Gods Word Conflicts? What Am I Missing?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Well said PC. Thank goodness you're back on the boards. :) Your fair-mindedness and candor were sorely missed.

[Palerider]

Hey Palerider,

Can you give some supporting verses that show that in the N.T.?

Thanks

aaaaahhhhh.yes....read Ephesians chapter 3.......I know the verse but I just want you to read it....not trying to be a wise guy....

[Dr T]

Hello Sir,

Don’t worry; I didn’t read it as being a wise guy comment in any way. :) That is a great chapter. We read that Paul was galled to share with the gentiles. We also read that through God’s plan, creation was manifest (through Jesus) in a couple of ways. Through creation in general (see Jn 1:3) and through a spiritual rebirth. Paul was, in a sense, showing that the whole of creation was done by Jesus and the same power He has over the spirit. He is the One that makes a “new creation” in the believer. From sinful death to “all things are new.” Just my thoughts on that great chapter.

Dr. T

[Palerider]

thats why I said...when we read it .......it does say God created all things thru Jesus Christ......it is a great chapter

[boyando]

Welcome back P C

I too, have missed you.

Your point is very well taken. I'v not been on this board as long as many others, so my observation's are limited. It does seem to me that there are over ten thousand members of this site and maybe fifty that use this site. So many come and go with out getting to know great men and women, like yourself.

I also feel like there are many non members, such as you, Dr T, Mureen and others, who are keeping me on my toe's and strenghening my testimony of the Gosple of Jesus Christ. Pale Rider has a qoute in his signature from Herold B Lee- "A testimony is fragile, it is as hard to hold as a moombeam.You must recapture it everyday of your life." I want to thank you all, for asking tough qeustions. It is the tree's in the forest, that fight for sunshine, that grow the tallest. The gosple is that sunshine that helps us to grow taller and nearer to God.

For those who, come and go, I would ask you to stay a while and get to know these great people, member's and non-members of the LDS faith. So many here are trying to make it, one fold and one Shepard. I know that we will some day, all confess that Jesus is the Christ and I look forward to that day.

Once again, I find myself, your unworthy freind -Allmosthumble

[Traveler]

Hello everyone,

My name is Danny and I am a new found believer in the Mormon religion, and have resantly been reading heavaly through Gods word and have found some points in the Book of Mormon that contradict the D&C and the Pearl. As Mormons we believe in the polythiesm or multiple Gods but Alma 11:28-29 states "27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. 28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? 29 And he answered, No. 30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things? 31 And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me." Now because the Book of Mormon is the "Flawless word of God" I can't just sit back and say there are plural because it is false. There is only one God! Also Mosiah 15:2-5 states " 2 And because he adwelleth in bflesh he shall be called the cSon of God, and having subjected the flesh to the dwill of the eFather, being the Father and the Son— 3 The Father, abecause he was bconceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— 4 And they are aone God, yea, the very bEternal cFather of heaven and of earth. 5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, asuffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and bscourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people." So that means God and Jesus are one. I don't quite understand but God is incomprhendable for us and we need to just take it as fact. Please tell me what I saw wrong or tell me I'm write because I cannot see what I missed.

God Bless,

Servant for Christ

In Ecclesiastes chapter 1 it tells us that nothing new ever happens. Our day is the same as the ancient days. Anciently in the days of Christ, Jesus was criticized for his contradictions with established scripture known as “The Law”. (See John 7:47- 49) Note also that those making this claim were all experts in scripture. In fact, if it were not for these experts in scripture that anciently opposed Jesus the Bible of today would not even exist.

As we examine the teachings of Jesus and the Prophets we will note that consistency in doctrine was not a major concern. What we find instead is a concern over inconsistency of doctrine with behavior. Or in other words, hypocrisy. In fact Jesus even taught that the only way to identify a “false teacher” is by their fruits and never by their doctrine. Why would anyone that believes in Jesus be more concerned over doctrine than fruits? The answer is obvious - they worship G-d with their mouths and with their lips they honor him but they have removed their hearts far from him.

Many times I hear criticism of individuals that seem to be a little “home spun” with their doctrine. They seem to have rather strange ideas. But they treat others with great respect, kindness and concern. In short, if someone is not an example of how their doctrine inspires them to enlightened fruits or deeds - I am not interested in their doctrine. If a doctrine inspires better people to be even better - I am interested. For example, I love the concept in the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS that every member should serve in a calling and that callings are made without qualifications. Therefore everyone can be inspired and helped by every other member.

Now to the doctrine of one true G-d. Prior to the fall of man there were many g-ds but since the fall for fallen man there is only one true G-d of salvation. This is the Mediator G-d, Jesus The Christ, the G-d of both the Old and New Testament. This doctrine inspires those that believe it to live worthy (which means to live by faith, repentance and the covenant of baptism - Jesus himself being the example - note that Jesus did not just teach doctrine but he demonstrated being worthy by being obedient). The consistent doctrine and behavior is that Jesus is the one true G-d that is the Mediator for all to G-d the Father and accordingly every true follower of Jesus is a mediator to the world by example of obedience to that which is true. Anyone that says they believe in Jesus and are not examples of obedience to Jesus’s commandments are liars and servants of Satan. And if one is to believe the scriptures - Satan is “The g-d of this world” - proving that there is more than one g-d.

The Traveler

[mdb]

I've been gone for two weeks, but a mere couple minutes of reading s4c's posts and mdb's responses clued me in. Take it from this non-LDS Christian clergyperson, there's nothing more non-Christian then coming to the "household" of another faith, pretending to be of the fold, and then carrying out crude and disingenious 'missionary' work.

As our bretheren in the prisons like to say, "Keep it Real!"

prisonchaplain,

Of which are you refering to as acting non-Christian? s4c, mdb, or both?

As far as I recall, I have yet to claim to be someone I am not. Have I been deceptive an any way? Please clarify.

[mdb]

Now to the doctrine of one true G-d. Prior to the fall of man there were many g-ds but since the fall for fallen man there is only one true G-d of salvation. This is the Mediator G-d, Jesus The Christ, the G-d of both the Old and New Testament. This doctrine inspires those that believe it to live worthy (which means to live by faith, repentance and the covenant of baptism - Jesus himself being the example - note that Jesus did not just teach doctrine but he demonstrated being worthy by being obedient). The consistent doctrine and behavior is that Jesus is the one true G-d that is the Mediator for all to G-d the Father and accordingly every true follower of Jesus is a mediator to the world by example of obedience to that which is true. Anyone that says they believe in Jesus and are not examples of obedience to Jesus’s commandments are liars and servants of Satan. And if one is to believe the scriptures - Satan is “The g-d of this world” - proving that there is more than one g-d.

The Traveler

Two questions:

1) Where in the Scriptures does it say that prior to the fall of man there were many "gods" but since the fall for fallen man there is only one true God of salvation?

2) Does Satan being called a god make him a true god?

He is called the prince of the power of the air...

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

(Eph 2:1,2)

He is called the god of this age...

But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

(2 Cor 4:3,4)

He is called the ruler of this world (cast out)...

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

(Jn 12:31)

About those so-called "gods" the Scriptures say they are not really gods at all.

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

(1 Cor 8:5)

Has a nation changed its gods,

Which are not gods?

But My people have changed their Glory

For what does not profit.

(Jer 2:11)

Do not fear, nor be afraid;

Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?

You are My witnesses.

Is there a God besides Me?

Indeed there is no other Rock;

I know not one.’ ”

(Is 44:8)

[mdb]

And yes, I know what elohim means in Hebrew. I've studied Hebrew, have you? Can you write in both Square and Cursive Hebrew scripts? Or did you just regurgitate a snippet from a Bible commentary? Don't assume the average LDS member is an ignoramus with his eyes surgically attached to the Book of Mormon. We study and embrace lots of knowledge, thanks for asking.

I'm glad you know what elohim means. How does the LDS interpretation of it (the word elohim) being the personal name for the Father align itself with the true meaning of the Hebrew word (a plural word for "god" or "a god")? What do you do with the Scriptures that say elohim is yhwh? Do you turn a blind eye to it?

I know some Hebrew, but I would be lying if I claimed I could gramatically write a sentence in the Hebrew language.

No, I don't regurgitate snippets from commentaries although many commentaries have been written by men of God and hold much truth and value. I wouldn't feel the least bit bad for pasting a snippet or two if it was biblical (and maybe I have in the past - I don't keep tabs).

I don't think you are an unlearned man, just binded to the truth. The Pharisees were very educated individuals (studying the Scriptures daily), but did not see what was to be seen. The LDS teaches you that Jesus is the Christ, but they err in their doctrine that He is "a god" (also a JW belief) rather than the only one true God. The Scriptures have much to say about those who lead others away by deceptive doctrines.

Please know my intension is not to make you angry, but to share with you the truth. The truth is offensive to some, but I do not come here intending to offend.

[Ray]

I think we should ALL ask if what we know is true, and I think the "one" to ask is our true God.

Some believe we (LDS) are wrong, but we (LDS) believe we know the truth...

... and everyone can know the truth with God's assurance.

[mdb]

I think we should ALL ask if what we know is true, and I think the "one" to ask is our true God.

Some believe we (LDS) are wrong, but we (LDS) believe we know the truth...

... and everyone can know the truth with God's assurance.

You speak of assurance, yet you don't even have the assurance of salvation. You believe in a general resurrection for all men and the possibility of forgiveness of sins - dependent on how good you are. My salvation through Jesus Christ is the forgiveness of all my sins and eternal life with Him. I am sure of my salvation as the Scriptures say I can be and it only comes by the grace of God.

Salvation has a double meaning in Mormonism: universal resurrection and . . .

"The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79)

"As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

mdb, don't tell us what we do or don't have. You disagree with our theology. Fine. We've established that. Your posts don't seem aimed at building a mutual understanding of and respect for differing beliefs. The role of prosecutor doesn't become you. Thanks, but I'm going to take the opportunity to end my participation in this debate.

One last thing: If you want to learn about mature discussion, study the posts of PrisonChaplain and Dr. T...they disagree with LDS beliefs with courtesy and kindness. And that prompts me to want to dialogue with them.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

I think we should ALL ask if what we know is true, and I think the "one" to ask is our true God.

Some believe we (LDS) are wrong, but we (LDS) believe we know the truth...

... and everyone can know the truth with God's assurance.

You speak of assurance, yet you don't even have the assurance of salvation.

Yes I do. God has told me I do. Do you suggest that I believe you or God?

You believe in a general resurrection for all men and the possibility of forgiveness of sins - dependent on how good you are.

You got that part right. I'll now give you 1000 points. Keep adding those up and then redeem them. :)

My salvation through Jesus Christ is the forgiveness of all my sins and eternal life with Him.

Well what do you know. Well how about that. That's what my salvation is too. :)

I am sure of my salvation as the Scriptures say I can be and it only comes by the grace of God.

In which of the scriptures was God or anyone else speaking specifically to YOU saying YOU can be sure YOU are saved???

I agree you can learn things from the people who wrote scriptures, but I know of none written specifically to YOU. And you cannot be saved by knowing other people are saved. You need a personal assurance from God to YOU.

Salvation has a double meaning in Mormonism: universal resurrection and . . .

"The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79)

"As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79)

Yep. Very good. I'll now give you 2000 more points. :)

And as I have given, I can also take away. I hope you'll make good use of your points.

[prisonchaplain]

Of which are you refering to as acting non-Christian? s4c, mdb, or both?

As far as I recall, I have yet to claim to be someone I am not. Have I been deceptive an any way? Please clarify.

I was primarily referring to those who pretend to be LDS or new LDS or potential converts, but who, in actuality are critics hoping to present serious accusations in the guise of sincere inquiry. While I did mention the interchange between s4c and you, it was primarily the OP's intentions I found suspicious.

Furthermore, my suspicions could be totally off-base. I believe I've discerned correctly, but in labeling activity "unChristian," I tried to condemn the activity, not those who I may have thought were guilty.

[Traveler]

Two questions:

1) Where in the Scriptures does it say that prior to the fall of man there were many "gods" but since the fall for fallen man there is only one true God of salvation?

All references to G-d prior to the fall are plural - For example: Let "US" make man in "OUR" image.

2) Does Satan being called a god make him a true god?

The scriptures indicate that Satan is a g-d - I am not sure what you are trying to do with the word "true" - I am sure you can make up what-ever you like regardless what the scriptures say so that you can believe you are right in thinking there is only one singular g-d. But here is a thought for you. If man deals with the same G-d before and after the fall then there is no need for a Mediator and the doctrine that man needs a savior to atone for sin before man can have a relationship with G-d is false - and the Jews that sought the life of Jesus for claiming he was the way and no man come unto the Father but by him was justified by scripture!

The Traveler

<div class='quotemain'>

Of which are you refering to as acting non-Christian? s4c, mdb, or both?

As far as I recall, I have yet to claim to be someone I am not. Have I been deceptive an any way? Please clarify.

I was primarily referring to those who pretend to be LDS or new LDS or potential converts, but who, in actuality are critics hoping to present serious accusations in the guise of sincere inquiry. While I did mention the interchange between s4c and you, it was primarily the OP's intentions I found suspicious.

Furthermore, my suspicions could be totally off-base. I believe I've discerned correctly, but in labeling activity "unChristian," I tried to condemn the activity, not those who I may have thought were guilty.

I find myself agreeing with this notion - and it plays in all directions - including some members (in name) of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS that ask questions in an attempt to make a snare (to catch someone in a doctrine trap). I think Jesus was quite clear that he and his sheep do not use such methods. Which is what I think was the point in starting this thread.

Thanks

The Traveler

[mdb]

In which of the scriptures was God or anyone else speaking specifically to YOU saying YOU can be sure YOU are saved???

I'm more than confident that the following passages are for me as well as you and "all" who believe. They are personal. Do you think Jesus only spoke of those who were alive and present when He was on the earth? Aside from those of that time, that makes us all hopelessly lost and without the hope of a resurrection. The word of God is personal and the salvation given through Christ is personal. The Christian faith consists of a personal relationship with the Lord.

And it shall come to pass

That whoever calls on the name of the Lord

Shall be saved.

For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,

As the Lord has said,

Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.

(Joel 2:32)

And it shall come to pass

That whoever calls on the name of the Lord

Shall be saved.’

(Acts 2:21)

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

(Rom 10:8-13)

Can I be assured of my salvation? Certainly.

I will post one passage, but anyone who wants to can look up the rest at their discretion.

Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

(2 Co 5:5)

Jn 5:24; 6:37-40,44,47; 10:27-30; 17:8-11; Rom 5:1-5; 8:29,30; 1 Cor 1:8,9; 2 Cor 1:21,22; Eph 1:4,5; 4:30; Phil 1:6; 1 Thess 5:24; 2 Tim 1:12; 4:18; 1 Pet 1:3-5; 5:10; 1 Jn 2:1,2; 5:10-18; Jude 1

All references to G-d prior to the fall are plural - For example: Let "US" make man in "OUR" image.

I don't think I'll get into this. We will no doubt desagree on the meaning of the contained Scriptures because our beliefs regarding the nature of God differs greatly.

[Ray]

Yes, it is possible for each of us to be saved, and if each of us does what our Lord expects us to do we all "shall" be saved, individually, but we must individually know and do what our Lord expects from us.

Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

(2 Co 5:5)

Who wrote 2 Corinthians, and who was he writing to?

Or who is the "us" who was given the spirit which (the writer said) was a guarantee?

Jn 5:24; 6:37-40,44,47; 10:27-30; 17:8-11; Rom 5:1-5; 8:29,30; 1 Cor 1:8,9; 2 Cor 1:21,22; Eph 1:4,5; 4:30; Phil 1:6; 1 Thess 5:24; 2 Tim 1:12; 4:18; 1 Pet 1:3-5; 5:10; 1 Jn 2:1,2; 5:10-18; Jude 1

The preceding quote contains scripture references where people who wrote what they wrote were writing to the people they were writing to, and I see no reason for me to believe anyone was writing to me.

But I can still learn from what they have written, even while I know they weren't writing to me, because the words they wrote have some truths in them which apply to everyone...it's good historical information... but I need to know what God has said and will continue to say to ME.

[Snow]

Good find. Your question is legitimate and you'll continue to find contradictions because the only true word of God is the Holy Bible and despite what they tell you, the Holy Bible is the only infallible book in their "scriptures". Jesus is God and there is only one true God. Polytheism is not biblical.

How much ya wanna bet?

Maybe I'm getting skeptical in my "old age" on this board (and I'm still a young'n) but all thes new members with under 5 posts suddenly popping up claiming to be LDS and having these sincere doctrinal problems with "their religion" smack of deception to me.

S4C, if you think you've found a contradiction, why do you come to an LDS board and ask for confirmation that the LDS Church is false? Your amateur anti-Mormon concern is so old and over-used as to be, well, useless. I don't see what the heck your point was in starting this thread, other than to stir up trouble. Of course only the anti-Mormons and wolves in sheep's clothing on this board are going to agree with you. Why not go to some anti-Mormon board and eat your heart out?

Not to worry - it not you and your old age.

It's just another dishonest batch of supposed "Christians" lying about thier identity for God.

You know, sometimes I post on a sport message board or a political message board but no one there ever lies like these fake Christians do on a religion board.

Go figure.

Betcha anything I could tell you their brand of religion.