As man is, god once was...

[Jennarator]

A better example would be that 1+1=2 is only true in base 10. But in other bases, that is not the case... such as in base 2 (aka binary) 1+1=10

Jennarator... consider your last post laughed, lol.

When I read this thread title, I immediately remembered - or thought I remembered, this same sentence "as man is, God once was, and as God is, man can be" from a scripture mastery or somewhere in the scriptures. I could be remembering wrong since I can't find it in my scriptures, lol. Maybe I'm remembering from a lesson at some point. But I do know when I heard it, it made perfect sense to me.

More math....

[prisonchaplain]

OK...here's the math that traditionalists are accustomed to, when it comes to perfection.

God is perfection, which might be represented by infinity. We might say we are progressing towards perfection, or godhood. However, let us say that we are making good strides, and every time period (whatever length it is) we get halfway closer to infinity. You will quickly see that we never arrive. This is how we perceive humanity's attempt to reach godhood.

We are satisfied to attain the glory He has for us, knowing we shall become the judges of angels, that we shall reign with him, that yes, we shall see as he sees. Yet, we never expect to become what He is. It seems like hubris for us.

And yet, I have come to appreciate the LDS suggestions that God wants this for us, that the concept of "child of God" would seem to lead to this, and that being made in God's image may mean much more than we thought.

So, it's quite a mind-blower to understand both perspectives, and to see beauty in each. Alas, only one is right however. :-)

[Vort]

OK...here's the math that traditionalists are accustomed to, when it comes to perfection.

PC, what do traditionalists make of Matthew 5:48?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Can we become perfect in certain things now? Yes. For instance, "1 + 1 =2" is a perfect math answer.

As we learn, we become more perfect in many ways. In this life as mortals, we will not become perfect. However, as we strive our best, in the resurrection Christ will perfect us, so we will know all things and be perfect in all things.

Even in that example though, you did not come up with the number system yourself and you learned that fact from someone else, so we can't really claim that knowledge as our own anymore than we would be able to claim the glory of God if we were to 'learn' that.

My point is, we easily can say that we "know" facts and "learn" facts as if we did it ourselves but can't understand the concept of how accomplishments of God, and His God etc. could become "ours".

[rameumptom]

But once we obtain the knowledge it IS our own. That is the difference between knowledge and stuff. If I own a car, you can't own the same car and use it at the same time. That God gives us knowledge through a variety of means simply means we can use that knowledge to perfect ourselves, if we so choose to do so.

Yes, 1 + 1 = 2 is correct in standard math. That others suggested imaginary numbers or base2 does not negate the point I was making. They were just distractions. It just means I have to clarify a little bit more the rules upon which the statement is made- Given base10 and the set of real numbers: 1 + 1 = 2

Unless someone else has another meaningless distractor to toss in, it should be a perfect solution.

The point is: we can be perfect in many things now. And given time, knowledge, ability and desire, we can become fully perfect in all things.

[prisonchaplain]

PC, what do traditionalists make of Matthew 5:48?

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The command is given in the context of Jesus' admonition for us to love our enemies. This seems impossible, and yet Jesus says we are to do it...to be perfect, as the Father is perfect. Within the context of the Beautitudes, we see no reason to to presume this commandment suggests that we will some day be Gods.

[Vort]

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The command is given in the context of Jesus' admonition for us to love our enemies. This seems impossible, and yet Jesus says we are to do it...to be perfect, as the Father is perfect. Within the context of the Beautitudes, we see no reason to to presume this commandment suggests that we will some day be Gods.

Is it possible for us to be perfect, even as the Father is perfect? If so, what does that mean?

[RipplecutBuddha]

OK...here's the math that traditionalists are accustomed to, when it comes to perfection.

God is perfection, which might be represented by infinity. We might say we are progressing towards perfection, or godhood. However, let us say that we are making good strides, and every time period (whatever length it is) we get halfway closer to infinity. You will quickly see that we never arrive. This is how we perceive humanity's attempt to reach godhood.

We are satisfied to attain the glory He has for us, knowing we shall become the judges of angels, that we shall reign with him, that yes, we shall see as he sees. Yet, we never expect to become what He is. It seems like hubris for us.

And yet, I have come to appreciate the LDS suggestions that God wants this for us, that the concept of "child of God" would seem to lead to this, and that being made in God's image may mean much more than we thought.

So, it's quite a mind-blower to understand both perspectives, and to see beauty in each. Alas, only one is right however. :-)

Well, perhaps there is a way that both can be correct. On the one hand, we do believe God wants us to become as he is, however we do not believe we will ever match God in glory, nor that we can ever exceed him. Even in our idea of Celestial glory, we will ever worship him as our Father, as he will still (and always) be the source of all that we are, regardless of how much growth we experience personally.

As such, I really appreciate your 'half-step' analogy as I see it fits rather nicely within another common LDS belief, though not expressly scripturall, that God himself worships the God/Father that created and glorified him, making us the next link in an eternal chain.

[Vort]

Btw, PC, my questions are sincere. I'm not attempting to lead you down the garden path. I rarely have the chance to dialog with an informed member of another religion who gives thoughtful replies, so I'm taking advantage.

While I'm at it: What did Paul mean in Romans 8:16-17, when he spoke of us being "joint-heirs with Christ"? In what sense are we joint-heirs with the Lord? Is not Paul specifically equating us with Christ under the Father in these verses?

For the record, I don't particularly care to convert anyone to the idea that "We Can Become Gods!" I believe the idea, but I also believe it does not mean what too many careless Latter-day Saints claim that it means, and that it does mean something beyond what we're now able to see. I suspect that if I understood it clearly and could explain it clearly to you, you would agree with it, too.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Vort

[MarginOfError]

A better example would be that 1+1=2 is only true in base 10. But in other bases, that is not the case... such as in base 2 (aka binary) 1+1=10

That depends on if you're arena of debate is in the addition of number or in the representation of numbers.

Mathematically in the real numbers, 1 + 1 = 2 in base 10 is congruent to 1 + 1 = 10 in base 2. But they are not the same with respect to semiotics.

[lyolee]

Hi, I've recently had a discussion with someone who had an issue with this statement. The statement is,

'As man is, God once was. As God is, Man may become.'

I personally know very little about this statement, only that it was recorded words form the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Her problem with this is that, "God is God because he is perfect. How can something, like us who is not perfect, become perfect?"

Also, she has heard that in our faith, 'Jesus and Satan are Brothers', which is of course causing a lot of skepticism. Is this true? In a way, I think yes. We are all Spirit children of the same God, but what is different about Christ? he being the 'only begotten son'. What is the difference between being 'the only begotten son' and being 'spirit children'? Would it be saying the same thing if I said 'we are Christ's brother'? (not that I ever would).

I've done some research into these questions, but am unable to produce time to do enough research. regardless, I am praying and reading scriptures. perhaps posting this thread will speed up the proccess.

Hi,

I was just passing through, and havnt read the entire thread yet, sorry.

Those notions that God was a man born of woman, yet before Jesus Christ, was not from Joseph Smith at all, but of the Utah Polygamers, of which Joseph Smith had nothing to do. Nor section 132 ie. vol 5:xxxiii was mearly second hand at the time that william clayton bore witness of it under oath 1874 or so: UTAH. Joseph Smith found innocent of the origination of the teaching of: Polygamy. and Man Gods.

lyolee.

[LDSJewess]

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The command is given in the context of Jesus' admonition for us to love our enemies. This seems impossible, and yet Jesus says we are to do it...to be perfect, as the Father is perfect. Within the context of the Beautitudes, we see no reason to to presume this commandment suggests that we will some day be Gods.

Chaplain,

I think this topic is perhaps one of the most distinct differences between the LDS church and mainstream Christianity.

And some Christians that do not fully understand this are those that think the LDS church is false or even cultish.

In reality, yes LDS believers do believe that we are sent to earth to learn and be a a state of progression to become like God. To become perfect as our father in heaven is perfect. I believe Jesus walked the earth also be be the example of this. I kind of think of him as the big brother who already accomplished what his little brothers and sisters had not yet matured and prgreessed enough to become. Remember Jesus healed people, raised the dead, performed many miracles and he said" "These things also shall you do also." Now of course he was saying this to a throng of people who had not yet progressed to a thorough understanding of this.

Before the church was restored and when Christianity was under Roman rule, (no separation of church and state back then), it was considered blasphemous to even consider we could speak directly go God, no less become like God. What a complete mess that would have been to the rules of the Roman Empire if the citizens who were subject to the Emperors rule actually believed they could progress to become like God.

The important thing to know is that we must remian humble and open to the teachings that will allow us to progress. I expect this will be a very long progression. We understand that progression takes a lifetime and beyond. We are not believing that we are just going to pray and read scriptures and go to church and suddenly wake up and become perfect as God. But the end result over much time and progression is not only possible but probable. I believe that is Heavenly Fathers ultimate plan, but it is in his timing, not ours.

[prisonchaplain]

Is it possible for us to be perfect, even as the Father is perfect? If so, what does that mean?

In the context of the passage, being perfect as He is meant that we would love our enemies. How is that possible...with God all things are possible. We love them with the love He fills us with.

[lyolee]

Is it possible for us to be perfect, even as the Father is perfect? If so, what does that mean?

Vort,

what do you mean by 'perfect' ? what do you mean when YOU use the term 'perfect'.

lyolee

lds.

[prisonchaplain]

Btw, PC, my questions are sincere. I'm not attempting to lead you down the garden path. I rarely have the chance to dialog with an informed member of another religion who gives thoughtful replies, so I'm taking advantage.

We agree much more than we disagree on this forum...so you have my trust. Well...even if we disagreed more, you've demonstrated sincerity as far as I am concerned.

While I'm at it: What did Paul mean in Romans 8:16-17, when he spoke of us being "joint-heirs with Christ"? In what sense are we joint-heirs with the Lord? Is not Paul specifically equating us with Christ under the Father in these verses?

I'll give you the casual answer, then look up the verses and give you a more thoughtful one later. BUT, I can remember that old chorus...

I'm so glad I'm a part of the family of God

I've been washed in the fountain, cleansed by his blood

Joint heirs with Jesus as we travel this sod

I'm so glad I'm a part of the family of God

So we know this phrase, and use it freely. We understand that we will judge angels, and that we will "rule and reign with Christ." We inherit the Kingdom.

We just have never conceived of this passages addressing our created nature verses Christ, being the only begotten Son of God. As others have said, we believe Christ was not created out of nothing, but is co-eternal with the Father. We, on the other hand, were created out of nothing, and so had a definite start point.

With these beliefs in mind, we would never think to draw out of those verses you mention any hint that our very nature might become what Jesus is. On the other hand, I can see why you would do so.

[Seminarysnoozer]

But once we obtain the knowledge it IS our own. That is the difference between knowledge and stuff. If I own a car, you can't own the same car and use it at the same time. That God gives us knowledge through a variety of means simply means we can use that knowledge to perfect ourselves, if we so choose to do so.

Yes, 1 + 1 = 2 is correct in standard math. That others suggested imaginary numbers or base2 does not negate the point I was making. They were just distractions. It just means I have to clarify a little bit more the rules upon which the statement is made- Given base10 and the set of real numbers: 1 + 1 = 2

Unless someone else has another meaningless distractor to toss in, it should be a perfect solution.

The point is: we can be perfect in many things now. And given time, knowledge, ability and desire, we can become fully perfect in all things.

I think that people perceive perfection out of grasp because they believe that knowledge has to be obtained by oneself. That we have to somehow come up with it ourselves. When in reality there is very little of what we know, even in this life, that we came up with on our own, it is mostly obtained from someone or somewhere else. What we inherit, if worthy enough to receive it (not come up with it ourselves) is all that God has, all the perfection, all the experience, all the knowledge.

The more one thinks they have to somehow do it on their own, without Christ's help the more they limit how far they can actually go. An inheritance is given, not made from scratch. There is a mind block, I think, as to the possibility of perfection if one thinks it has to be worked out individually. Our worthiness has to be worked out individually, but the glory is shared.

[bytor2112]

I think of being perfect as doing your very best at all times. Kind of like when a coach urges his football team to be perfect....perfect execution, play to the whistle blows, etc. As a Latter Day Saint being perfect could mean:

1. Pray twice daily

2. Study the scriptures daily

3. Keep and honor your covenants.

4. Pay an honest tithe.

5. Do your home teaching.

6. Hold Family home evening.

7. Attend the Temple regularly.

8. Forgive as we have been forgiven.

9. Have charity.

10. Love one another.

Rather than doing just some things....do all things. Be perfect in your efforts. Strive to do your best. Don't become complacent.

[lyolee]

I think of being perfect as doing your very best at all times. Kind of like when a coach urges his football team to be perfect....perfect execution, play to the whistle blows, etc. As a Latter Day Saint being perfect could mean:

1. Pray twice daily

2. Study the scriptures daily

3. Keep and honor your covenants.

4. Pay an honest tithe.

5. Do your home teaching.

6. Hold Family home evening.

7. Attend the Temple regularly.

8. Forgive as we have been forgiven.

9. Have charity.

10. Love one another.

Rather than doing just some things....do all things. Be perfect in your efforts. Strive to do your best. Don't become complacent.

Jesus Christ.

To: God, in the name of Jesus Christ.

(I do not believe that Jesus is Heavenly Father who is God, but that Jesus is still the son of God in all things. fyi.)

lyolee

lds

[lyolee]

I think of being perfect as doing your very best at all times. Kind of like when a coach urges his football team to be perfect....perfect execution, play to the whistle blows, etc. As a Latter Day Saint being perfect could mean:

1. Pray twice daily

2. Study the scriptures daily

3. Keep and honor your covenants.

4. Pay an honest tithe.

5. Do your home teaching.

6. Hold Family home evening.

7. Attend the Temple regularly.

8. Forgive as we have been forgiven.

9. Have charity.

10. Love one another.

Rather than doing just some things....do all things. Be perfect in your efforts. Strive to do your best. Don't become complacent.

Is this a 'perfect' list? of, in other words, a list to 'perfect', or.... to BE 'perfect' by doing the list 'perfectly', or... believing on the name of Jesus Christ perfectly (NT + 3 NE), or... a 'perfect' church attendance requirment, or... 'perfect' tithe since baptismal date, etc. ~~~~

lyolee

lds

Edited June 9, 2011 by lyolee
... it was going on and on and on. So I stopped.

[bytebear]

I don't think it has to do with a task list of perfect deeds. I understand that "be perfect" can be interpreted as "become complete" which really means we need to strive for what will complete us and prepare us for the next life. Humility, charity, sacrifice, love... all of those things prepare our spirit for celestial glory. Some tangible covenants also prepare us: baptism, weekly sacrament, temple attendance and marriage come to mind.

[bytor2112]

Is this a 'perfect' list? of, in other words, a list to 'perfect', or.... to BE 'perfect' by doing the list 'perfectly', or... believing on the name of Jesus Christ perfectly (NT + 3 NE), or... a 'perfect' church attendance requirment, or... 'perfect' tithe since baptismal date, etc. ~~~~

lyolee

lds

No....just an example. We are led by a Prophet and we are admonished to do these things and others so that we may "become" like our Savior.

[ruthiechan]

Christ was perfect because he was without sin. I'm sure He, at some point, measured a table leg incorrectly and ended up with a wobbly table. That kind of mistake is not a sin. Sin is when you break the commandments of God.

[Vort]

Christ was perfect because he was without sin. I'm sure He, at some point, measured a table leg incorrectly and ended up with a wobbly table. That kind of mistake is not a sin. Sin is when you break the commandments of God.

Such lines cannot easily be drawn, I think. Suppose Jesus mismeasured a table leg while building a table on order from someone. Then suppose the mismeasured table leg was the root of an accident that caused injury. Jesus might well be held legally responsible for the injury. Would he not, at least to some degree, also be morally responsible for the injury caused by his neglect?

[ruthiechan]

Such lines cannot easily be drawn, I think. Suppose Jesus mismeasured a table leg while building a table on order from someone. Then suppose the mismeasured table leg was the root of an accident that caused injury. Jesus might well be held legally responsible for the injury. Would he not, at least to some degree, also be morally responsible for the injury caused by his neglect?

You are supposing that Christ would do the dishonest thing and sell/give the defect table to someone. That reaction would be sinful. However, this being Christ he would probably just say, oops, and fix it before passing it off to the intended owner.

[Vort]

You are supposing that Christ would do the dishonest thing and sell/give the defect table to someone. That reaction would be sinful. However, this being Christ he would probably just say, oops, and fix it before passing it off to the intended owner.

And if he didn't notice the mismeasured table leg until after the accident happened? Such "honest mistakes" are brought to a jury all the time.