Will American Jews Sell Out Israel?

[pam]

Let's keep personal comments and opinions as to who should and shouldn't on this site have the right to vote out of this.

[prisonchaplain]

My intuition about U.S.-Saudi relations appears to be correct. The following official report spells out our areas of potential conflict, but describes the kingdom as one of our strongest Middle East allies in the war on terrorism. Saudi Arabia

[HoosierGuy]

GOP sees Israel as wedge issue - TheHill.com

I'm not anti-Israel. Very much the opposite, I want to see peace in that country and whole area.

[prisonchaplain]

Hoosier...of course support of Israel will be an important issue for the GOP...since President Obama choose an extreme departure from long-standing U.S. policy, one would expect pro-Israel Republicans to capitalize on this. That's a far cry from saying that they've only picked up on the issue to get votes. Rather, it's "Say...my stance now has added traction, because the opposition has gone so far the other way."

[Guest]

Let's keep personal comments and opinions as to who should and shouldn't on this site have the right to vote out of this.

Just to let you know, there was nothing in my post that states who should or shouldn't have a right to vote.

I merely stated a suggestion to at least go beyond the broad brush when you do have the privilege to vote. Nothing worse than PC telling the same person how absurd his statement was.

But, you're the mod. I got my white flag waving.

Edited May 25, 2011 by anatess

[LDSJewess]

You may have inadvertently made our point. Rabbi Eckstein is Orthodox. He is not Messianic.

I stand corrected as I was one of those who thought otherwise. Eckstein is rare in the Orthodox community, as one major concern of the Orthodox Jews is assimulation. They take iossue against Conservative and Reform movements and go so far as to say that non Orthodox (which they choose to term "traditional" ) Jews are not practicing Judaism (as in the rekligion of course). The Reform movement is the largest American Jewish population and 51 percent are interfaith married which is a contention to Orthodox Jews because they worry about Jewish traditions lost especially when interfaith couple may not raise their children Jewish.

The Orthodox Jews tend to keep to themselves and are not much to mingle in the greater Jewish community (in America) with other movements. Reform Jews on the other hand have many interfaith outreach programs, planned exchange dinners and social functions with Christian congregations. Attempts to convert on either side is an unspoken rule not to engage in such activity, but Orthodox think otherwise. Interfaith relations lead to assimulation in their thinking.

It probably sounds obnoxious and triumphalist for us to say that evangelical Christians seem more supportive of the state of Israel than Jewish Americans. And, on a gut level, it's surely not true. The Holy Land is literally and biologically (as well as spiritually) in the blood of Jewish people. We Christians claim it by theology and "adoption."

Perhaps it's simply enough to say that the evangelical Christian support for Israel is huge right now. From our perspective, American Jewish political support for the Holy Land seems less, due to an overwhelming allegiance to the political party that is least committed Israel's support.

As for Christians claiming to be more supportive than Israel than Jews, that can be taken offensively by Jews regardless of their religious views. Perhaps "Christians" though is the wrong terminology rather gentiles or non-Jews. It really is not about religion rather heritage. As you said Israel is literally, biologically spiritually and in the blood of Jews, not necessarily in theology. The allegiance to Israel is far stronger than the allegiance to American politics or policies. Jews may vary greatly in opinion, politics, and yes even religion but when it comes to Israel, it's home and it's family and Jews will defend Israel.

Since PM Netanyahu's speech this morning and his subsequent interview on Fox, the Jewish chats, message boards, emails among the Jewish community nation wide is buzzing like crazy. Many American Jewish democrats may still stand for social justice, social programs, gay rights, and liberal social view points, and they tend to vote democrat due to social issues more than foreign policy; they still hold am chai yisrael in their hearts and minds above other issues. That appears to be changing though because remember America has always been pro Israel. We have never before had a President that took the side of anti Isreal groups so blatantly. No one is taking Obamas comments lightly. No surprise that he was out of the country when the PM of Israel's visit was planned by congress. It isn't like Obama didn't know about it. Politics are a crazy thing.

Keep in mind, Jews also believe Israel can and will defend itself with or without the help of the USA if it ever became necessary. But yes as you said, they like the money and having the sincere support of America, Christians or anyone else that stands for freedom is all good.

[HoosierGuy]

With Barack Obama announcing a radical shift in U.S. policy toward Israel, some are looking to the response of Jewish politicians, most of which are fellow Democrats.

Andrew Wilkow (wilkow majority on XM Sirius) is questioning whether Jews in Congress will stand up to Obama in support of their faith or go along with the Left's inherent anti-Israel sentiment.

This whole thread should not have even been allowed. Look at the title - Will American Jews Sell Out Israel? Huh? That's one sided.

And lefts inherent anti-Israel sentiment?

I call for this thread to not only be closed but also deleted.

[prisonchaplain]

Hoosier, people are allowed to post impassioned polemics. That is the nature of posting--especially in Current Events.

If you believe a particular post violates Terms of Service, then go through the process of reporting it. Making a public shout out for moderators to take a particular action could be construed as publically criticizing their inaction.

[skippy740]

This whole thread should not have even been allowed. Look at the title - Will American Jews Sell Out Israel? Huh? That's one sided.

And lefts inherent anti-Israel sentiment?

I call for this thread to not only be closed but also deleted.

(gonna keep my mouth shut on this one)

[LDSJewess]

Hoosier,

I think one thing Americans and Israelis can agree upon is that Freedom is what we value first and fore most. That freedom includes freedom of speech.

If we call to silence someone who does not agree with us, then ultimately we call for the silence of all, because we can all be assured someone is not going to agree with us.

Personally I would not post on message boards if they were all about high fiving each other for always thinking the same.

I am Jewish and I am also LDS (as my user name implies). Works for me, and it is complicated only to those that believe it so. And I am also a registered Democrat but am not a supporter of Omamas policies not do I agree with his first statement regarding the issue of Israel giving of land to Palestineans. Those will be decisions made through negotions between Israel and Abbas, not for Obama and the American administration to decide.

I posted opinions to clarity so that we cannot put Jew's in a specific classification of faith and beliefs because it is far more diverse than other religions, and the fact that Jews in America lean toward voting democrat is because of their social liberal tendencies, and not necessary foreign policy.

We get in trouble when we place labels in groups of people and assume they all think alike. And sometimes individual members that identify themselves with a group take offense.

I believe no post on any forum should be deleted unless it is a direct attack or threat on another person (like crying wolf in a crowded theatre).

This forum has rules regarding not speaking against the LDS church and we all have to respect this because it is an LDS forum.

Anger and censureship solves nothing.

[HoosierGuy]

My intuition about U.S.-Saudi relations appears to be correct. The following official report spells out our areas of potential conflict, but describes the kingdom as one of our strongest Middle East allies in the war on terrorism. Saudi Arabia

Listen to this podcast from the respected BBC World Service. It's from an audio program that is one of the best called From Our Own Correspondent. It's only ten minutes long but the Saudi story is only half of it. Listen to the first few minutes but the whole story is only four minutes and thirty seconds long, so give it all a listen. Try the second story too if you want. From Our Own Correspondent stories are almost aways well done.

Listen to the Saudi story - migrant workers being kicked because they did not know how to work a certain machine while in line at the airport. Woman are total property.

Listen to this and think about the innocents being beaten, enslaved, and murdered as you drive your car. And Bahrain is very Saudi. To think Formula One racing is thinking of going back to this country that suppresses the Shiites harshly.

BBC iPlayer - From Our Own Correspondent: Saudi Arabia and Algeria

[Guest]

Listen to this podcast from the respected BBC World Service. It's from an audio program that is one of the best called From Our Own Correspondent. It's only ten minutes long but the Saudi story is only half of it. Listen to the first few minutes but the whole story is only four minutes and thirty seconds long, so give it all a listen. Try the second story too if you want. From Our Own Correspondent stories are almost aways well done.

Listen to the Saudi story - migrant workers being kicked because they did not know how to work a certain machine while in line at the airport. Woman are total property.

Listen to this and think about the innocents being beaten, enslaved, and murdered as you drive your car. And Bahrain is very Saudi. To think Formula One racing is thinking of going back to this country that suppresses the Shiites harshly.

BBC iPlayer - From Our Own Correspondent: Saudi Arabia and Algeria

Hoosier, we're talking about allies in the War on Terrorism. A country's human rights violations is a separate matter.

It's like China for example. Very clear that they are our allies, especially against North Korea. Yet, they have tons of human rights issues. Because, even though you see rampant spousal abuse against women there - even husbands selling their wives to prostitution rings - they are still on America's side against North Korea, effectively keeping Kim Jong Il in check.

[prisonchaplain]

Hoosier, I do not endorse the behavior described on the podcast. Women should be able to vote and drive. However, our country will not intervene in such matters, when in other countries protestors are met with bullets, Christians are enslaved, women raped...there are much greater atrocities to condemn in places like the Sudan and Myanmar.

Further, I hardly see how this matter relates to our President throwing our strongest friend in the Middle East under the bus.

[pam]

This whole thread should not have even been allowed. Look at the title - Will American Jews Sell Out Israel? Huh? That's one sided.

And lefts inherent anti-Israel sentiment?

I call for this thread to not only be closed but also deleted.

But yet you didn't mind posting 7-8 times on it voicing your opinion.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

This whole thread should not have even been allowed. Look at the title - Will American Jews Sell Out Israel? Huh? That's one sided.

And lefts inherent anti-Israel sentiment?

I call for this thread to not only be closed but also deleted.

Or people can decide for themselves to not participate in conversations they don't like. Do you like it when people try to shut down your threads?

[NeuroTypical]

I suppose it comes down to the geopolitical concept of an ally. In an ideal world, the shiny perfect moral US would only form alliances with other shiny perfect moral contries. In the world we all have to live in, we're all fallen sinful agenda-driven error-prone humans, and we all have spotty pasts and current problems on all levels - individual, family, community, and national.

Moral consistency and geopolitics rarely work neatly together.

- George Friedman, Stratfor Global Intelligence

Countries make agreements, treaties, and alliances with each other for only one reason - doing so benefits each nation in some way. You might not like the other nation. You might have serious issues with things they do. Keep in mind they probably have serious issues with some of the things you do. There are plenty of folks in Saudi Arabia all ticked off that the kingdom works so closely with 'the Great Satan'. But the oil flows, and our economies benefit, and we all get to sit in a clilmate controlled room on a comfortable chair surrounded by abundance and plenty, and gripe about how things should be different.

[HoosierGuy]

Whatever. The U.S. citizens of Jewish heritage and many in Israel and I are all on the same page.

No More Applause | Jewish Voice for Peace

You would think after all we do Israel would not spit in America's eye. Also, all those congressmen standing up for Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu did it probably more out of fear from the Christian conservatives than actually wanting to support Netanyahu.

Israel does not defend itself. Israel is historically the number one recipient of US foreign aid. The US gives Israel a whopping $3 billion a year in aid and military equipment, most of which is used to defend Israel’s illegal occupation.

My last post on this thread.

[prisonchaplain]

Good...guess i get the last word...not sure why all those Democrats who cheered the Israeli Prime Minister were afraid of Christian conservatives...not exactly their base. Could it possibly be that they applauded the moral high ground, as they saw it?

[volgadon]

Honestly, the Jews most likely to "sell out" Israel are not the secular Leftists, but some of the extremist Hasidic types, like the Satmars, opposed to the state of Israel with every fibre of their being. They carry on cordial relations with Hamas, if that tells you anything.

[NeuroTypical]

Israel does not defend itself.

Well, that's the most easily refutable lie I've encountered since I got up this morning. Israel's 2011 defense budget is around $16 billion (6.9% of it's GDP) on defense this year. US military aid to Israel is around $3 billion.

So yeah, Israel is defending itself.

Not to mention that the Israeli armed forces is made up of over a million Israeli conscripts - including women sometimes given combat roles. In the last 10 years, over a thousand Israeli soldiers have been killed, and 7000 wounded in Palestinian violence.

You want to claim Israel isn't defending itself? Go make that claim to a family member of a fallen Israeli soldier.

Israel doesn't defend itself? Why on earth do people who are otherwise so smart, let themselves get suckered in to believing such dumb stuff? How come the anti-Jewish side has so much success making such outlandish stupid claims, and having people believe them?

We joke about how sometimes you can find someone who believes mormons have horns. It's not so funny to consider the people who not only believe crap about Jews drinking blood of arab children, but the number of people who actually advocate or take violent action against them because of these dumb beliefs.

Please, HoosierGuy, for the love of truth - you can argue your case without resorting to such horrible outright falsehoods. Israelis don't defend themselves? Passing along such a claim says more about you than it does about the issue at hand.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

The turmoil in the Middle East is nothing compared to a Middle East without Israel. President Obama is now hasting to tone down his earlier comments. Perhaps he's learning that over the last 50 years, Israel has produced a strategic benefit that more than justifies our investment in them.