A field trip to Hooters

[LDSJewess]

I have been to Hooters but will likely not return. Not because of how the waitresses were dressed, (actually they were dressed far more modestly than girls I seen in the shopping malls, on a beach of headed for high school and college classes). I actually discovered that Hooters waitresses are required to wear thick panty hose like that of some professional football cheerleaders. I won't go back to hooters because what I find disgusting is the fried fatty salty food that is just as harmful to the human body as the consumption of alcohol, tabbaco and coffee are.

I had to giggle at Vorts description of men having arrousal at looking at ladies on the beach. I think you may be among some men that have this issue but there are many men that are not quite so sensitive about these things. In fact I think that if people are too sheltered from the world around them, they can wind up having more problems in how they think and react.

It is funny but my father, (who was born in 1905) and since passed on, told stories of how his grandmother thought it was sinful listen to the victrola because hearing sounds coming from a machine were surely the devils work. And her husband said that "women of the evening" were tempting men to do sinful acts when they showed the tops of their boots.

Then of course we have modern day Islam that has stoned women for twempting men when they un veil and show their hair and even stricter Muslem sects thing womens eyes cause arrousal in men. So their women must wear a burqa and niqab that covers the entire body and only shows the face and eyes through a mesh.

The bottom line is if there is all this arrousal going on, then the men should stay off the beaches and places where they can so easily become arroused, or perhaps even see a therapist so that they can curb their physical desires and use their energy for more productive tasks.

Seriously though for men to blame women and call them immodest because THEY are arroused, is no different than blaming the victim of rape because she was wearing something that arroused the rapist. Sorry I am not buying that one.

[Vort]

i could get my husband to say it if that would help. he totally shares my views.

Two possibilities:

• He actually shares your views. This is possible; men are not identical. But it would certainly make him part of a minority.
• He tells you he shares your veiws because he knows what your reaction would be if he were to say otherwise. As a husband, I cannot fault a man for this...

but might it be because you were taught to think of it that way in your society?

I suppose that's possible, but it seems rather unlikely. I led a pretty sheltered life until my teenage years, but from my childhood I thought of things this way. Most men I've had discussions with about this seem to agree with me. So, as a man, I'll accept my own point of view in this matter in preference to yours.

think about breasts for a minute...or take the example of, i guess i should say XD we're gaga for them here.

Yes, breasts have always been a big deal (no pun intended) (well, okay, maybe a little) in American society during my lifetime. But I never had a great fascination with breasts while growing up, so that aspect didn't really influence me too much. So this observation rather contradicts your assertion.

[LDSJewess]

Do you suppose women would wear such skimpy swimwear if men didn't find it pruriently attractive? If so, why didn't they wear it a hundred (or even fifty) years ago?

Not necessarily Vort. Although I will agree that a number of younger unmarried girls and women wear swimsuits to attract men; a large amount of the female population truly dress for themselves and yes even to impress (not attract) other women.

Women tend to be fashion conscious. It is why men don't truly understand why women put on an ourfit and ask their husband or boyfriend, "How do I look" only to get an answer like "fine" when the man is not taking notice. Women like to shop with other women and comment on how each other looks in ourfits (swimsuits included). Women like to look into a mirror and take satisfaction in how they look. This is even true of married women not looking for men, single women not looking for men, and lesbian women not looking for men.

Sorry guys, it is not alays about you.

[Vort]

Seriously though for men to blame women and call them immodest because THEY are arroused, is no different than blaming the victim of rape because she was wearing something that arroused the rapist.

Let me see if I understand you correctly, LDSJewess:

• Man sees woman in very revealing clothing with plunging neckline t-shirt cutoff, exposed bottoms of breasts and midriff, and tight minishorts with "camel toe". Man, physically aroused, says, "That woman is dressed immodestly."

• Man sees woman lying in alley with above-mentioned clothes ripped off, battered and raped. Man says, "That woman deserved to be raped because she aroused her attacker."

It is your assertion that A and B above are identical. Correct?

[LDSJewess]

Vort in an sense yes. They have been man a defense attorney representing a rapist that has tried to put the rape victim on trial because "she was asking for it the way she was dressed."

I am also saying that not every man does think the same about what arrouses him. Using the Burqa for example or the days of women not allowed to show the tops of their boots in Victorian America are a case in point.

I am not saying LDS women should work at Hooters nor should LDS husbands frequent the place or take our kids there, but living by the rules that we signed up for when we joined the church and judging others who don't live by our standsards are two different things indeed.

[Vort]

Vort in an sense yes.

Then I fear that further conversation on this particular point is fruitless. We are at an impasse, because we have completely different interpretations of reality.

In Vort's universe, a man making a judgment that a woman is dressed immodestly (even if that means she has a hole in the knee of her burqa) is utterly different from a man saying that a woman deserved to be attacked and raped because of the sexual arousal a man felt in looking at her. I do not know how to respond to someone who believes those situations are, in effect, identical.

I am not saying LDS women should work at Hooters nor should LDS husbands frequent the place or take our kids there, but living by the rules that we signed up for when we joined the church and judging others who don't live by our standsards are two different things indeed.

I am not aware of anyone on this or any related thread who has suggested any such thing.

[LDSJewess]

I am not saying that alll men become rapists because a women is not dressed modestly (by their definition of modesty).

What I do take issue with is when men cannot seem to take control over their minds and bodies, then they don't see it as THEIR problem and in turn blame the women for their problems and thus impsoing rules and yes even laws on women regarding what is and is not modest in THEIR eyes.

Men have free agency just as women do, and if men cannot control their urges then that is their free agency and they are accountable for not just their acts but their thoughts and urges.

[Latter Days Guy]

Seriously? If you have to ask, I guess I can't explain it to you. Most men of my acquaintance understand this intuitively.

I guess I have problems then, mate. As do most men.

Do you suppose women would wear such skimpy swimwear if men didn't find it pruriently attractive? If so, why didn't they wear it a hundred (or even fifty) years ago?

Your qualifier is noted.

Funny as most men I know wouldn't as they see beyond the idea that women = sex idea that you seem to have. And I very much doubt that most men do either.

I would suppose that most women wear skimpy swim wear because its fashionable to do so, most of the women I know choose their clothes because its fashionable.

[Vort]

Funny as most men I know wouldn't as they see beyond the idea that women = sex idea that you seem to have.

What can I say? You have me pegged.

[Guest Chouchou]

Two possibilities:

• He actually shares your views. This is possible; men are not identical. But it would certainly make him part of a minority.
• He tells you he shares your veiws because he knows what your reaction would be if he were to say otherwise. As a husband, I cannot fault a man for this...

he does share my views. i am positive of this. and i don't think it makes him part of a minority either. in psychology of women you also talk a lot about men, in particular how women's circumstances/roles in society affect men. in our society, it asserts that, sexually, men are what you make them. and when you put women out there as sex objects, it creates men who think about them in such a way. by changing this perception of women, you change men for the better.

I suppose that's possible, but it seems rather unlikely. I led a pretty sheltered life until my teenage years, but from my childhood I thought of things this way. Most men I've had discussions with about this seem to agree with me. So, as a man, I'll accept my own point of view in this matter in preference to yours.

i don't think this really hinders my thought train because i have to wonder if you were given any exposure to non-sexual nudity or the female body as having/being primarily for purposes other than sex (including and especially their sexual parts). regardless of how nice a little shelter your parents made for you, you did have to come out of it and society with all it's "norms" and stereotypes did hit you in the face. possibly even more than you yourself realize.

Yes, breasts have always been a big deal (no pun intended) (well, okay, maybe a little) in American society during my lifetime. But I never had a great fascination with breasts while growing up, so that aspect didn't really influence me too much. So this observation rather contradicts your assertion.

well it goes farther than breasts. that was just an example. in different cultures different things are considered sexy or arousing. that was the main point you should have taken from that.

why would God make it impossible for men to not have sexual thoughts/lust about women when he specifically tells you not to? doesn't that seem a bit like God is setting you up to fail? i don't think he does that.

[Guest Chouchou]

Assuming for a minute that you are 100% correct: Hooters is still taking advantage of this society, to attract customers by objectifying, packaging, and presenting the mammary glands of women for the viewing pleasure of their male clientelle.

"What's wrong with society" is surely a valid discussion, but no matter how it turns out, I'm thinking that Hooters is still the bad guy from an LDS perspective.

and how would you combat that (hooters and things like it i mean)? i would work to change society's view of nudity/sexuality/female bodies and make that less of a thrill for males.

certainly i do think hooters is tacky, but there are much worse things out there. if my child was taken to hooters or went with friends perhaps. i would definitely talk to them about it, and help them see why that is not the best choice for a night out on the town. but i wouldn't freak out over it.

[Vort]

i don't think this really hinders my thought train because i have to wonder if you were given any exposure to non-sexual nudity or the female body as having/being primarily for purposes other than sex (including and especially their sexual parts).

Wonder away. I am intimately famililar with my own upbringing, so I know whereof I speak.

why would God make it impossible for men to not have sexual thoughts/lust about women when he specifically tells you not to? doesn't that seem a bit like God is setting you up to fail? i don't think he does that.

Several points:

• I never said he did.
• Sexual thoughts are not synonymous with lust.
• God never tells us not to have sexual thoughts.
• That God would make men respond sexually to sexual stimuli is hardly surprising, nor does it contradict any of his commandments. God has also commanded people (women as well as men) to be modest in their dress. Our modern prophets have openly and repeatedly confirmed that one reason women ought to dress modestly is to aid the men in maintaining their purity of thought. That you might think this unfair or indicative of weakness in men is really of no importance.

[Vort]

i would work to change society's view of nudity/sexuality/female bodies and make that less of a thrill for males.

Why? Is there something wrong with men getting a thrill from the female body? Would you really seek to emasculate men so that they become more like women?

Are you a female version of Henry Higgins?

certainly i do think hooters is tacky, but there are much worse things out there.

For example, murder, child abuse, and beating someone into a coma are worse than Hooters. What of it? Those things are worse than shoplifting, too. Does that make shoplifting no big deal?

[Guest Chouchou]

Several points:

• I never said he did.
• Sexual thoughts are not synonymous with lust.
• God never tells us not to have sexual thoughts.
• That God would make men respond sexually to sexual stimuli is hardly surprising, nor does it contradict any of his commandments. God has also commanded people (women as well as men) to be modest in their dress. Our modern prophets have openly and repeatedly confirmed that one reason women ought to dress modestly is to aid the men in maintaining their purity of thought. That you might think this unfair or indicative of weakness in men is really of no importance.

you're very fond of lists.

when is a sexual thought not lusty? you don't have to be actively stalking and sexually obsessing over someone for it to qualify as lust. lust can be fleeting. and how many times have we heard in conference talks to ban sexual or unworthy thoughts from our minds?

and yes you can respond (and hopefully do respond) to sexual stimuli at the appropriate time. but it doesnt have to be everytime you see a bit of skin.

[Vort]

you're very fond of lists.

• You don't know this to be the case.
• Not everything I write is in a list.
• Fondness for lists, or a lack thereof, imply nothing about the original subject.
• My lists are never numbered.
• No list ever surpasses four items.

when is a sexual thought not lusty?

For example, sexual thoughts and desires of a righteous LDS husband toward his wife are not lustful.

you don't have to be actively stalking and sexually obsessing over someone for it to qualify as lust.

What do you suppose qualifies as a lustful thought?

lust can be fleeting. and how many times have we heard in conference talks to ban sexual or unworthy thoughts from our minds?

That would be never.

and yes you can respond (and hopefully do respond) to sexual stimuli at the appropriate time. but it doesnt have to be everytime you see a bit of skin.

You would have more credibility with me if you hadn't already admitted that you think men should take less pleasure in the female form.

[Guest Chouchou]

Why? Is there something wrong with men getting a thrill from the female body? Would you really seek to emasculate men so that they become more like women?

Are you a female version of Henry Higgins?

there is when it means that they aren't respecting it as they should.

so you think that being horny is masculine? does that make you a man or something? and just what are "women like" exactly? enlighten me. women have sexual desires just like men do. and sometimes they are very strong. but women act differently (in most cases) why? mainly because society treats women and their sexuality differently. though i will admit that that is changing in our society. and it's bringing with it some good and some bad.

For example, murder, child abuse, and beating someone into a coma are worse than Hooters. What of it? Those things are worse than shoplifting, too. Does that make shoplifting no big deal?

when did i say it was no big deal? i wouldn't be happy with my child, and i could see that as their start down a bad path. hence the talk with them. but i think teaching them lovingly will do more good than screaming and ranting at them.

[Vort]

there is when it means that they aren't respecting it as they should.

In what way does men getting a thrill from the female body mean or imply that "they aren't respecting it as they should"?

so you think that being horny is masculine?

I think that getting a thrill from the female body is masculine. Do you disagree?

does that make you a man or something?

No, it doesn't make me a man, it simply confirms my masculine identity.

and just what are "women like" exactly? enlighten me.

Women are like creatures who don't get a thrill from the female body.

women have sexual desires just like men do. and sometimes they are very strong. but women act differently (in most cases) why? mainly because society treats women and their sexuality differently.

Fascinating. What evidence can you produce that a woman's sexual response differs from a man's primarily due to societal influence? Any?

when did i say it was no big deal?

I inferred such from your statement that you "wouldn't freak out over" your children being taken to Hooters, which seemed clearly to imply that anyone who reacted more strongly than you would have been "freaking out".

but i think teaching them lovingly will do more good than screaming and ranting at them.

Pray tell, who suggested screaming and ranting at the children, or anyone else?

[Guest Chouchou]

In what way does men getting a thrill from the female body mean or imply that "they aren't respecting it as they should"?

I think that getting a thrill from the female body is masculine. Do you disagree?

No, it doesn't make me a man, it simply confirms my masculine identity.

Women are like creatures who don't get a thrill from the female body.

Fascinating. What evidence can you produce that a woman's sexual response differs from a man's primarily due to societal influence? Any?

I inferred such from your statement that you "wouldn't freak out over" your children being taken to Hooters, which seemed clearly to imply that anyone who reacted more strongly than you would have been "freaking out".

Pray tell, who suggested screaming and ranting at the children, or anyone else?

you forget about lesbians and bisexuals.

so you and your sexuality are defined by ...being a perv??? rephrase, plz.

and if a man looks at my breasts or butt or anything else and thinks something kinda dirty...i don't really feel respected much. i feel kinda creeped out. especially if he stares for longer than is necessary.....

well being a woman myself i seem a pretty good person to know that women do have strong sexual desires and that expressing those can be frowned up on in our society because people will say you're a slut or something. whereas lots of men like to brag about their sexual encounters (imagined or not), but it's just not a talking point for most women. it's more one of those "well i wouldn't have told anybody" types of things. and i was a psych major and i focused in gender, sexuality and relationships. the sexual responses of men and women really aren't that different underneath it all.

because screaming and ranting is what i meant by freaking out.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Chouchou

[prisonchaplain]

If I am not mistaken, Vort is arguing for modesty, and several are reacting against perceived narrow-mindedness, legalism, and artificial standards of judgment. Personally, I do not care how narrow-minded, legalistic, and artificial my standards of judgment are perceived to be, it was foolish at best for the chaperones to take middle schoolers to Hooters for lunch. I would have complained, and chances are that some of the more avante guard instructors would get to mock me as a prude, in the faculty lunch lounge.

[Vort]

I noticed you answered exactly none of my questions. Hmmm. I wonder why not?

you forget about lesbians and bisexuals.

What makes you think I forgot about them? Rather, when I say that "Women are like creatures who don't get a thrill from the female body", I am referring to the vast majority, not the 2% of sexual deviants.

How is this not obvious?

so you and your sexuality are defined by ...being a perv??? rephrase, plz.

I will not rephrase. But it looks like you consider a normal masculine reaction of thrill to a female body as "being a perv". Is this correct?

and if a man looks at my breasts or butt or anything else and thinks something kinda dirty...i don't really feel respected much. i feel kinda creeped out. especially if he stares for longer than is necessary.....

Can't blame you there. Any guy who ogles a typical, modestly clad woman is acting like a pig.

But if we're talking a Chouchou who is wearing that "cute" bikini bra that barely covers the areolae and leaves everything else bare along with the thong bottom that gives that nice camel toe look...well, if you take offense at men staring at your, um, assets, then frankly you're the idiot pig, not them.

When you dye your hair bright orange and spike it straight up, don't act surprised or offended when people stare at you. Same theory.

well being a woman myself i seem a pretty good person to know that women do have strong sexual desires

How often have you been a man?

and i was a psych major and i focused in gender, sexuality and relationships.

Sorry, but I am exactly the wrong person to try to impress with a psychology degree of any sort. You might as well have majored in voodoo with a minor in magical incantations.

the sexual responses of men and women really aren't that different underneath it all.

And you know this...how?

because screaming and ranting is what i meant by freaking out.

Before you brought it up, who had said anything about screaming and ranting? If the answer is "no one" (which it is), then why did you bring it up?

[LDSJewess]

Regarding the Chaplain (hate doing the quote because ot makes it harder to follow),

I do agree that parents should be notified as to exactly where their children are going. It would be important to me because I would like to maintain control over the rearing of my children.

But frankly, I would have been just as concerned over Hooters BECAUSE of the unhealthy food served there. I want to be sure my children follow habits of good nutrition and not wind up with an early death due t obesity, diabetes, cancer and heart disease. To me this is far worse for my children than them seeing a waitress wearing short shorts and a tight tank top.

As for Vort, we simply will need to agree to disagree. I do find that you seem to have an intense preoccupation with sex and the female body. Some of this may be natural in men I agree, but the way you are continously graphically describing the female anatomy borders on being obsessed and degrading toward women, and sorry that is not the norm of men. Perhaps adolescent boys and teens, but if your profile age is correct, you are not typical in your thinking and this kind of thinking does not make you more macho or masculine.

If you truly are offended or disgusted by anyone that does not fit into your standards of modesty, I suggest you stay off beaches, shopping malls and any public place that you could encounter an offensive immodest female. If you continue to completely shelter your children from viewing a human body, you can be assurred eventually curiosity will get the better of them and cause them to make incorrect and unhealthy choices. I think it would be far better to acknowledge the world for what it is and rather than judge it at every turn, use the energy to set a good example for yourself and spend time finding the beauty in the world and in life and not focus on the negative.

[Saldrin]

Shouldn't the feminist groups be trying to shut hooters down?

i know its random just saying....

[Vort]

As for Vort, we simply will need to agree to disagree.

This is the wording typically used to end conversations where one party presents no compelling arguments and doesn't like to consider the other party's arguments. But, okay. I agree to disagree.

I do find that you seem to have an intense preoccupation with sex and the female body.

From a discussion list thread you have figured this out about me? Impressive.

Some of this may be natural in men I agree, but the way you are continously graphically describing the female anatomy borders on being obsessed and degrading toward women

Please point to anything I have written that qualifies as a graphic description of the female anatomy and that is degrading.

Perhaps adolescent boys and teens, but if your profile age is correct, you are not typical in your thinking

Interesting. Do unqualified and unmerited personal insults count as "agreeing to disagree"?

and this kind of thinking does not make you more macho or masculine.

You misunderstand, thinking that I seek to impress you with my machoness or masculinity. You are mistaken. I do not care the least bit whether you or anyone else finds me macho. I do hope my wife thinks I'm sufficiently masculine, but seeing as how she doesn't read this list, nothing I say here will impress her one way or the other.

If you truly are offended or disgusted by anyone that does not fit into your standards of modesty, I suggest you stay off beaches, shopping malls and any public place that you could encounter an offensive immodest female.

LDSJewess, I'm not trying to be offensive but am completely sincere in asking you: Have you actually read what I have written? Because only the most inattentive or dull reader could possibly interpret what I have written as me being "offended or disgusted by anyone that does not fit into [my] standards of modesty".

If you continue to completely shelter your children from viewing a human body, you can be assurred eventually curiosity will get the better of them and cause them to make incorrect and unhealthy choices.

Thank you for your touching concern about my children. I feel pretty good about their spiritual and social state, though, so you can put your mind at ease.

I think it would be far better to acknowledge the world for what it is and rather than judge it at every turn, use the energy to set a good example for yourself and spend time finding the beauty in the world and in life and not focus on the negative.

For someone who is so against judging and finding negativity, you strike me as extremely judgmental and negative toward me.

[MarginOfError]

Regarding the Chaplain (hate doing the quote because ot makes it harder to follow),

I do agree that parents should be notified as to exactly where their children are going. It would be important to me because I would like to maintain control over the rearing of my children.

This is somewhat age dependent, but the people with the children need to have the flexibility to make decisions. As a scout leader, I would find a stipulation that I notify leaders of every place we go pretty inconvenient. Yes, I always create a travel plan, but I never put down what restaurant we'll eat at. If I did, I might often find myself changing the plan to accommodate dietary needs that vary from trip to trip based on who is attending. In many cases, I'm simply not familiar with the restaurants in the area I'll be at. I can give you a general frame work for how the trip will transpire, but I can't give you a minute by minute schedule.

But frankly, I would have been just as concerned over Hooters BECAUSE of the unhealthy food served there. I want to be sure my children follow habits of good nutrition and not wind up with an early death due t obesity, diabetes, cancer and heart disease. To me this is far worse for my children than them seeing a waitress wearing short shorts and a tight tank top.

One meal of unhealthy food isn't going to lead to anything you mention here. In fact, "unhealthy food" (barring acute poisons) are typically only unhealthy when consumed consistently and disproportionately to healthy foods.

As for Vort, we simply will need to agree to disagree. I do find that you seem to have an intense preoccupation with sex and the female body. Some of this may be natural in men I agree, but the way you are continously graphically describing the female anatomy borders on being obsessed and degrading toward women, and sorry that is not the norm of men. Perhaps adolescent boys and teens, but if your profile age is correct, you are not typical in your thinking and this kind of thinking does not make you more macho or masculine.

Wouldn't his adolescent and teenage description of boys be relevant to the discussion since it was adolescents and teens being taken to the Hooters restaurant to begin with?

If you truly are offended or disgusted by anyone that does not fit into your standards of modesty, I suggest you stay off beaches, shopping malls and any public place that you could encounter an offensive immodest female.

He already admitted he does.

If you continue to completely shelter your children from viewing a human body, you can be assurred eventually curiosity will get the better of them and cause them to make incorrect and unhealthy choices. I think it would be far better to acknowledge the world for what it is and rather than judge it at every turn, use the energy to set a good example for yourself and spend time finding the beauty in the world and in life and not focus on the negative.

There's very little evidence to suggest this. You can cite porn stars and prostitutes all you like, but those are the extremes of the distribution and do not reflect the general population. Kids raised as Vort suggests are no more or less likely to get into trouble than kids raised in the manner you suggest.

[Latter Days Guy]

So Vort you base your masculinity on getting sexually excited by the female body? Is that every single female you see gets you sexually excited? Do you walk around in a constant state of sexual arousal or do you lock yourself away in a room to limit yourself from those harlots who are tempting you in such sexual ways that you get exited by mealy just looking at a woman?