Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God

[Universeman]

I found this book Biocosm at the library, the author makes a pretty dang interesting scientific hypothesis which basically mirrors our doctrine of our potential to become gods and create new universes in an infinitely large multiverse. To me this is yet another testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel; the quote is the implication of his theory.

BIOCOSM-The New Scientific Theory of Evolution: Intelligent Life Is the Architect of the Universe. What is humankind’s place in the universe? That fundamental question underlies both scientific inquiry and millennia of religious thought. The traditional answer of science is that life and human intelligence are of no cosmic consequence but merely the random outcome of the interplay of natural forces. Mainstream religions answer the same question in many different ways but most share the view that the mind of the Creator of the universe is ultimately inaccessible to mortal minds. BIOCOSM challenges both viewpoints and suggests that the emergence of life and mind is a cosmic imperative encoded in the basic laws of nature and, further, that highly evolved intelligence will eventually play the key role in reproducing the cosmos.

The author of Biocosm cited this article and from a gospel point of view it states that heavenly Father would by definition be an extraterrestrial intelligence which i thought was pretty interesting.

Michael Shermer Shermer’s Last Law

Edited July 11, 2011 by estradling75
Copyright issues

[Seminarysnoozer]

I found this book Biocosm at the library, the author makes a pretty dang interesting scientific hypothesis which basically mirrors our doctrine of our potential to become gods and create new universes in an infinitely large multiverse. To me this is yet another testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel; the quote is the implication of his theory.

BIOCOSM-The New Scientific Theory of Evolution: Intelligent Life Is the Architect of the Universe. What is humankind’s place in the universe? That fundamental question underlies both scientific inquiry and millennia of religious thought. The traditional answer of science is that life and human intelligence are of no cosmic consequence but merely the random outcome of the interplay of natural forces. Mainstream religions answer the same question in many different ways but most share the view that the mind of the Creator of the universe is ultimately inaccessible to mortal minds. BIOCOSM challenges both viewpoints and suggests that the emergence of life and mind is a cosmic imperative encoded in the basic laws of nature and, further, that highly evolved intelligence will eventually play the key role in reproducing the cosmos.

The author of Biocosm cited this article and from a gospel point of view it states that heavenly Father would by definition be an extraterrestrial intelligence which i thought was pretty interesting.

Michael Shermer Shermer’s Last Law

I think it is interesting how the light of Christ that we all have to some degree or another speaks truth to our soul. When the rest of the truth is not recognized our brain tries to make sense of the little light inside of us, to give us a "logical" explanation for what we naturally feel and spiritually know. We all inherently try to find truth, the carnal mind will try to find it in carnal things and the spiritual mind will try to find it in spiritual things. ... that is the test we face.

[FanOf31]

I've always thought God could be a super advanced race/being. This thread is very interesting to me.

[Universeman]

I think it is interesting how the light of Christ that we all have to some degree or another speaks truth to our soul. When the rest of the truth is not recognized our brain tries to make sense of the little light inside of us, to give us a "logical" explanation for what we naturally feel and spiritually know. We all inherently try to find truth, the carnal mind will try to find it in carnal things and the spiritual mind will try to find it in spiritual things. ... that is the test we face.

I’m not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me Snoozer

In Richard Dawkins the God Delusion (a wonderful book which in an odd way strongly agrees with the Mormon view of God, of course Dawkins is completely ignorant of this fact), chapter 6 asks the question if our sense of morality (or light of Christ) has a Darwinian origin, which in fact it does. I find this concept especially intriguing because it means that our brains have been hardwired with the light of Christ through the process of evolution, what an amazing concept! These studies also indicate that all humans have the same sense of right and wrong regardless of nationality or upbringing.

If our moral sense, like our sexual desire, is indeed rooted deep in our Darwinian past, predating religion, we should expect that research on the human mind would reveal some moral universals, crossing geographical and cultural barriers, and also, crucially, religious barriers. The Harvard biologist Marc Hauser, in his book Moral Minds: How Nature Designed our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong, has enlarged upon a fruitful line of thought experiments originally suggested by moral philosophers. Hauser's study will serve the additional purpose of introducing the way moral philosophers think. A hypothetical moral dilemma is posed, and the difficulty we experience in answering it tells us something about our sense of right and wrong. Where Hauser goes beyond the philosophers is that he actually does statistical surveys and psychological experiments, using questionnaires on the Internet, for example, to investigate the moral sense of real people. From the present point of view, the interesting thing is that most people come

to the same decisions when faced with these dilemmas, and their agreement over the decisions themselves is stronger than their ability to articulate their reasons. This is what we should expect if we have a moral sense which is built into our brains, like our sexual instinct or our fear of heights or, as Hauser himself prefers to say, like our capacity for language (the details vary from culture to culture, but the underlying deep structure of grammar is universal). As we shall see, the way people respond to these moral tests, and their inability to articulate their reasons, seems largely independent of their religious beliefs or lack of them. The message of Hauser's book, to anticipate it in his own words, is this: 'Driving our moral judgments is a universal moral grammar, a faculty of the mind that evolved over millions of years to include a set of principles for building a range of possible moral systems. As with language, the principles that make up our moral grammar fly beneath the radar of our awareness.' (Dawkins, pg. 219)

In a recent study of the effects of powerful magnetic fields on specific regions of the brain, MIT scientists were able to switch off the sense of right and wrong in test subjects. This is further evidence that we have been hard wired with a common sense of morality which is the same for all humans. Magnets held to the head could switch off our sense of right and wrong | Mail Online

New from Hasbro, the morality helmet, have fun turning off your sense of morality or watch what you friends are capable of doing with out a sense of Morality, fun for all ages! Warning has caused cancer in lab rats in California.

The point that I really want to drive home is that Heavenly Father is a God only in the sense that he is far more advanced mentally and technologically then we can imagine, but because he is not of a terrestrial origin he is by definition an extraterrestrial Intelligence (ETI) and he is an animal, like were are who has advanced to the point of having the qualities of deity. I see no shame in recognizing the fact that we are animals who are capable of creating universes, life and consciousness itself. Heavenly father is a real physical male human who is the most advanced form of life which can possibly exist, we are atheists of any other description of God. We do not believe in a supernatural God of no substance who is an uncreated creator and who created the universe out of nothing.

How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.' A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths (from A Pale Blue Dot by Carl Sagan).

As Latter Day Saints we have an understanding of the universe as reveled by revelation and science is infinitely larger and more fantastic than Carl Sagan could have imagined! What has been revealed to us through modern revelation and by science in no way diminishes my awe and love of our Heavenly Father. Methodological materialism = no threat to spirituality. Methodological materialism = good scientific assumption. All Mormons should embrace scientific discoveries with an open mind and a sure knowledge that if there is an apparent contradiction between them it is due to our limited understanding of the universe and how the plan of salvation fits into it and not because there is any real conflict.

[prisonchaplain]

From a non-LDS perspective, it is this very idea--that God could be an advanced being, and that we could simply be transforming into the same, that I find troubling. The traditional teaching that God is absolutely alone in his perfection, in his eternal nature, and in what He is, where as we are created by Him, out of nothing, destined to great, but not to be Gods, does not allow for an ET to make himself a God to us. He is the God of the universe.

I suppose the LDS belief can be exhilarating, but it also seems, again from my non-LDS perspective, to make God uncomfortably smaller, and us uncomfortably bigger. Some might suggest that my feeling just indicates that I am not yet prepared from the restored gospel. Perhaps so. I reckon many raised in traditional churches would feel the same as I.

[Guest Sachi001]

@Universeman

I think when you put HF in the perspective of universal cosmology of being an animal (i.e. homo sapien) and scientist as part of Godhood. Then your apt to raise some eyebrows among the Christian community even some LDS. They do not understand the concept in relation to King Follet Doctrine by JS, and is very foreign toward them. Especially in light of their concept of other Christian sects being taught Ex Nihilo.

[Guest Sachi001]

From a non-LDS perspective, it is this very idea--that God could be an advanced being, and that we could simply be transforming into the same, that I find troubling. The traditional teaching that God is absolutely alone in his perfection, in his eternal nature, and in what He is, where as we are created by Him, out of nothing, destined to great, but not to be Gods, does not allow for an ET to make himself a God to us. He is the God of the universe.

I suppose the LDS belief can be exhilarating, but it also seems, again from my non-LDS perspective, to make God uncomfortably smaller, and us uncomfortably bigger. Some might suggest that my feeling just indicates that I am not yet prepared from the restored gospel. Perhaps so. I reckon many raised in traditional churches would feel the same as I.

Yes I know that LDS thinking of non belief in Ex Nihilo must be confusing. However we do not believe that this universe was created out of nothing. That would alter the concept of Godhood. That in itself must be difficult to understand, and it's relation to King Follet Discourse by J. Smith.

This is all also in relation to the Godhood which we believe HF, Christ and the HG are all separate distinct individual beings. All three in same thought and action.

After all are you not seeking perfection in Christ as he did in perfection after his Father? Is that not seeking becoming like God? What will you do for all eternity? Do we not as humans here on earth play God every day?

Just look at the fact we split and unleashed the atom. We choose life or death over babies i.e. abortion, crime punishment, even bugs, experimental trial over animals and humans. Creating life such as bacteria to combat disease, cloning, even artificial life coming about. At the Supercollider trying to build universes. Is that not being like God on a smaller scale?

We do not look upon God as just an animal as Universman states poorly. He is the Omnipotent and Omniscient being. This is confirmed by teaching of Mosiah:

17 And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.

We look upon Heavenly Father (Elohim) as the Supreme overseeing his Son Jesus in organizing this universe as raising Elohim's children (us) in the gospel. This in turn to teach us and prepare us to be like unto Christ thus becoming like a God. Preparing the way so that we may organize our universe, and prepare our spiritual children toward exaltation. Just as the Father did for us. Thus is in return that man my glorify God to his father as his father before him. It goes on and on with no end or beginning. thus no Ex Nihilo.

From Moses Chapter 1

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

36And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and atell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.

37And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The aheavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

38And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no aend to my works, neither to my words.

39For behold, this is my awork and my bglory—to bring to pass the cimmortality and deternal elife of man.

Therefore it is based in our faith in the Book of Moses to be true. This is why we don't believe in Ex-Nihilo. This is why you may think of us looking at of God as small, but we don't. He is our Father due to his creation organizing matter. Yep like a scientist or engineer would build or create. However it's on a huge scale of intelligence way beyond our comprehension. To have such intelligence requires great training, and that's why he gives us spiritual laws to be able to one day learn to use his power as it requires such discipline.

D&C 29:32

32 First spiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work—

Therefore if you think this is thinking putting God small. Well I'm sorry but like my father before me I look up to Heavenly Father. He is larger than life to all LDS.

Does that clarify some of our view? Some good readings to help:

The Creation

The King Follett Discourse by Joseph Smith

Edited July 12, 2011 by Sachi001

[Universeman]

From a non-LDS perspective, it is this very idea--that God could be an advanced being, and that we could simply be transforming into the same, that I find troubling.

Just because we understand what a rainbow is does not make it any less beautiful. I am not sure where I heard that statement, so I claim it as mine, lol. I just happen to have this propensity to follow a concept to its logical conclusion neither do I see any harm in doing so. I am sure that these concepts I have shared even make my LDS brothers and sisters a little uneasy as well. I have no doubts whatsoever that we can eventually become gods, the precise means by which this feat is accomplished is unknown to us (after we reach exaltation learning line upon line will continue untill we are perfected, could be a long time for me). The idea that we are the creation of some incomprehensible being who we are so far below his level that the best we can ever hope for is to spend an eternity worshiping him is an extremely troubling concept to me. But from an LDS perspective the reason there had to be a restoration of the true gospel of Jesus Christ is precisely because of this view that humankind is an insignificant speck which is absolutely nothing compared to Gods infinite greatness (his pinnacle of creation, yet of absolutely no true significance because any real number compared to infinity is effectively nothing). This is the reason the Lord lashed out so harshly against mainstream Christianity when Joseph Smith Jr. prayed to God to know which of the sects he should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

I am in no way trying to diminish Heavenly Fathers exulted status in any way, he did after all create a bizarrely anthropic (fine tuned) universe, this absolutely baffles cosmologists. He created this magnificent earth/moon/solar system which is so perfect for intelligent life and is in fact a living world teeming with life (as well as countless other worlds). He personally knows each and every one of us, our sins and weaknesses as well as our goodness and strengths. If we humbly and completely submit our will to the fathers he can work miracles in us, he has the capacity to transform us from a carnal animal state into gods if we let him. This process has nothing to do with our talents and abilities, or how great we are, we pretty much suck (at least I do). But it is through the saviors atonement and our willingness to live the gospel the best we are able no matter how small our capacity that this deification is possible. The only reason I have labeled Heavenly Father as an exulted and perfect homo sapien (to say that we are animals is nothing more than a description of our physical/corperal nature, I do scincerly apoligize if I have offended anyone) is simply because it is an accurate description of what he is, calling him an ETI simply states that he did not originate from our world. The idea that I can become a god is something which has resonated with me from the very first time I grasped the concept, I don’t know exactly when that happened, but it was shortly after my family converted to the LDS faith 30 years ago this year. The fact that we are effectively the same as Heavenly Father in no way diminishes him in my mind, neither does it make me think that I am any greater then what I am. What this concept does do is it infinitely elevates the worth of a soul and it makes the atonement infinitely more significant in its power and scope.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Remember that resurrection is a free gift to all of us whether good or evil, everlasting life on the other hand is the reward for those who submit to the will of the father.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Revelations 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Universeman

[bytebear]

From a non-LDS perspective, it is this very idea--that God could be an advanced being, and that we could simply be transforming into the same, that I find troubling. The traditional teaching that God is absolutely alone in his perfection, in his eternal nature, and in what He is, where as we are created by Him, out of nothing, destined to great, but not to be Gods, does not allow for an ET to make himself a God to us. He is the God of the universe.

I suppose the LDS belief can be exhilarating, but it also seems, again from my non-LDS perspective, to make God uncomfortably smaller, and us uncomfortably bigger. Some might suggest that my feeling just indicates that I am not yet prepared from the restored gospel. Perhaps so. I reckon many raised in traditional churches would feel the same as I.

And this is where I get so troubled by the traditional teaching. Because it contradicts Jesus' commandment for us to become perfect, even as Heavenly Father is perfect. Nothing, in my mind, could be clearer as to our goal. we are to become perfect, even as He is perfect. God is clearly not alone in his perfection.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I’m not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me Snoozer

In Richard Dawkins the God Delusion (a wonderful book which in an odd way strongly agrees with the Mormon view of God, of course Dawkins is completely ignorant of this fact), chapter 6 asks the question if our sense of morality (or light of Christ) has a Darwinian origin, which in fact it does. I find this concept especially intriguing because it means that our brains have been hardwired with the light of Christ through the process of evolution, what an amazing concept! These studies also indicate that all humans have the same sense of right and wrong regardless of nationality or upbringing.

If our moral sense, like our sexual desire, is indeed rooted deep in our Darwinian past, predating religion, we should expect that research on the human mind would reveal some moral universals, crossing geographical and cultural barriers, and also, crucially, religious barriers. The Harvard biologist Marc Hauser, in his book Moral Minds: How Nature Designed our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong, has enlarged upon a fruitful line of thought experiments originally suggested by moral philosophers. Hauser's study will serve the additional purpose of introducing the way moral philosophers think. A hypothetical moral dilemma is posed, and the difficulty we experience in answering it tells us something about our sense of right and wrong. Where Hauser goes beyond the philosophers is that he actually does statistical surveys and psychological experiments, using questionnaires on the Internet, for example, to investigate the moral sense of real people. From the present point of view, the interesting thing is that most people come

to the same decisions when faced with these dilemmas, and their agreement over the decisions themselves is stronger than their ability to articulate their reasons. This is what we should expect if we have a moral sense which is built into our brains, like our sexual instinct or our fear of heights or, as Hauser himself prefers to say, like our capacity for language (the details vary from culture to culture, but the underlying deep structure of grammar is universal). As we shall see, the way people respond to these moral tests, and their inability to articulate their reasons, seems largely independent of their religious beliefs or lack of them. The message of Hauser's book, to anticipate it in his own words, is this: 'Driving our moral judgments is a universal moral grammar, a faculty of the mind that evolved over millions of years to include a set of principles for building a range of possible moral systems. As with language, the principles that make up our moral grammar fly beneath the radar of our awareness.' (Dawkins, pg. 219)

In a recent study of the effects of powerful magnetic fields on specific regions of the brain, MIT scientists were able to switch off the sense of right and wrong in test subjects. This is further evidence that we have been hard wired with a common sense of morality which is the same for all humans. Magnets held to the head could switch off our sense of right and wrong | Mail Online

New from Hasbro, the morality helmet, have fun turning off your sense of morality or watch what you friends are capable of doing with out a sense of Morality, fun for all ages! Warning has caused cancer in lab rats in California.

The point that I really want to drive home is that Heavenly Father is a God only in the sense that he is far more advanced mentally and technologically then we can imagine, but because he is not of a terrestrial origin he is by definition an extraterrestrial Intelligence (ETI) and he is an animal, like were are who has advanced to the point of having the qualities of deity. I see no shame in recognizing the fact that we are animals who are capable of creating universes, life and consciousness itself. Heavenly father is a real physical male human who is the most advanced form of life which can possibly exist, we are atheists of any other description of God. We do not believe in a supernatural God of no substance who is an uncreated creator and who created the universe out of nothing.

How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.' A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths (from A Pale Blue Dot by Carl Sagan).

As Latter Day Saints we have an understanding of the universe as reveled by revelation and science is infinitely larger and more fantastic than Carl Sagan could have imagined! What has been revealed to us through modern revelation and by science in no way diminishes my awe and love of our Heavenly Father. Methodological materialism = no threat to spirituality. Methodological materialism = good scientific assumption. All Mormons should embrace scientific discoveries with an open mind and a sure knowledge that if there is an apparent contradiction between them it is due to our limited understanding of the universe and how the plan of salvation fits into it and not because there is any real conflict.

First of all, recognize that we are dual beings in this life, a spirit that has learned of many great and wonderful things for many many years before coming to this world and we are a carnal being (the body, and the brain circuit made up of nature and nurture wiring). One thing to appreciate before any of this discussion is that our spirit likely learned all the scientific knowledge man will ever obtain in this existence and beyond. My spirit and your spirit are 'smarter' and more intelligent than all the scientists that have ever existed in this mortal life and who will ever exist in mortality. That knowledge is just hidden behind the veil, but it will all come back after this life, there is no need to try to reproduce that here.

There are some thought processes that originate in our carnal mind, the wiring of our brain, for example - "I am hungry, I haven't eaten in a while" that clearly are a function of the functions of those and related circuits in the body. Whereas there are some thought processes that are a little more difficult to know if they originate from our brain circuits or from our spirit being, for example - "I have a feeling life does not end after I die." The imaginative circuits of the brain, the basal frontal lobes in particular can come up with some amazing concepts and every once in a while they may coincide with spiritual knowledge and so it "rings true". It may "ring true" with that partially hidden spiritual knowledge that we have already obtained before this life began, i.e. - the light of Christ. The only way to know where these thoughts originate is to become familiar with the promptings of the spirit. There is no other way. Spiritual things are learned spiritually, secular things are learned with our secular mind.

One thing that I see a lot on this forum, that I am surprised about is this concept that this life is a time for learning secular knowledge. It isn't really, only in the sense that it expands God purposes, to bring the gospel to more people and to bring about the immortality and Eternal Life of man. God didn't send us here to find the secrets of the universe. Don't you think he already knows the secrets of the universe? I believe he already shared that with us ... you already know the secrets of the universe, your spirit does. It is just hidden behind the veil and the fallen state we are in. Occasionally there are glimpses allowed us and in various ways to advance God's purpose here, i.e. - when someone "invents" something (that may be God allowing us to use previous knowledge or it may be something imaginative).

Our goal is not to become like God while remaining in a mortal, behind the veil state, because we can't. Our goal is to be worthy enough through spiritual learning to be transformed by the grace of our Lord to a state where we can become like God. Even though we believe God was once like us, you have to keep in mind that He didn't start out mortal, He started out, like us a spirit intelligence, in my opinion. Secular learning alone will never reach God-like status. We have never believed that.

[prisonchaplain]

And this is where I get so troubled by the traditional teaching. Because it contradicts Jesus' commandment for us to become perfect, even as Heavenly Father is perfect. Nothing, in my mind, could be clearer as to our goal. we are to become perfect, even as He is perfect. God is clearly not alone in his perfection.

Part of our being troubled is that we are both steeped in our faiths. The "Be ye perfect as I am perfect," phrase of Jesus is likely one of those LDS hear repeated often, offering direction towards Exaltation. For traditional folks like myself, it relates directly to the context of Jesus' of discussion about loving our enemies. Impossible...yet Jesus says we are to be perfect as He is.

[Universeman]

I owe it to Joseph Smith Jr. that I have the ability to understand Gods true nature and the true nature of our relationship to him by the spirit and with the mind of an atheist.

"Undisguised clarity is easily mistaken for arrogance."

— Richard Dawkins

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world."

— Richard Dawkins

"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is the belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence."

— Richard Dawkins

"One of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding."

— Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)

"Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that."

— Richard Dawkins

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."

— Richard Dawkins

"One of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding."

— Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)

"Evolution could so easily be disproved if just a single fossil turned up in the wrong date order. Evolution has passed this test with flying colours."

— Richard Dawkins (The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution)

"Even if it were true that evolution, or the teaching of evolution, encouraged immorality that would not imply that the theory of evolution was false."

— Richard Dawkins (The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution)

"The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. "

— Richard Dawkins

"If all the evidence in the universe turned in favour of creationism, I would be the first to admit it, and I would immediately change my mind. As things stand, however, all available evidence (and there is a vast amount of it) favours evolution."

— Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)

One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may. Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 199

We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 316

Truth is Mormonism. God is the author of it. Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 199

"It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is either ignorant, stupid, or insane."

— Richard Dawkins

"We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realize that we are apes."

— Richard Dawkins

"Molecular evidence suggests that our common ancestor with the chimpanzees lived, in Africa, between 5 and 7 million years ago, say half a million generations ago. This is not long by evolutionary standards."

— Richard Dawkins

If I revealed all that has been made known to me, scarcely a man on this stand would stay with me." and "Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the kingdom of God, I do know that you would rise up and kill me.

Joseph Smith, Jr.

"I am thrilled to be alive at time when humanity is pushing against the limits of understanding. Even better, we may eventually discover that there are no limits."

— Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)

I love how atheists are able to think like Latter day Saints, or is it the other way around?

D&C 132:20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

If heavenly Father isn’t an ape then what manner of being is he, or for that matter if evolution is somehow false, what manner of beings are we?

I want to ask this congregation, every man, woman and child, to answer the question in their own heart, what kind of a being God is? . . . Does any man or woman know? Have any of you seen him, heard him, or communed with him? . . . God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make Himself visible,—I say, if you were to see Him today, you would see Him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another. . . . It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God Himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did. Joseph Smith Jr.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I owe it to Joseph Smith Jr. that I have the ability to understand Gods true nature and the true nature of our relationship to him by the spirit and with the mind of an atheist.

"Undisguised clarity is easily mistaken for arrogance."

— Richard Dawkins

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world."

— Richard Dawkins

"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is the belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence."

— Richard Dawkins

"One of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding."

— Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)

"Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that."

— Richard Dawkins

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."

— Richard Dawkins

"One of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding."

— Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)

"Evolution could so easily be disproved if just a single fossil turned up in the wrong date order. Evolution has passed this test with flying colours."

— Richard Dawkins (The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution)

"Even if it were true that evolution, or the teaching of evolution, encouraged immorality that would not imply that the theory of evolution was false."

— Richard Dawkins (The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution)

"The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. "

— Richard Dawkins

"If all the evidence in the universe turned in favour of creationism, I would be the first to admit it, and I would immediately change my mind. As things stand, however, all available evidence (and there is a vast amount of it) favours evolution."

— Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)

One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may. Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 199

We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 316

Truth is Mormonism. God is the author of it. Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 199

"It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is either ignorant, stupid, or insane."

— Richard Dawkins

"We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realize that we are apes."

— Richard Dawkins

"Molecular evidence suggests that our common ancestor with the chimpanzees lived, in Africa, between 5 and 7 million years ago, say half a million generations ago. This is not long by evolutionary standards."

— Richard Dawkins

If I revealed all that has been made known to me, scarcely a man on this stand would stay with me." and "Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the kingdom of God, I do know that you would rise up and kill me.

Joseph Smith, Jr.

"I am thrilled to be alive at time when humanity is pushing against the limits of understanding. Even better, we may eventually discover that there are no limits."

— Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)

I love how atheists are able to think like Latter day Saints, or is it the other way around?

D&C 132:20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

If heavenly Father isn’t an ape then what manner of being is he, or for that matter if evolution is somehow false, what manner of beings are we?

I want to ask this congregation, every man, woman and child, to answer the question in their own heart, what kind of a being God is? . . . Does any man or woman know? Have any of you seen him, heard him, or communed with him? . . . God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make Himself visible,—I say, if you were to see Him today, you would see Him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another. . . . It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God Himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did. Joseph Smith Jr.

Unfortunately, the one and true religion gets clumped into "religion" which is what most of those quotes are referring to. We are the same type of being as God as we are His children, even though we are in a different state from God. Look at a caterpillar and a butterfly to help you understand how it is possible to be of the same type yet be vastly different at any given time and state. But we know that the transformation cannot take place without some divine assistance, in other words, it doesn't happen in a sterile, by-itself, unassisted "natural" way.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The other interesting thing about all those quotes you gave is that Dawkins has achieved high secular understanding and education whereas Smith did not, he received his understanding spiritually and you are saying they think alike. ... that should make you think about where this comes from.

Most Mormons I know (of course I am biased) have undergone more years of secular education than most, on average. ... I think you already realize that.

By Bruce Webster; "Sociological studies within the United States have typically shown an inverse relationship between level of education achieved and church activity for most major religions — in other words, the higher the educational level, the lower the religious activity.

By contrast, at least one study[1] has shown a dramatically different result for Mormons: the higher the educational level, the greater the religious activity. In other words, Mormons with graduate degrees are more active and faithful (weekly attendance, paying a full tithe, praying daily, studying the scriptures, stating that personal beliefs are important) than those with college degrees, who in turn are more active and faithful than those with just high school degrees or less. (One exception: the authors note their survey showed “that Mormon women who continue their education beyond college graduation do show a slight decline on all our measures of religiosity. Whether this is a function of a secularizing influence of education or other forces is a question that we are unable to address with the data currently available.”) The same article above also demonstrates that Mormons within the US, both males and females, are generally more highly educated than the US population at large."

[1] Albrecht, Stan L. and Tim B. Heaton. “Secularization, higher education, and religiosity.” Published in Review of Religious Research, 26:43-58; reprinted in Latter-day Saint Social Life: Social Research on the LDS Church and Its Members (James T. Duke, ed.), Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, Provo, UT, 1998, pp. 293-314.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[Universeman]

Unfortunately, the one and true religion gets clumped into "religion" which is what most of those quotes are referring to. We are the same type of being as God as we are His children, even though we are in a different state from God.

It is indeed unfortunate but I believe the biggest stumbling block for the likes of Dawkins is their inability to recognize the reality that the Holy Ghost testifies of the truth directly to our spirit. I think it is often hard for us to remember just how foreign this concept is to the vast majority of people outside of our faith and to an atheist it is completely outside of their paradigm for reality. I wish I knew how to convey the message of the gospel more effectively to intellectual types, but so often they get hung up on the lack of empirical, testable evidence as well as many other hang ups. I consider myself to be extremely fortunate to have received so many personal witnesses from the spirit of the truthfulness of the gospel. It is because of this strength of testimony I have been blessed with that I am able to venture off so boldly with my wild hypothesis of Heavenly Fathers true nature and just how huge the scope of the plan of salvation might be while at the same time keeping my eye single to the solid doctrines of the restoration as Elder Callister so brilliantly explained in the October 2009 general conference.

"Yet sorrowfully, on occasion, some are willing to set aside the precious gospel truths restored by Joseph Smith because they get diverted on some historical issue or some scientific hypothesis not central to their exaltation, and in so doing they trade their spiritual birthright for a mess of pottage. They exchange the absolute certainty of the Restoration for a doubt, and in that process they fall into the trap of losing faith in the many things they do know because of a few things they do not know. There will always be some seemingly intellectual crisis looming on the horizon as long as faith is required and our minds are finite, but likewise there will always be the sure and solid doctrines of the Restoration to cling to, which will provide the rock foundation upon which our testimonies may be built."

Once one achieves ones exaltation and becomes a god, that is to say becomes a being who has faith in himself independently. Who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient; without beginning of days or end of life, and in him all fullness dwells. Who is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings centers, for life and salvation is by definition truly an atheist (unless my logic is flawed, so please feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong). Where as in our current state we are dependent on our faith in our Heavenly Father and in his Son that we may become as he is by adherence to the plan of salvation.

[Universeman]

By contrast, at least one study[1] has shown a dramatically different result for Mormons: the higher the educational level, the greater the religious activity. In other words, Mormons with graduate degrees are more active and faithful (weekly attendance, paying a full tithe, praying daily, studying the scriptures, stating that personal beliefs are important) than those with college degrees, who in turn are more active and faithful than those with just high school degrees or less. The same article above also demonstrates that Mormons within the US, both males and females, are generally more highly educated than the US population at large."

Thanks for this info snoozer. Seriously this fact alone is one of the most remarkable testimonies of the gospel there is IMO.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is indeed unfortunate but I believe the biggest stumbling block for the likes of Dawkins is their inability to recognize the reality that the Holy Ghost testifies of the truth directly to our spirit. I think it is often hard for us to remember just how foreign this concept is to the vast majority of people outside of our faith and to an atheist it is completely outside of their paradigm for reality. I wish I knew how to convey the message of the gospel more effectively to intellectual types, but so often they get hung up on the lack of empirical, testable evidence as well as many other hang ups. I consider myself to be extremely fortunate to have received so many personal witnesses from the spirit of the truthfulness of the gospel. It is because of this strength of testimony I have been blessed with that I am able to venture off so boldly with my wild hypothesis of Heavenly Fathers true nature and just how huge the scope of the plan of salvation might be while at the same time keeping my eye single to the solid doctrines of the restoration as Elder Callister so brilliantly explained in the October 2009 general conference.

"Yet sorrowfully, on occasion, some are willing to set aside the precious gospel truths restored by Joseph Smith because they get diverted on some historical issue or some scientific hypothesis not central to their exaltation, and in so doing they trade their spiritual birthright for a mess of pottage. They exchange the absolute certainty of the Restoration for a doubt, and in that process they fall into the trap of losing faith in the many things they do know because of a few things they do not know. There will always be some seemingly intellectual crisis looming on the horizon as long as faith is required and our minds are finite, but likewise there will always be the sure and solid doctrines of the Restoration to cling to, which will provide the rock foundation upon which our testimonies may be built."

Once one achieves ones exaltation and becomes a god, that is to say becomes a being who has faith in himself independently. Who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient; without beginning of days or end of life, and in him all fullness dwells. Who is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings centers, for life and salvation is by definition truly an atheist (unless my logic is flawed, so please feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong). Where as in our current state we are dependent on our faith in our Heavenly Father and in his Son that we may become as he is by adherence to the plan of salvation.

The field is white and ready for harvest, you don't have to spend much time on "intellectuals" if they won't listen to the spirit. We move on. The Lord's work moves on, like a stone rolling down the mountain.

Your last paragraph is opposite to our religion. We believe that we cannot be Godlike independently, I don't know where you get that from. God's omnipotence comes from the fact that He is charitable, that He loves all of us and all those that have contributed to His development. The moment a person tells themselves, "I can do this on my own", evilness has entered their heart, satanic selfish thoughts have entered their heart. Our gospel is the opposite of "I can do this on my own", which is "I can only do this with the assistance of divine intervention and the knowledge of all those who came before me and their charitable acts". We all agreed, keeping our first estate, that charitable acts was a much better way to progress than trying to do it on our own. All those that thought independent advancement was better left with Satan and are not here in this world, even though they still try to convince us that that is true. This is shown in the statement that the glory of God is to bring to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man.

The happiest person in the world is one who can find pleasure in the success of others. What makes God's joy Eternal is that He doesn't just glory in His own achievements. He glories in everyone's successes, that is only possible in a person who is 100% charitable.

[Blackmarch]

I found this book Biocosm at the library, the author makes a pretty dang interesting scientific hypothesis which basically mirrors our doctrine of our potential to become gods and create new universes in an infinitely large multiverse. To me this is yet another testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel; the quote is the implication of his theory.

BIOCOSM-The New Scientific Theory of Evolution: Intelligent Life Is the Architect of the Universe. What is humankind’s place in the universe? That fundamental question underlies both scientific inquiry and millennia of religious thought. The traditional answer of science is that life and human intelligence are of no cosmic consequence but merely the random outcome of the interplay of natural forces. Mainstream religions answer the same question in many different ways but most share the view that the mind of the Creator of the universe is ultimately inaccessible to mortal minds. BIOCOSM challenges both viewpoints and suggests that the emergence of life and mind is a cosmic imperative encoded in the basic laws of nature and, further, that highly evolved intelligence will eventually play the key role in reproducing the cosmos.

The author of Biocosm cited this article and from a gospel point of view it states that heavenly Father would by definition be an extraterrestrial intelligence which i thought was pretty interesting.

Michael Shermer Shermer’s Last Law

when one understands what knowledge and power are, and understands how humankind is, were humanity to last long enough, they would eventually become (with a couple of provisos) as God whether there was one or not.

I find the LDS theology very reasonable.. infact i find it impressive- pretty much we have a being that is going to grant the chance to everyone to have that potential, and he's going to make it so it won't take as long as it would require and he's going to insure only those who won't destroy everything will be able to make it to that point

[prisonchaplain]

Would it blow anyone's theology if we actually were alone in the universe? Would it not be remarkable if the whole of existence really found it's highest place in us?

[Blackmarch]

Would it blow anyone's theology if we actually were alone in the universe? Would it not be remarkable if the whole of existence really found it's highest place in us?

Actually i think the only major theology such would blow away would be the LDS theology... depending on how alone being alone is (IE does God count as companionship, or as in the concept that there is no other intelligent presence in the universe, god included)

I'd find either result remarkable, altho I lean towards us not being alone in some form or another.

[prisonchaplain]

I was thinking "alone" as in we are the highest of God's creation, and that the whole universe is placed in perfect balance, for our benefit.

[bytebear]

I feel like we are debating this: geocentric versus heliocentric

The idea that we are the only planet that has life on it is just like saying we are the center of the universe. It's evidence vs. arrogance. I prefer to be humble in my place in the universe.

[Universeman]

Your last paragraph is opposite to our religion. We believe that we cannot be Godlike independently, I don't know where you get that from.

The happiest person in the world is one who can find pleasure in the success of others. What makes God's joy Eternal is that He doesn't just glory in His own achievements. He glories in everyone's successes, that is only possible in a person who is 100% charitable.

You are misunderstanding what I am trying to say snoozer, when I said the following I was paraphrasing the second lecture in Lectures on faith, pgs 25-26. We cannot become godlike independently, but once we have achieved godhood (by virtue of grace made possible by the Saviors atonement) we are no longer dependent on anything or any one, that is what it means to be a god as explained in Lectures on Faith. I will grant that the term atheist is used to reject the notion of Gods existence, so in this regard I will retract my statement as false, in the sense that Heavenly Father, while independent now, was dependent on his Heavenly Father to become God.

On pages 38-39 in the third lecture his attributes are defined and explained, it was never my intent to say that I only want to be a god to glory in my achievements. Just to reiterate, once one becomes a god faith becomes dormant because we will be omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. We become to object of faith no longer requiring faith. But we will also possess the following attributes because once we are a god our only purpose will be to labor with the other intelligences who will be our offspring to be able reach their full potential, and thus we will have joy and rejoicing in our posterity.

2 From the foregoing testimonies, we learn the following things respecting the character of God.

13 First, That he was God before the world was created, and the same God that he was, after it was created.

14 Secondly, That he is merciful, and gracious, slow to anger, abundant in goodness, and that he was so from everlasting, and will be to everlasting.

15 Thirdly, That he changes not, neither is there variableness with him; but that he is the same from everlasting to everlasting, being the same yesterday to-day and forever; and that his course is one eternal round, without variation.

16 Fourthly, That he is a God of truth and cannot lie.

17 Fifthly, That he is no respecter of persons; but in every nation he that fears God and works righteousness is accepted of him.

18 Sixthly, That he is love.

[prisonchaplain]

Well, our God is an extraterrestrial whose throne is near the star Kolob... might seem strange to say that, but God is a real being, who lives in a real place, so some could call him an extraterrestrial...

I understand that by definitions, this could be technical true. However, it strikes me as sacreligious. There is Creator God, and there is his creation. Even if one accepts that matter is eternal, God fashioned it, and created all that is. He is not the God of Earth. He is not the God of humans only. He is God. To say that since He is not of Earth, He is therefore ET just feels wrong to me.

[prisonchaplain]

After all are you not seeking perfection in Christ as he did in perfection after his Father? Is that not seeking becoming like God? What will you do for all eternity? Do we not as humans here on earth play God every day?

Excellent questions. Never, prior to encountering LDS teaching, did I imagine becoming God. Perfection meant not sinning, and fulfilling God's will for my life. I knew that in heaven I would become "godlike." However, it meant I would forsake all sin, gain much power, and be used in unimaginable ways to fulfill God's good pleasure for me.

Just look at the fact we split and unleashed the atom. We choose life or death over babies i.e. abortion, crime punishment, even bugs, experimental trial over animals and humans. Creating life such as bacteria to combat disease, cloning, even artificial life coming about. At the Supercollider trying to build universes. Is that not being like God on a smaller scale?

Aspiring to wisdom and power could be seen as attaining godly characteristics. This is a far cry from aspiring to be God.

We do not look upon God as just an animal as Universman states poorly. He is the Omnipotent and Omniscient being. ... We look upon Heavenly Father (Elohim) as the Supreme overseeing his Son Jesus in organizing this universe as raising Elohim's children (us) in the gospel. This in turn to teach us and prepare us to be like unto Christ thus becoming like a God. Preparing the way so that we may organize our universe, and prepare our spiritual children toward exaltation. Just as the Father did for us. Thus is in return that man my glorify God to his father as his father before him. It goes on and on with no end or beginning. thus no Ex Nihilo.

Suffice to say that this worldview is dramatically different. You eloquently state that belief or rejection of creation out of nothing leads to radically different theologies. We behave the same, we adore Almighty God, but our understandings end up hugely different. Fascinating stuff, to be sure.

Therefore it is based in our faith in the Book of Moses to be true. This is why we don't believe in Ex-Nihilo. This is why you may think of us looking at of God as small, but we don't. He is our Father due to his creation organizing matter. Yep like a scientist or engineer would build or create. However it's on a huge scale of intelligence way beyond our comprehension. To have such intelligence requires great training, and that's why he gives us spiritual laws to be able to one day learn to use his power as it requires such discipline.

Therefore if you think this is thinking putting God small. Well I'm sorry but like my father before me I look up to Heavenly Father. He is larger than life to all LDS

In saying that LDS theology seems to make God smaller (not small), there is no denying that worship is tendered, and that Heavenly Father is nevertheless Almighty. However, the relationship is different. With creation out of nothing, God's followers see an eternal relationship in which we become more like God--powerful, good and wise--and yet always serve gratefully under him who brought us into existence. He is forever Creator, we his creation. This relationship may grow, but it will not change.

LDS teaching seems to allow for a changing relationship. As literal children of God, you will grow up and become Gods yourselves. You may continue to honor God as your parents, but, just as children come to see their parents as consultants, rather than "those who grant us permission," your exaltation would seem to change your relationship to HF. Thus, God becomes relatively "smaller," while you become exponentially greater.

BTW, I hope my comments are considered observations and reflections. You seem to have some good grasp on traditional Christian thinking. My hope is that my thoughts give you even further insight.

On another note, many thoughtful evangelicals are admitting that LDS theology, if nothing else, is rigorous and sophisticated. The days of flippant dismissal are passing.

.