded really good in concept but it's a big FAIL in Florida! I'm currently fighting to get this changed...

Florida has the FCAT- standardized testing. A student (starting 3rd grade) cannot move up unless he passes that test. A teacher's bonus is dependent on these scores. The school's funding is dependent on these scores.

Here is the problem:

Many students, especially boys (my boy included, sigh), have a really tough time with the way the test is structured. Each subject is a 1-hour test most of which is multiple choice. My son, like most boys do not excel in this type of testing. This is more fitting a girl's style. A boy will look at a multiple-choice test and find "patterns" instead of taking the question at face value. Most boys will not keep their brains engaged for a full hour on multiple choice questions. My son's brain (a straight A student otherwise) literally spaces out within the first 15 minutes. The resultant effect to this is that the teacher spends most of the school year teaching a student how to pass a test than teaching the material. I have to continually sit down with my son and teach him some tricks on how to keep his brain in the test... Not many parents will do this. I didn't want to do this. I know my son knows the subject matter, I could care less if he passes the FCAT or not.

This year, a very large number of seniors in my county failed the FCATs. They cannot get a diploma. Upon further investigation, a lot of these students are smart kids who know the subject matter, they just suck at test taking. So that, their excellent work for the entire school year is nullified by one lousy test... preventing them from entrance to college or the military.

And one more thing. There are students who are just not smart enough or are delinquents. Possibly with sone psychological issues or some stuff happening at home (going through divorce, etc.). The teachers are now getting dinged for these students when their failure is completely beyond the teacher's control.

There has got to be a happy medium. I don't know what it is yet. The Philippines don't do this. Their pass/failure is determined by the school. The school will not pass a less deserving student because the school's reputation is on the line if the student fails outside of the school. This environment is not present in America, so it doesn't apply.

We have standardized test to gain entrance to college called NCEE (similar to SAT's) but one of your subjects in senior year is dedicated to NCEE and practice testing... That's an entire school year of 3 credit hours dedicated to translating your learning into maximizing your scores on the NCEE. So, it is a completely different scenario than the FCATs.

So yea, just something for you to mull about...

Edited May 17, 2011 by anatess

[Guest]

that site looks awesome ill have to give it a more detailed look later.

but that is one of the pitfalls of this is object oriented programming. it can be a beast to learn which is why im no advocating that aspect of it but rather the pure if and while conditions. really object oriented stuff isnt beginner stuff and the syntax is a whole other nightmare.

and your right languages like visual basic for example can be used to simply and effect teach this concept and not get to bogged down in the nitty gritty of it all.

im guessing you are a programmer or have studied it to some degree?

on another note ive passed endless history tests because of the games colonization and civilization lol so all a matter of how you approach it if the activity if fun youll learn something from it.

Yes, I'm a programmer by trade. I've been a paid programmer since I was 12 (yo Pam! I mentioned it again for the 13th time! ).

When you go through Alice (designed for kids), you'll see how o-o gets to "fade with the wallpaper" so that it becomes an instinctive thing than a conscious effort. It only comes into focus when you have a timing issue - like, if you have 2 objects moving at the same time with one using sequential processing to decide its movement, and your if-logic can't catch up because the other object already changed states, know what I mean?

[kayne]

PC, this sounded really good in concept but it's a big FAIL in Florida! I'm currently fighting to get this changed...

Florida has the FCAT- standardized testing. A student (starting 3rd grade) cannot move up unless he passes that test. A teacher's bonus is dependent on these scores. The school's funding is dependent on these scores.

Here is the problem:

Many students, especially boys (my boy included, sigh), have a really tough time with the way the test is structured. Each subject is a 1-hour test most of which is multiple choice. My son, like most boys do not excel in this type of testing. This is more fitting a girl's style. A boy will look at a multiple-choice test and find "patterns" instead of taking the question at face value. Most boys will not keep their brains engaged for a full hour on multiple choice questions. My son's brain (a straight A student otherwise) literally spaces out within the first 15 minutes. The resultant effect to this is that the teacher spends most of the school year teaching a student how to pass a test than teaching the material. I have to continually sit down with my son and teach him some tricks on how to keep his brain in the test... Not many parents will do this. I didn't want to do this. I know my son knows the subject matter, I could care less if he passes the FCAT or not.

This year, a very large number of seniors in my county failed the FCATs. They cannot get a diploma. Upon further investigation, a lot of these students are smart kids who know the subject matter, they just suck at test taking. So that, their excellent work for the entire school year is nullified by one lousy test... preventing them from entrance to college or the military.

There has got to be a happy medium. I don't know what it is yet. The Philippines don't do this. Their pass/failure is determined by the school. The school will not pass a less deserving student because the school's reputation is on the line if the student fails outside of the school. This environment is not present in America, so it doesn't apply.

We have standardized test to gain entrance to college called NCEE (similar to SAT's) but one of your subjects in senior year is dedicated to NCEE and practice testing... That's an entire school year of 3 credit hours dedicated to translating your learning into maximizing your scores on the NCEE. So, it is a completely different scenario than the FCATs.

So yea, just something for you to mull about...

same thing with final exams....you fail it and in 95% of the classes your screwed because its like 30-50% of your grade

honestly its unfair and ridiculous.

[kayne]

Yes, I'm a programmer by trade. I've been a paid programmer since I was 12 (yo Pam! I mentioned it again for the 13th time! ).

When you go through Alice (designed for kids), you'll see how o-o gets to "fade with the wallpaper" so that it becomes an instinctive thing than a conscious effort. It only comes into focus when you have a timing issue - like, if you have 2 objects moving at the same time with one using sequential processing to decide its movement, and your if-logic can't catch up because the other object already changed states, know what I mean?

ah i see ya that makes sense. figures why youd understand the value of logic design lol of course im sure you understand most folks are turned off by the strange syntax lol so this idea stands no chance of succeeding

is that mentioning it the 13th time some kind of weird joke?

[Guest]

ah i see ya that makes sense. figures why youd understand the value of logic design lol of course im sure you understand most folks are turned off by the strange syntax lol so this idea stands no chance of succeeding

is that mentioning it the 13th time some kind of weird joke?

Uhm, ok, I gotta admit, I'm a nerd... Or propellerhead as my friends like to say. But hey, it hasn't prevented me from snagging a wonderful husband. LOL!

Yea, Pam likes to point out that I say that tidbit a lot here on lds.net... Kinda like how lds.netters like to rib her on her age.

[Vort]

same thing with final exams....you fail it and in 95% of the classes your screwed because its like 30-50% of your grade

honestly its unfair and ridiculous.

It is only unfair and ridiculous because the test doesn't actually test proficiency in the subject. Rather, it tests your ability to take the test.

This is tautological to some degree; all tests by definition test your ability to succeed on the test. But some tests carry over quite well to actual application or demonstration of the knowledge you've learned, while other tests do a very poor job of measuring how well you can use the subject.

If a test could perfectly measure your command of the subject, it would be entirely "fair" to base 100% of your grade on a single test. That is, ideally, what a grade is supposed to represent: Your mastery of the subject. The fact that most grades are not based entirely on a single test is a concession to the fact that tests are, at best, a rough and not altogether accurate measure of mastery.

[Guest]

same thing with final exams....you fail it and in 95% of the classes your screwed because its like 30-50% of your grade

honestly its unfair and ridiculous.

Yes. It's like this to the extreme degree... Because it is 100% of the decision to pass or fail!

[prisonchaplain]

Anatess...I agree that standardized testing has its limits. Some states have gone to a mixture of objective and essay type questions. Irregardless, I agree that the test, by itself, should not be a barrier to graduation. Nevertheless, the instrument probably serves a greater use as a means for schools and districts to evaluate their programs. It may be one aspect of evaluating teachers, and perhaps prying ourselves away from tenure for K-12 teachers. The whole purpose of tenure is to guarantee professors academic freedom, not to protect substandard teachers of logged in enough years.

[ferretrunner]

IMO, schools should not generalize until later. A 3rd grader is not going to 'know' what he wants to be when he grows up. In addition to reading, writing, arithmatic; classes like history, social studies, science, pyschology, foreign languages, and even art, music, drama have important parts in developing critical skills. And it gives kids a chance to try new topics to see what they like and have talent in.

I grew up in an educational family. One of the frustrations I heard constantly from my father (a uni professor in education) and his students (PhD candidates in education) is parents expecting the schools to educate their children and taking no responsibility themselves. Kids need to learn at home. School really should augment or maybe offer some direction to the educational process. And if a school has to discipline Junior- maybe Junior did something wrong.

Do away with mainstreaming. Kids learn at different speeds. Having a kid with an IQ of 90 in the same class as a kid with an IQ of 130 isn't doing either kid any good. Find a way to have the children learn as they can. Advanced classes and programs and classes and programs for kids who aren't as educationally gifted.

Bring back trade training. Not every kid can (or should) go to college. Strong trade and work skills will suit them better and meet their needs/ interests.

[kayne]

IMO, schools should not generalize until later. A 3rd grader is not going to 'know' what he wants to be when he grows up. In addition to reading, writing, arithmatic; classes like history, social studies, science, pyschology, foreign languages, and even art, music, drama have important parts in developing critical skills. And it gives kids a chance to try new topics to see what they like and have talent in.

I grew up in an educational family. One of the frustrations I heard constantly from my father (a uni professor in education) and his students (PhD candidates in education) is parents expecting the schools to educate their children and taking no responsibility themselves. Kids need to learn at home. School really should augment or maybe offer some direction to the educational process. And if a school has to discipline Junior- maybe Junior did something wrong.

Do away with mainstreaming. Kids learn at different speeds. Having a kid with an IQ of 90 in the same class as a kid with an IQ of 130 isn't doing either kid any good. Find a way to have the children learn as they can. Advanced classes and programs and classes and programs for kids who aren't as educationally gifted.

Bring back trade training. Not every kid can (or should) go to college. Strong trade and work skills will suit them better and meet their needs/ interests.

i agree with this

[Backroads]

Ooh, I missed a lot...

Sports. Keep 'em. To deny sports is to deny that that all kids have different intelligences. Some kids are simply athletically intelligent. Let's support that. I believe sports also bring in school spirit, give kids something to do, something to shoot for, etc.

Standardized testing: In my first comment about it, I did say "if we have to have them". I am hestitant about getting rid of them altogether, I would just like less focus. There are other methods of assessment, and some are worse than standardized testing.

Kids should be required to go to school, at least until a certain age.

I believe some tracking to be a good idea, but I still don't know if I want to get my master's in education or library science or environmental science or whatever. I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.

Discussed this on Sunday with some people... I still stress charter schools, or at least a public school system that allows for variation and choice. I have issues with making everything private as that would only let the rich families get the best education.