Question

[Setheus]

I watched a program on Discovery the other night and it was about Judas "friend or foe"

The show was pretty interesting because while it showed pros and cons to the question of wheather or not Judas was truly a "betrayer" or if he was following

instruction from Jesus, it remained nutural.

What does the LDS church say?

There were many things that could lead one to believe that Judas was following

instructions when he "betrayed" Jesus. And the fact he hanged himself afterwards

was in my opinion compared to say a solder being trained and instructed for War

but once getting there and seeing the true carnage of it all loosing his will and

running away, killing himself, or loosing his mind.

At the same time there is much evidence that Judas was just as he has been stereo typed for 20 centuries....an evil man who betrayed the Master.

[Guest Starsky]

I believe the church teaches Judas as a betrayer...what do the scriptures teach?

Matt. 10: 4

4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Matt. 27: 3

3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Mark 3: 19

19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.

Mark 14: 10

10 And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him unto them.

Luke 6: 16

16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

Luke 22: 3

3 ¶ Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Luke 22: 48

48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?

this one really tells us that even Christ saw him as a traitor/betrayer..

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Setheus@Mar 1 2004, 04:49 PM

What does the LDS church say?

I don't know what the official LDS stance is on Judas. It's really an interesting topic though. The betrayal could be interpreted to have fulfilled scripture. What I think is interesting is that none of apostles really seemed to know Judas' motivation, but they speculate. Luke thinks he did it because the 'Devil made him do it." Matthew says it was for money. I seriously doubt Judas ever explained his actions to the other apostles, so, unless Jesus explained it to them, they probably just guessed at his reasons. With hindsite, some Bible experts think Judas was one of the Jews expecting a political messiah and didn't understand that his message was spiritual. If this were the case, it would make sense that he came up with a plan to get Jesus before the Sanhedrin with the thought that they would surely understand and proclaim him the Messiah. When it didn't work out that way, he was wracked with guilt, gave the money back to the Sanhedrin and committed suicide. He did betray Him. Whether or not it was intentional is anyone's guess.

[Traveler]

It is interesting to me to consider the various types and shadows of the anti Christ provided in ancient scripture. Judas as a type of Anti Christ that was once a close and trusted friend of the Christ that joined with other Anti to Christ inorder to take Jesus at night under the cover of darkness.

It has always been of great interest to me that many that claim to be close to Christ then in another breath deny the necessity of being obedient to all of his commandments.

Jesus also said that not every one that says "Lord, Lord" unto Jesus and claims to do great things in his name were ever authorized by Jesus. Jesus says of such that he will provess he never knew them. This phrase can also be translated as he never authorized them.

I believe Judas is a type and shadow of Anti Christ among us in our current day.

The Traveler

[Jenda]

I guess I am not sure I believe that Judas is a betrayer in my mind. He was needed to help Jesus to fulfill all righteousness. He played an important part in what needed to happen, and he was true to his calling. Could that be the reason he was called by Jesus to begin with?

[Tr2]

I thank God for Judas. Jesus would have never made it to the cross without him.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 1 2004, 05:02 PM

Luke 22: 48

48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?

this one really tells us that even Christ saw him as a traitor/betrayer..

Well, the act that Judas performed was a betrayal, but was that his calling is my question.

I think that when Jesus made the statement he did in the scripture he quoted, he was not condemning Judas, he was asking if he had to use a symbol of love to betray him. Could he not have used another signal? That is my take on that scripture.

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Jenda+Mar 2 2004, 07:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Mar 2 2004, 07:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Mar 1 2004, 05:02 PM

Luke 22: 48

48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?

this one really tells us that even Christ saw him as a traitor/betrayer..

Well, the act that Judas performed was a betrayal, but was that his calling is my question.

I think that when Jesus made the statement he did in the scripture he quoted, he was not condemning Judas, he was asking if he had to use a symbol of love to betray him. Could he not have used another signal? That is my take on that scripture.

This is very interesting. Jenda raises another question: If Judas was performing his calling as a betrayer of Christ, then was Lucifer fulfilling his calling being cast out of heaven and becoming our temptation on earth?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 1 2004, 10:03 PM

I guess I am not sure I believe that Judas is a betrayer in my mind.  He was needed to help Jesus to fulfill all righteousness.  He played an important part in what needed to happen, and he was true to his calling.  Could that be the reason he was called by Jesus to begin with?

What about these:

Matt. 18: 7

7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Matt. 26: 24

24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Mark 14: 21

21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

Luke 17: 1

1 THEN said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

Luke 22: 22

22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Behunin+Mar 2 2004, 08:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Behunin @ Mar 2 2004, 08:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Mar 2 2004, 07:56 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Mar 1 2004, 05:02 PM

Luke 22: 48

48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?

this one really tells us that even Christ saw him as a traitor/betrayer..

Well, the act that Judas performed was a betrayal, but was that his calling is my question.

I think that when Jesus made the statement he did in the scripture he quoted, he was not condemning Judas, he was asking if he had to use a symbol of love to betray him. Could he not have used another signal? That is my take on that scripture.

This is very interesting. Jenda raises another question: If Judas was performing his calling as a betrayer of Christ, then was Lucifer fulfilling his calling being cast out of heaven and becoming our temptation on earth?

Now you are seeing the light. In order to understand it better, see the plan of salvation in II Nephi 2.

In order for us to live with God as he intended us to, we had to fall from an innocent state. Knowing good and evil, and choosing the good. It was only through this process that Christ would come to redeem us and we could approach the throne of the Heavenly Father to live with Him eternally. This was necessary because God did not want us as puppets, He wanted us to be there because we wanted to be there.

So, in that sense, maybe, yes, Satan was fulfilling a call, too. But he did it knowingly, he had evil in his heart right from the beginning.

[porterrockwell]

Judas was not fullfilling a "calling". Had he not betrayed Jesus, by some other means he would have been crucified. Let's not forget what are beloved brethren the Jews said,"Let his blood be on our heads, and our children's". Powerful summary of what was set forth. What we must understand is that there is a plan, the Lord knows all our weaknesses and the million different ways our life can end up based on each little decision. He will never be "suprised" by our actions. So I do not think that fullfilling prophecy means you were "meant" to do it. You can still choose not to side with the betrayers of the word, it just means there is an opportunity for someone else to succomb to that same weakness.

[Jenda]

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the word "calling". In it's simplest sense, it is the work that God gives to us to perform. And I don't understand how you can make the judgment that Judas wasn't fulfilling a "calling". Are you privy to the nudgings and promptings that he experienced in his life?

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 2 2004, 03:03 PM

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the word "calling". In it's simplest sense, it is the work that God gives to us to perform. And I don't understand how you can make the judgment that Judas wasn't fulfilling a "calling". Are you privy to the nudgings and promptings that he experienced in his life?

The whole point is he had a choice, the Lord just knew which choice was the most likely to happen. The Lord knows us better than ourselves. I do understand the meaning of the word calling. I also know that had Judas not betrayed Christ, someone else would have set in motion an event or series of events that would have led to his crucifixion. Just as there are those who are foreordained to be prophets, they still must be worthy to be called to that position. Just like the birthright of Reuben, he lost it because he committed a grievous sin. So if a man was foreordained to be a member of the 12, yet he must first be converted, and the young man(or men) foreordained to touch him, bring him the Gospel and he rejects it...and continues to follow an unrighteous path and never accepts the Gospel, nor becomes a member of the 12. There are "alternatives" to that foreordination that the Lord has lined up in the even that A doesn't work out. In which B would become expedient. Judas had a choice, there is no excuse for him, nor do I thank him for anything. He denied the Christ, as was worse he died in his sins. That is like saying that I must rejoice Satan. Which I will never do. There must be opposition in all things, but we have a choice. Look at Enoch, they were eventually so righteous they were translated.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by porterrockwell+Mar 2 2004, 03:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (porterrockwell @ Mar 2 2004, 03:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 2 2004, 03:03 PM

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the word "calling".  In it's simplest sense, it is the work that God gives to us to perform.  And I don't understand how you can make the judgment that Judas wasn't fulfilling a "calling".  Are you privy to the nudgings and promptings that he experienced in his life?

The whole point is he had a choice, the Lord just knew which choice was the most likely to happen. The Lord knows us better than ourselves. I do understand the meaning of the word calling. I also know that had Judas not betrayed Christ, someone else would have set in motion an event or series of events that would have led to his crucifixion. Just as there are those who are foreordained to be prophets, they still must be worthy to be called to that position. Just like the birthright of Reuben, he lost it because he committed a grievous sin. So if a man was foreordained to be a member of the 12, yet he must first be converted, and the young man(or men) foreordained to touch him, bring him the Gospel and he rejects it...and continues to follow an unrighteous path and never accepts the Gospel, nor becomes a member of the 12. There are "alternatives" to that foreordination that the Lord has lined up in the even that A doesn't work out. In which B would become expedient. Judas had a choice, there is no excuse for him, nor do I thank him for anything. He denied the Christ, as was worse he died in his sins. That is like saying that I must rejoice Satan. Which I will never do. There must be opposition in all things, but we have a choice. Look at Enoch, they were eventually so righteous they were translated.

That's right. Judas had a choice, and the Lord knew what was most likely to happen in that situation had Judas been placed there. He was chosen for that reason. It is a calling. A work that God needed performed placed upon the person who was most likely to perform it.

You can use the defense that if he didn't do it someone else would with just about everything that happens in history. Joseph Smith. If he hadn't done it, someone else would have. Your calling at church. If you aren't performing it, someone else would be.

The fact that it (the betrayal) is looked on as a negative act doesn't negate the fact that it is (or could be) a calling.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 2 2004, 03:31 PM

He denied the Christ, as was worse he died in his sins. That is like saying that I must rejoice Satan.

How did Judas deny the Christ? I don't recall the scriptures saying anywhere that he denied Christ only that he handed him over to the Sanhedrin.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jenda+Mar 2 2004, 03:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Mar 2 2004, 03:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -porterrockwell@Mar 2 2004, 03:31 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 2 2004, 03:03 PM

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the word "calling".  In it's simplest sense, it is the work that God gives to us to perform.  And I don't understand how you can make the judgment that Judas wasn't fulfilling a "calling".  Are you privy to the nudgings and promptings that he experienced in his life?

The whole point is he had a choice, the Lord just knew which choice was the most likely to happen. The Lord knows us better than ourselves. I do understand the meaning of the word calling. I also know that had Judas not betrayed Christ, someone else would have set in motion an event or series of events that would have led to his crucifixion. Just as there are those who are foreordained to be prophets, they still must be worthy to be called to that position. Just like the birthright of Reuben, he lost it because he committed a grievous sin. So if a man was foreordained to be a member of the 12, yet he must first be converted, and the young man(or men) foreordained to touch him, bring him the Gospel and he rejects it...and continues to follow an unrighteous path and never accepts the Gospel, nor becomes a member of the 12. There are "alternatives" to that foreordination that the Lord has lined up in the even that A doesn't work out. In which B would become expedient. Judas had a choice, there is no excuse for him, nor do I thank him for anything. He denied the Christ, as was worse he died in his sins. That is like saying that I must rejoice Satan. Which I will never do. There must be opposition in all things, but we have a choice. Look at Enoch, they were eventually so righteous they were translated.

That's right. Judas had a choice, and the Lord knew what was most likely to happen in that situation had Judas been placed there. He was chosen for that reason. It is a calling. A work that God needed performed placed upon the person who was most likely to perform it.

You can use the defense that if he didn't do it someone else would with just about everything that happens in history. Joseph Smith. If he hadn't done it, someone else would have. Your calling at church. If you aren't performing it, someone else would be.

The fact that it (the betrayal) is looked on as a negative act doesn't negate the fact that it is (or could be) a calling.

Hmm, do you also believe that Satan is fulfilling a calling that he got from God?

I don’t think so. I think God is just using Satan for God’s own purposes, to provide an environment where there can be some opposition to the counsel of God. God tells us to do this, and God knows that Satan will tell us to do that instead, but God does not tell Satan what to tell us to do. Satan wouldn’t do that anyway, because Satan only does what Satan wants to do. But God knows Satan, and God knows what Satan will do. What I can’t figure out is why Satan is opposing God, or actually helping God by providing the environment where there will be some opposition. If Satan never said anything, and never opposed God, there would be no opposition to the counsel of God, and everybody would only know what God says to do. Right? Maybe some people just can’t help being the people they are.

Anyway, God didn’t tell Judas what to do either. I think Judas was one of those people called “zealots”, who believed that Christ was coming to restore the physical kingdom of Israel. He was, but not the way they expected or at the time they expected. I think Judas was hoping that Jesus would be somehow coerced into establishing the kingdom of Israel as Judas and the other “zealots” expected it to be, and when it didn’t work out as he expected, and it looked like he was the cause of sending a “good” man to die by what was considered to be a disgraceful death, Judas couldn’t take the guilt and killed himself.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Mar 2 2004, 05:15 PM

Maybe some people just can’t help being the people they are.

Would that apply to homosexuals?

[Jenda]

Hmm, do you also believe that Satan is fulfilling a calling that he got from God?

To be honest, Ray, I was just extrapolating on an idea. I have found that helps me examine an idea more fully and come to a decision based on thoughtful studying, etc., and not just base my belief on "because someone else told me that is the way it is".

A question I have for the LDS here is, do you not see a calling as something you can choose to do or not? Because that is what a few of you have implied, that when you have a calling you are bound to it. I see a calling as something that you should want to do because you want to please the Lord (a choice), but if it becomes a hardship, it ceases to be a calling, and you have the choice (again) to let it go.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 2 2004, 06:25 PM

Hmm, do you also believe that Satan is fulfilling a calling that he got from God?

To be honest, Ray, I was just extrapolating on an idea. I have found that helps me examine an idea more fully and come to a decision based on thoughtful studying, etc., and not just base my belief on "because someone else told me that is the way it is".

That is cool Jenda, also smart.

[Guest Starsky]

Jenda:

A question I have for the LDS here is, do you not see a calling as something you can choose to do or not? Because that is what a few of you have implied, that when you have a calling you are bound to it. I see a calling as something that you should want to do because you want to please the Lord (a choice), but if it becomes a hardship, it ceases to be a calling, and you have the choice (again) to let it go.

What do you think of the 'calling' Jonah had and the fact he wasn't able to let it go?

I have had 'Jonah' type callings from the Lord on occassions, and I was not allowed to let them go either.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 2 2004, 07:07 PM

Jenda:

A question I have for the LDS here is, do you not see a calling as something you can choose to do or not? Because that is what a few of you have implied, that when you have a calling you are bound to it. I see a calling as something that you should want to do because you want to please the Lord (a choice), but if it becomes a hardship, it ceases to be a calling, and you have the choice (again) to let it go.

What do you think of the 'calling' Jonah had and the fact he wasn't able to let it go?

I have had 'Jonah' type callings from the Lord on occassions, and I was not allowed to let them go either.

Jonah made a choice. He chose to run away from his calling until he realized that to fulfill it would be a better option for him. But he had that choice. He could stay in the belly of the whale, or do what God asked.

I do agree that sometimes it doesn't seem like we have a choice, but when we have that perception, often the choice boils down to doing what God asks or something entirely unpleasant. But, it is still a choice.

[Guest Starsky]

That is what I was saying...we are manipulated into compliance...which isn't really a choice....of choices...you know? LOL

I mean....hey...you either do it or I will burn you in the acid of the belly of that their whale over there... I don't care if these people wanted to kill you and almost did once....you go there and tell them my message...LOL

I don't like to put the word choice there...but of course I must....it is I just don't want to.

[AFDaw]

Warning...I admit to having not read all of the replies. With that said, take this next statement for what it's worth.

ABC is showing Judas. Might be interested to watch and then converse.

[Guest Starsky]

Cool link...that really gave a lot of information about Judas' life...was it correct historically?

[AFDaw]

No clue...but I would think it would be pretty acurate.