Are We A Closed Minded, Judgemental People?

[anthony]

Just some personal thoughts

I strongly believe that LDS are closeminded and judgemental at times

Is that all bad? I don't think so. We have to have a separation line between ourselves and the world. That will probably be a little different for each of us depending on our individual experiences.

We have to judge for ourselves what is right and wrong.

I agree with the rest of what you wrote in the post whole-heartedly, but this part surprised me. Is it EVER a good thing to be closeminded/judgemental? Of course not! What if Noah had decided not to build the ark because he thought it was a crazy idea? Did not Jesus let a prostitute wash his feet? What if all those Prophets in the Book of Mormon had not gone to preach to he Lamanites because they were a wicked and perverse people? IMO being closeminded/judgemental is never a good thing. These attributes would and do separate many Mormons from society but in a way that is hurtful to the church and makes others despise us.

BTW, I live in Illinois and am thinking about finishing up college in BYU but am wary of the Mormons who are closeminded/judgemental. I tend not to get along with them so well. Thankfully, not all of Utah is like that so I'll probally still go

[Outshined]

I strongly believe that LDS are closeminded and judgemental at times.

All human beings are.

[Ray]

Ray -

An honest question..... if a fundamentalist practioner of Islam were to say the same thing, in support of some the more extreme things done in the name of that religion, couldn't they make the exact same logical argument that you make?

Would you rephrase your question, please? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Are you asking me what I would say or think if...

... I said something like...

... I am right because I know what I know about [something] is true...

and somebody else said:

... I am right because I know what I know about [something] is true...

... about the same exact thing I was talking about...

... and what they said didn't agree with what I said?

Is that what you are asking me, Scott?

If so, I would respond to that by saying or thinking...

... some things are true, and some things are not true...

... it really doesn't matter what we think.

We could say anything is really the truth...

... but that wouldn't mean it's the truth.

I think we should all try to know what is true...

... regardless of what anyone tries to tell us...

... anyone other than God, I mean.

Only God can tell us all what is really the truth...

... and only God will always tell us the truth.

And if God doesn't know what is really the truth...

... then that is not truly my God.

Is it EVER a good thing to be closeminded/judgemental? Of course not!

Please define what you mean by "closeminded" and "judgmental", and I'll tell you what that means to me.

If someone tries to tell me what I know to be true is really a lie... I stop listening. I totally close my mind off to even a remote possibility that what they are saying is true.

Of course, I do try to understand what they're saying, but once I really know what they mean, if what they are saying is a lie, and I know it, I will never think what they are saying is true... because I know it's a lie, and not true.

And that is my judgment about that.

This is true... that is not.

That's called making a judgment. And I do it every day of my life.

Now, if you are thinking something other than what I explained, I'd like you to share what you think.

At this point I have explained what I think about that, but I'm still open to listening to you explain yourself.

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

Ray, if you are right, then the only obligation you have (to be considered humble) is to let the speaker finish speaking before you inform him/her that s/he's wrong.

Are you done yet?

WOW!

[Ray]

You might want to get out more, Tommy. That was nothing. :)

[prisonchaplain]

You might want to get out more, Tommy. That was nothing. :)

Can you make that happen? . . . Please!

[Ray]

Heh, nope, sorry, I can't make you do anything. And neither can God. It's your choice. :)

You don't have to be there if you don't want to be. Others might. But not you. You are free.

Or are you? Hmmm.

[prisonchaplain]

Nope. I'm not free. I'm a bondservant of Christ. :-)

[Ray]

I think you really do believe that is true.

[StuggliesWife]

Having just joined this site, I am about 4 months behind on this topic but I will say my peace anyway.

Joseph Smith said, "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves".

It can't be any more simple than that. If you have the correct principles, govern yourselves according to what you've been taught.

Bryan, while you think people in the church are closed minded and judgmental, I think most are too rationalizing in their behaviors.

[Ray]

Having just joined this site, I am about 4 months behind on this topic but I will say my peace anyway.

I liked hearing what you said, and just so you know, I don't think you can ever be behind. Sometimes I'll even dig up an old thread we've talked about while hoping that someone else will share some of their own thoughts.

Thank you very much for sharing yours.

Joseph Smith said, "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves".

It can't be any more simple than that. If you have the correct principles, govern yourselves according to what you've been taught.

But how do you know if or when what you've been taught is not what you should keep on thinking?

I think that relates to the topic, of being openminded and judmental.

Is that a good thing, or a bad thing, and do you do it?

And how do you know when you've done it enough?

Sometimes there is more we don't think of.

Bryan, while you think people in the church are closed minded and judgmental, I think most are too rationalizing in their behaviors.

I don't think it is possible to be too rationalizing... in the sense that they can do that too much.

But along with rationalizing, we also need... something else.

More faith... more hope... more love... more patience... and/or more of something else... to know the truth.

And btw, it has occured to me that many times it is an AND, instead of an OR, I should be thinking of as I think.

All truth is like a chain that fits together when it's complete... when every link is put together to make it whole.

And sometimes we do have every link of a strand... so we should then take that and keep on adding.

[StuggliesWife]

<div class='quotemain'>

Having just joined this site, I am about 4 months behind on this topic but I will say my peace anyway.

I liked hearing what you said, and just so you know, I don't think you can ever be behind. Sometimes I'll even dig up an old thread we've talked about while hoping that someone else will share some of their own thoughts.

Thank you very much for sharing yours.

Joseph Smith said, "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves".

It can't be any more simple than that. If you have the correct principles, govern yourselves according to what you've been taught.

But how do you know if or when what you've been taught is not what you should keep on thinking?

I think that relates to the topic, of being openminded and judmental.

Is that a good thing, or a bad thing, and do you do it?

And how do you know when you've done it enough?

Sometimes there is more we don't think of.

Bryan, while you think people in the church are closed minded and judgmental, I think most are too rationalizing in their behaviors.

I don't think it is possible to be too rationalizing... in the sense that they can do that too much.

But along with rationalizing, we also need... something else.

More faith... more hope... more love... more patience... and/or more of something else... to know the truth.

And btw, it has occured to me that many times it is an AND, instead of an OR, I should be thinking of as I think.

All truth is like a chain that fits together when it's complete... when every link is put together to make it whole.

And sometimes we do have every link of a strand... so we should then take that and keep on adding.

Well Ray, the correct principles would be those in our manuals. You know, those books that we are supposed to read each week before our lesson's but usually don't. That's how I know what is being taught is correct and how I should be thinking and conducting my life. It came from the mouth of a prophet.

And by too much rationalizing... that would be people making excuses for their actions and not taking enough accountability or deciding the "word" doesn't exactly apply to their situation.

I recall a YW lesson I gave once about rationalizations being the #1 tool of satan. We often times excuse and rationalize our behavior away. It's in the manual. Manual 3 I think... I don't recall it's been about 10 years since I've served in YW.

So in that vein... I don't think LDS people are too judgmental and close minded. I think they're being obedient. Isn't that what we're supposed to do? Don't we find more happiness in obedience? I have learned that I do. No more rationalizing the tank top and sunbathing topless (yes, I did that as late as my mid-20's being married with 2 children!) No more worrying about what Joe Jones down the street is doing. We've been given our standards and our correct principles. It's up to each individual to figure it out from there.

From what I read through this thread... there was an awful lot of rationalization of behaviors going on and the finger being pointed to close minded/judgmental members for not agreeing with them.

[Ray]

Just so you know, I'm breaking your post apart into fragments so I can respond to what you are talking about. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you.

Well Ray, the correct principles would be those in our manuals. You know, those books that we are supposed to read each week before our lesson's but usually don't. That's how I know what is being taught is correct and how I should be thinking and conducting my life. It came from the mouth of a prophet.

To someone who is not a member of our Church... which includes a lot of people who read and/or post on this forum... saying "it's in the manual", or that a person who we (LDS) sustain as a prophet of God "said so", very simply, doesn't cut the mustard.

... so I try to get into the way we learn anything and then, yes, I let others govern themselves.

...by too much rationalizing... that would be people making excuses for their actions and not taking enough accountability or deciding the "word" doesn't exactly apply to their situation.

But what is the "word" to those who don't know it?

That's why some see it as being "closeminded" and "judgmental" when we don't agree with their thoughts.

I recall a YW lesson I gave once about rationalizations being the #1 tool of satan. We often times excuse and rationalize our behavior away. It's in the manual. Manual 3 I think... I don't recall it's been about 10 years since I've served in YW.

Rationalizations... in and of themselves... really do not cause any problems.

And I define "rationalization" as "the act of using rational thoughts a person has when they simply use their own noggin instead of just accepting what other people say".

But is using "rationalization" enough to help us know what is true... or what God would agree with?

No... we know better. It's not enough, alone.

But that doesn't mean we should STOP using rationalization... we just need to add assurances from God.

From what I read through this thread... there was an awful lot of rationalization of behaviors going on and the finger being pointed to close minded/judgmental members for not agreeing with them.

And I hope you now know why some people point fingers.

[Gwen]

i beleive the defination of rationalization that is being used here, as merriam-webster defines it (not myself, sometimes personal definations don't cut the mustard, to be communicating effectivly we must use the accepted defination ) is:

cause something to seem reasonable

to attribute (one's actoins) to rational and creditable motives without analysis of true and esp. unconscious motives <rationalized his dislike of his brother>

to provide plausible but untrue reasons for conduct

i added the bold. and rationalizing can be very distructive. we use it when we want something that we know is not acceptable so we come up with 'sounds good when you say it fast' logic, when if given true examination we would find it didn't hold water.

a simple example is we've been asked to not watch R rated movies. i have heard it said before, well, is't not really worse and even better than some pg-13, it's only R cause it's about war (or whatever the topic). obviously wouldn't show it to the kids, but it's ok for me. or i don't hold to the no R cause there really is not difference between R and pg-13 anymore so i make my decisions based on each individual movie.

sounds good when you say it fast, but does it really matter if those things are true then the proper response is really to stop watching pg-13 as well, not rationalize watching the R. but if watching those movies is what you want to do then, then go with the first argument, i'm sure there are those who will agree.

as far as close minded and judgemental go, i think it's a fine line between loving ppl and not actions, being open and supportive of agency and not condoning the choices or actions. it is hard, but i think can be done. for me it's a matter of remembering that justice belongs to the lord and for me it is to love everyone, and there is no way i can truely know why others do as they do, just as they can not know why i do what i do. give folks the benifit of the doubt, find what good is in them and focus on that. no one here would survive a microscopic examination of why and how we come to make our decisions, no one is perfect.

[Ray]

i beleive the defination of rationalization that is being used here, as merriam-webster defines it (not myself, sometimes personal definations don't cut the mustard, to be communicating effectivly we must use the accepted defination ) is:

cause something to seem reasonable

to attribute (one's actoins) to rational and creditable motives without analysis of true and esp. unconscious motives <rationalized his dislike of his brother>

to provide plausible but untrue reasons for conduct

Heh, that's funny. Who came up with those definitions? That doesn't sound very rational to me.

rationalizing can be very destructive.

Yes, I agree, it can be... if we do base our rational thoughts on false notions.

I believe we can be rational without doing that, though. And that is good rationalizing to me.

a simple example is we've been asked to not watch R rated movies. i have heard it said before, well, it's not really worse and even better than some pg-13, it's only R cause it's about war (or whatever the topic). obviously wouldn't show it to the kids, but it's ok for me. or i don't hold to the no R cause there really is not difference between R and pg-13 anymore so i make my decisions based on each individual movie.

sounds good when you say it fast, but does it really matter if those things are true then the proper response is really to stop watching pg-13 as well, not rationalize watching the R. but if watching those movies is what you want to do then, then go with the first argument, i'm sure there are those who will agree.

There are those who will agree, and there are those who won't agree. But it doesn't mean that those who don't aren't being rational. They're simply basing their ideas on a false notion, from someone... without using their own noggin to think with... and then asking for an assurance from God.

as far as close minded and judgemental go, i think it's a fine line between loving ppl and not actions, being open and supportive of agency and not condoning the choices or actions. it is hard, but i think can be done. for me it's a matter of remembering that justice belongs to the lord and for me it is to love everyone, and there is no way i can truely know why others do as they do, just as they can not know why i do what i do. give folks the benifit of the doubt, find what good is in them and focus on that. no one here would survive a microscopic examination of why and how we come to make our decisions, no one is perfect.

You'll never fail if you never fail to love everyone as God does love everybody, but there are those who believe they truly love other people who don't truly know what love truly is. And it's totally beyond the realm of all rational thoughts why God does truly love me, but I know it is true, even beyond all rationality, and I know because I know God told me. :)

[sweetpotatoh]

Bryans, don't let the ignorant among us get ya down. My wife recently got her R.N. degree and works full time. We have 2 children and don't plan on having anymore. I really don't have any friends in the ward as I live in Utah and the ignorance among the faithful is disturbing. My wifes friends consist mostly of the older people in the ward as they are much more tolerant(generally) then the newly weds.

I've heard some ignorant statements from the pulpit during fast and testimony. One new sister who moved into the ward and newly married lammented from the pulpit how could any sister not marry a returned missionary. LOL, my wife just blew it off as the sister being an ignoramous. I didn't go on a mission. LOL i just shake my head and laugh. I figure the two little boys she has under the age of 2 is punishment enough!!!!!!

Born in American Fork Utah and raised in Provo i was exposed to the ignorance at a very young age. My mother would forbid me to play with non-lds kids. I've heard and witnessed some pretty strange stuff at

church. One brother got so mad at my dad that he tried to kill him with his rifle. Came after my father after church. He went home and got his rifle and was running towards my house, which my father saw him leave his house with the rifle and pulled out his .44 mag and was waiting by the front door for the brother to come a callin. A member of the ward was walking down the street at the time and saw what was going to happen and tackled the rifle weildeng brother from behind. LOL!!!!! The bisop and my mother convinced my father to not press charges against the brother. my father told the bishop, fine butt if he does anything to my family or me it is on your head!! The bishop agreed.

Just know it could be much much worse.

take the opportunity, when one presents their ignorance, to be thankful that it isn't you being the ignoramous and then have a hearty laugh.*

*The above is opinion, except for the stories, they really happened.

[Serg]

Well, I am absort at all such "attempts" on definying rationalization, at least, in psychological terms such is just one of the mechanisms of the self to deal with something, it essentially consists on justifying rationally(it begged the question) a belief or conduct, ect...It could be a successful justification, it matters not whether the action ISrational or not before or after such process, but it matters that ONE tries to justify it(very often fail in doing so). Other mechanisms are sublimation, projection, etc...

[Princess3dward]

I didn't read any of the replies. Infact, I only read the topic heading, so please don't complain to me if I am way off base.

I wont read your complaints anyway.

I am just going to voice what I think on the topic.

Because of the high standards that LDS members live by, there are more things seen in people, like how they spend their sundays, whether they believe they can be happy in Terrestial, whether they drink pepsi.

Because of all of these standards, it is HARD not to notice them, and when they are noticed, the thought "they aren't following ALL of the commandments" and so on pop into our heads.

Because of this, yes... VERY judgmental.

[Guest MrsS]

<div class='quotemain'>

Well Ray, the correct principles would be those in our manuals. You know, those books that we are supposed to read each week before our lesson's but usually don't. That's how I know what is being taught is correct and how I should be thinking and conducting my life. It came from the mouth of a prophet.

To someone who is not a member of our Church... which includes a lot of people who read and/or post on this forum... saying "it's in the manual", or that a person who we (LDS) sustain as a prophet of God "said so", very simply, doesn't cut the mustard. Excuse me, Ray, but In My Opinon, you are wrong here. It DOES cut the mustard. It shows that we are obeying Father by listening to, and obeying His servants just like He commanded us to do. Those who are on this forum who are not members of the Church should have this site http://www.lds.org/gospellibrary/0,5082,4-1,00.html# at lds.org bookmarked and refer to it as often as we members of the Church do. We LDS members should be posting links to all of our references for all to go to and read for themselves.

... so I try to get into the way (Yes you do get in the way with a lot of words that don't connect. Give us ALL more credit for understanding than you are doing Ray. If you would edit your posts down by deleting all the repetitive explanations, you would not be so aggravating or coming across as so belitteling. We all know how you go to Father to find the truth. We all do that - actually we should assume that all are doing that and leave it at that. This next question is strictly rhetorical Ray - I do not want a written answer ok? Because I am going to answer it. Where did you first hear of the truth? From Father's living prophets that is where. Everyone can hear/read the spoken words of Father's living prophets by going to lds.org and searching it all out for themselves. Once we have listened to Father's living prophets, pondered what we have heard, we then go to Father in prayer for confirmation of what we have heard and pondered. Please do not keep repeating this to us at nearly every post you write. Enough already. Stop treating us ALL as though we are ignorant and incapable of maintaining even a scrap of knowledge. Thank You.) we learn anything and then, yes, I let others govern themselves.