At One Point

[Winnie G]

At what point is it enough when it comes to a family member that is so hurtful that you have to cut them loose for your own sanity?

How much should you take?

[sgallan]

Welcome to my life. It is a personal decision but a workable answer is when it affects your saftey and sanity, and there is no real way to stay safe and sane if they are around. Or in my case when I had my ex arrested..... the saftey of my child being potentially compromised. The first go around with that one was my saftey and sanity.

[Lindy]

At what point is it enough when it comes to a family member that is so hurtful that you have to cut them loose for your own sanity?

How much should you take?

Winnie, I think it depends on your breaking point... how much you can handle for yourself... or how much you think is enough for others in the family. I echo Scott when he said "It is a personal decision but a workable answer is when it affects your saftey and sanity, and there is no real way to stay safe and sane if they are around" and that goes for not only yourself...but like sgallon had to do.... protect his child from potential harm.

Tough love is a hard thing to have to do.... but you have to decide for yourself when enough is enough and take action from that point. Doesn't mean you don't love them anymore.... it's self preservation... or preservation for someone else.

[Winnie G]

Ok well its like this,

My daughter is a real mess as some of you know.

Its not getting any better and she lashes out with venom when she calls or chats on line when she see I’m on.

My son in-law has had to tell her until this changes she cannot talk to her daughters, she says things that make my three-year-old granddaughter cry. “Your daddy stole you from me tell him to give you back to me” Etc….

She really enjoys telling me we will have another grandchild in the spring.

I am told we have to accept this man she is with eventually and I say “No we don’t”.

I ask her were in the world did she think we would? She is asking us to trust a man we only know as the men that she used to destroying your marriage.

Some creep she meet on line.

She has left behind a path of hurt and sham not to mention choices that she has made leveling her accountable to God. I tell her their called sin for a reason she knows better. She tells us he is investigating the church, witch is hogwash and will not white wash how we feel about his part in the painful looks on our granddaughters faces because their mother chosen to not be in their lives.

By the way, I call him (what’s his name) because it is less painful then to put a name to him. Right now she is acting like a stranger. What women in her right mind get pregnant by a man she hardly knows just months after giving birth to her last child?

Before she has even found a home for her self and a divorce.

People like that live on the other side of the tracks.

She was not raised to live on the other side of the tracks.

She looses it when I tell her, there will be no Sunday dinners at our home were this man will be invited, EVER, No family or Christmas’s celebrations or weddings. I don’t want him ever in my home, To me it would be like dancing with the devil in my living room.

When I told her that this guy starts yelling at me “that I will hear what he has to say because its his phone”. I say fine call me from a pay phone and hang up.

Were do these two get off. I do not know this woman she is not my daughter its like invasions of the body snatchers.

The braking point that left me crying most of the day last week was a chat on line.

I saved it to show her father when he came home.

She says:

i dont want anything to do with you or your husband you hurt me far more then i am hurting you and i got my court pappers today ***** %@#&^ up big time it is going to look relly bad on

him well i am done tc

(the spelling is off and a date on the papers)

winnie g says:

Since we chose as a family to be left out of these hate filled remarks you wish to fling at each other I don’t care how any one screwed up, or how it is

She says:

lol well once i get my kids and you no longer my mother legaly you wont legaly be grandparents and will have nothing to do with them

she says:

and because you gave them to **** the lawer said the most you would have would be once a month supervised visitation

I cut her off. I think I am to the point that its just too painful to read, talk or chat with her any more. I called one of my oldest sons that night; he works and is best friends with my son in-law.

I started to tell him what happened and it was as if I had a melt down, I sobbed to the point were I had to pass the phone off to my husband.

Later on the phone rang and my son asked to talk to me. He told me he spoke to my son in-law and he said “Mom it wont ever happen ***** will see to that. You will not be cut out of the girls lives, He loves you and dad and he said your part of his life and we are his family”.

Since this happened the Ensign came what a blessing and I swear its like it was meant for just me.

I found peace in the articles about families and grown sons and daughters, which chose lives that are not church standers.

I thought that leaving the lines open was the best thing but now I’m thinking I have to find some peace in my life. I did not know that it was a commandment to be happy.

The other thing is our bishop was to call a church court and then he was released I don’t know how far it went and he has moved since then. Our new bishop is so green he seemed lost when we spoke to him. He was looking things up as we rehashed what had been going on.

I emailed a friend in Edmonton and gave her the address my daughter gave me to forward her mail. She gave me the name of the stake president there so I can fallow though with that.

I’m calling my stake president here and giving him his name and see what happened and to find out what he has done and put it in his hands. My daughter is living in a member’s home she says and the church is helping her. I asked if her bishop was aware of her condition and her marriage and boyfriend. She skips right over that.

I’m worried that she is taking advantage of the church and is using them.

My son in-law asked if she was telling people that this baby is his.

What a mess, it has to end even for just a few months.

I cannot do this anymore; I am entitled to a life too.

When is the right time to cut and run?

[miztrniceguy]

Ok well its like this,

My daughter is a real mess as some of you know.

Its not getting any better and she lashes out with venom when she calls or chats on line when she see I’m on.

My son in-law has had to tell her until this changes she cannot talk to her daughters, she says things that make my three-year-old granddaughter cry. “Your daddy stole you from me tell him to give you back to me” Etc….

She really enjoys telling me we will have another grandchild in the spring.

I am told we have to accept this man she is with eventually and I say “No we don’t”.

I ask her were in the world did she think we would? She is asking us to trust a man we only know as the men that she used to destroying your marriage.

Some creep she meet on line.

She has left behind a path of hurt and sham not to mention choices that she has made leveling her accountable to God. I tell her their called sin for a reason she knows better. She tells us he is investigating the church, witch is hogwash and will not white wash how we feel about his part in the painful looks on our granddaughters faces because their mother chosen to not be in their lives.

By the way, I call him (what’s his name) because it is less painful then to put a name to him. Right now she is acting like a stranger. What women in her right mind get pregnant by a man she hardly knows just months after giving birth to her last child?

Before she has even found a home for her self and a divorce.

People like that live on the other side of the tracks.

She was not raised to live on the other side of the tracks.

She looses it when I tell her, there will be no Sunday dinners at our home were this man will be invited, EVER, No family or Christmas’s celebrations or weddings. I don’t want him ever in my home, To me it would be like dancing with the devil in my living room.

When I told her that this guy starts yelling at me “that I will hear what he has to say because its his phone”. I say fine call me from a pay phone and hang up.

Were do these two get off. I do not know this woman she is not my daughter its like invasions of the body snatchers.

The braking point that left me crying most of the day last week was a chat on line.

I saved it to show her father when he came home.

She says:

i dont want anything to do with you or your husband you hurt me far more then i am hurting you and i got my court pappers today ***** %@#&^ up big time it is going to look relly bad on

him well i am done tc

(the spelling is off and a date on the papers)

winnie g says:

Since we chose as a family to be left out of these hate filled remarks you wish to fling at each other I don’t care how any one screwed up, or how it is

She says:

lol well once i get my kids and you no longer my mother legaly you wont legaly be grandparents and will have nothing to do with them

she says:

and because you gave them to **** the lawer said the most you would have would be once a month supervised visitation

I cut her off. I think I am to the point that its just too painful to read, talk or chat with her any more. I called one of my oldest sons that night; he works and is best friends with my son in-law.

I started to tell him what happened and it was as if I had a melt down, I sobbed to the point were I had to pass the phone off to my husband.

Later on the phone rang and my son asked to talk to me. He told me he spoke to my son in-law and he said “Mom it wont ever happen ***** will see to that. You will not be cut out of the girls lives, He loves you and dad and he said your part of his life and we are his family”.

Since this happened the Ensign came what a blessing and I swear its like it was meant for just me.

I found peace in the articles about families and grown sons and daughters, which chose lives that are not church standers.

I thought that leaving the lines open was the best thing but now I’m thinking I have to find some peace in my life. I did not know that it was a commandment to be happy.

The other thing is our bishop was to call a church court and then he was released I don’t know how far it went and he has moved since then. Our new bishop is so green he seemed lost when we spoke to him. He was looking things up as we rehashed what had been going on.

I emailed a friend in Edmonton and gave her the address my daughter gave me to forward her mail. She gave me the name of the stake president there so I can fallow though with that.

I’m calling my stake president here and giving him his name and see what happened and to find out what he has done and put it in his hands. My daughter is living in a member’s home she says and the church is helping her. I asked if her bishop was aware of her condition and her marriage and boyfriend. She skips right over that.

I’m worried that she is taking advantage of the church and is using them.

My son in-law asked if she was telling people that this baby is his.

What a mess, it has to end even for just a few months.

I cannot do this anymore; I am entitled to a life too.

When is the right time to cut and run?

start by taking her off your chat list

[shanstress70]

Winnie, this sounds like a really trivial and simple answer to a complicated problem, but it may actually be an idea...

If I was in your position, I would tell your daughter that I will not listen to anything negative. "If you want to call and chat and see how the family is doing or let me know how you are doing, I will talk to you, but I will not allow you to slander me. The first ugly thing you say to me I will hang up, log out, or rip up the letter."

As far as the children go, I would tell her that I will not discuss that situation because that is between her, her husband, and their lawyers. If she brought it up anyway, I would give her one warning, then hang up if she persists. It is difficult, but sometimes you have to stay out of your grown childrens' affairs and let them make their decisions. You've given them the foundation and taught them what is right - the rest is up to them.

I would tell her that I love her and I always will because she is my daughter, but that I will not be hurt by her anymore. I would tell her that I will see her as long as she doesn't start the negativity, but I will not see her new guy because I don't approve of his morals or actions.

If you give her the requirements, then let her make the choice, you are not cutting her off from having a relationship with you. If she doesn't follow the rules, she is making that decision.

I choose to not allow negativity into my life anymore when I have the choice. This has really helped me live my life more peacefully. Hopefully it will be helpful to you as well. I am so sorry for what your daughter is putting you through - I can't imagine what it feels like to have your child treat you this way.

[Winnie G]

Its like night and day at times, I sent her photographs of her daughters first birthday.

I even made sure I cropped out my so-in-law just to make sure I was not making it any harder then it already was. The e-mailed me and thanked me for the photos and asked me how they were. I wrote her back saying the girls had the sniffles but that was going around I told her they were they bounce selves. Eating every thing that moved, that they must be in a growing spurt. That they were happy.

She was positive then two days later out of now were it started up again each time more worse then the last, until that last chat.

Have you read the new Engine, it was my God send it helped me get over a lot of my feelings.

I tried to reach her but its like any mothering gifts I have no longer work.

[shanstress70]

She was positive then two days later out of now were it started up again each time more worse then the last, until that last chat.

Perhaps try being there for her when she's positive that way, then when it goes downhill, quickly cut her off before she has a chance to spew any negativity. Of course make sure she knows when you cut her off that all she has to do is be cordial and you will resume your conversation. Don't allow her to bring you down, Winnie (anymore than you can possibly help, anyway). Keep your head up.

Just a suggestion...

[pushka]

Just a quick thought to add to what Shanstress has been saying, which I agree entirely with, btw.

It sounds as if your daughter is, perhaps, struggling to come to terms with her decisions herself, and is, therefore, allowing herself to be pulled in 2 directions..the one she knows is right, being civil with you and asking about her children, and the one she is currently heading down, feeling as if she has to stay with the man who has fathered her latest baby. You don't know it for sure, but they could be arguing over her positive remarks about her existing children and he may be putting pressure on her to be more negative. This sort of 'mind control' does happen in some relationships.

[shanstress70]

Just a quick thought to add to what Shanstress has been saying, which I agree entirely with, btw.

It sounds as if your daughter is, perhaps, struggling to come to terms with her decisions herself, and is, therefore, allowing herself to be pulled in 2 directions..the one she knows is right, being civil with you and asking about her children, and the one she is currently heading down, feeling as if she has to stay with the man who has fathered her latest baby. You don't know it for sure, but they could be arguing over her positive remarks about her existing children and he may be putting pressure on her to be more negative. This sort of 'mind control' does happen in some relationships.

Very true, but IMO this shouldn't have any impact on what Winnie chooses to do. What happens to us in life has a lot to do with the choices we make. I don't want to sound cold, but Winnie should not pay for her daughter's mistakes.

And Pushka, I'm not arguing with you here, as I don't think you're saying that Winnie should let her daughter bring her down. Just clearing up my point.

[pushka]

Hi Shanstress, don't worry I don't think you're arguing with me at all. I did find it difficult to put into words the thoughts I had about the above situation.

I agree that Winnie should not be paying for her daughter's mistakes and shouldn't allow her daughter's situation to bring her down.

I was just toying with thoughts about why this might be happening, so that Winnie might not feel quite as hurt by the comments her daughter has been making, but not saying that she should allow these comments to continue.

[Guest MrsS]

I wholeheartedly agree with Shantress and Pushka ~

I also want to bring up a possibility for her mood swings, i.e. she is positive one day then a few days later she is negative and blaming you and the family.

She could have related her positive phone conversation with the jerk, and he went into a rage. This is control, believe me he does have her in his control - yet she talked to you and he didn't know about it, thus he could not control what was said, at least by her. She can not blame him, at least not yet, for her being raged at, for his getting angry. Thus you and the family are to blame. She is repeating what he has been saying to her.

I know, I was controlled. For 25 years I was controlled, though my first husband didn't start out with the anger and rage at first, that came about 5 years later. I was never allowed to make phone calls on my own, he had to be there.

Winnie, I was raised by very loving parents. There was no subtle mind, emotion control in my upbringing. My parents never argued or fought in front of us kids (7 of us), or within hearing distance. My father was not a control freak, nor was my mother. What is odd - peculiar odd- is that even though they were not LDS, nor were they of any church at all, they raised us to have good principles. They taught us good principles, then allowed us to make our own choices and then they enforced the consequences. So why did I get involved with such a man? I don't know. I never could afford to go to professional counseling to "find" out the why's and wherefore's. After a few years, I put those questions on a shelf and left them there. I guess I finally realized that knowing those answers would not help my now.

You are beating yourself up over what your daughter has CHOSEN to do. I know that the "why did she do this?", and the "where did I go wrong?" is going to be hounding you ~ you will have to stop these thoughts. Put them on the Altar, offer them up to God, and when He sees that you are ready for the answer, He will make it known to you.

As hard as it will be, do as Shantress suggests. Let her know that when the negativity and hurtfulness starts you will hang up. After the first warning, I would give no more warning. Just very gently put the receiver down. IF you have caller ID and see that it is from her ~ do no answer. Do not let the answering machine answer, turn it off. There is no way she is going to be UN-negative after you hang up on her. Give her a full day to cool her jets.

I also suggest that you continue to council with YOUR Bishop, and that YOU continue to ask for and receive Priesthood blessings. Put your daughter's name and the Jerks name in on the Temple rolls.

When I divorced the control freak ~ the hardest thing for me to do was to ask Heavenly Father to bless him. To keep him safe and to soften his heart. I put his name on the Temple Prayer Roll and then I earnestly asked Heavenly Father to help me to be sincere in my requests about him.

I am praying for you Winnie, for your family and for this jerk in your life. You are loved by many, and we all are pitching for you.

[Winnie G]

I hear you all and at first we left the door open for her telling her she has a home to come home to even with her 100’s of miles away from us. We told her you know were home is.

At first we asked her not to call after nine because she would call after we would be in bed and be nasty leaving us up all night.

This worked for a wile now it’s the hurtful painful nasty remarks that has us saying OK that’s it.

Some were along the line we have to save our own sanity.

Today wile sitting out side my neighbor came over with her new born and sat in the swing enjoying the breeze. Her husband was helping mine take down our fence. We are selling it now before fall comes and its frozen in the ground when we have to move.

I asked her if my daughter sent back the MP3 player she barrowed from her husband for the trip she never came back from. She said she had talked to her.

I started to cry and she tried to comfort me. She told me my daughter had lost the baby.

She was asked not to tell me. How cruel is that! I do not know who this woman is. She is not the women I raised. It makes me want to run from house to house and rip out every one’s internet so their children could not be caught up in the dark places it holds.

[Dr T]

Winnie,

I don't know you and I apologize if this is putting you on the spot, and I'm going to ask it anyway. You seem more stressed recently. Are there major stressors in your life right now? I mean more than usual? Has there been major changes? Just worried about you.

Dr. T

[Winnie G]

Geee my husband is retiring medically in five months. We are building a house 100’s of miles from were we live, and our daughter has gone off her nut.

Other then that just peachy :)

[Dr T]

Makes sense. Sorry to put you on the spot.

[Winnie G]

Last night I called a dear old friend who was in my life when my daughter was born.

I smile when she calls my older boys by the names they went by back then like (Johnny)

No, I never had a Johnny but by their request it stopped and they are now (John)

Hearing her call them by those names sent my mind filled with memories of them as little boys and how kind they were and always played with her one of son who has downs even though he was older and could play rougher they saw past that. She has never forgotten them as anything other then that.

Her youngest and my daughter were thumb-sucking buddies.

She called to let me know an old friend of ours back in the ward were we use to live in had died. She told me she took it very hard since we had lost two friends up to this point in our lives one to an accident and the other to cancer. She said it came to her ‘I still have winnie,” I told her “I’m not going any were”.

She said I sounded more at peace concerning my daughter and what had happened since we spoke last?

I told her about the last painful talk with my daughter and that I wrote the stake president here asking him to call the stake president were my daughter lives on our behalf. I also as wrote the SP were my daughter lives as well.

That since reading this months Ensign articles magazine Families are forever and so is parenthood and Breaking the chains of sin. Those articles felt like they had been written just for us.

Families are forever and parenthood is to brought such peace to us and yet I did not realizes it until she said I sounded better.

She helped me remember my daughter as the little girl she once was and that I had raised my children in the gospel and thought them right from wrong. I did my job but this is free agency comes in to play.

I have been blessed from this months ensign and as a family we have put the principles in to action that was taught in the article.

Counting your blessings every day has become a real every day way of making though the day. My dear friend is one of them, she may live on the west cost but friendships like these last a lifetime and are counted every time.

[BenRaines]

Winnie,

I am curious. Why write the Stake President? Isn't there a Bishop where she lives. She is under the stewardship of the Bishop. Why not have your Bishop call the Bishop where she lives.

Ben Raines

[Marsha]

Winnie,

I am curious. Why write the Stake President? Isn't there a Bishop where she lives. She is under the stewardship of the Bishop. Why not have your Bishop call the Bishop where she lives.

Ben Raines

And I have to ask this: Why call them? When her records are sent there should be something in there about the reason that she has moved? I can understan the hurt that you have Winnie, but I really don't understand what sounds like "tattling."

Marsha

[Palerider]

there are no notes with church records about why someone moved....all you can do is make a request that the new Bishop calls you......

[Winnie G]

One-The bishop that was dealing with my daughter, was released and has moved.

The new bishop when meeting with us, he was looking things up he is soooo green.

Nice but Green.

Two- Our SP here was the YSA bishop and knows us very well, I’m a YSA adviser here.

My daughter is suffering from serious delayed postpartum depression an is refusing treatment.

Our bishop was calling a church court when she bolted and left her children with us.

He hoped that it would give her a chance to really understand the consequence of her actions and if needs be released her from her covenants so she could at some point could start anew?

Three- Call Yes I did, call answer no reply. The longer she goes with out treatment the worse it gets.

Four- It is not tattling, she is receiving help from the church and I am concerned for her safety and for the members she has been placed with.

Hearing about postpartum depression or seeing Andrea Yates on the news and dealing with it first hand is nothing like you ever thought it could be. This is not the baby blues.

Watching my daughter flush her life away ending her marriage and running away to a man she met on a internet peep show who is 13 years older then her and makes bikers look good. He controls her every move by a Tec massages an cell phone.

He is dangerous and every day becomes a nightmare.

The only way I can deal with this right now is by handing it over to people who can help her first hand. I’m 100’s of miles away with my hands tided.

You do what you have to do.

[Palerider]

If I were the new Bishop.......I would try to call the old Bishop and have a chat with him.......

[Winnie G]

I hoped he would but there is a snag the old bishop has gone to teach at a university over seas.