TrueBlue32 Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. What does this mean and how does it mesh with the belief that our spirits go to the spirit world after death before the resurrection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Because God exists in the "spirit world." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 What does this mean and how does it mesh with the belief that our spirits go to the spirit world after death before the resurrection?Sounds like pure LDS doctrine to me, substantiated in Alma 40:11:Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlue32 Posted September 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Because God exists in the "spirit world."He resides in Heaven, no? We sometimes use this verse a an evidence that we once existed with God prior to being born. I do not believe we lived in the Spirit World prior to coming to earth. We lived in Heaven with our Father. This verse seems to be stating that we go back to God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlue32 Posted September 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Sounds like pure LDS doctrine to me, substantiated in Alma 40:11:Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.Agreed. The BOM says the same as the Bible. We agree on that. What I am trying to understand is if we came from our Father in Heaven, then go back when we die before the resurrection, how does our doctrine of the Spirit World mesh with that. How is that different from mainstream Christianity who believe that we go to Heaven or Hell the moment we die? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlue32 Posted September 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 I like this scriptures, because it does not just tell us about where we go after we die - it also tells us where we were before we were born.Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. "return" - means to go back to a place that we have previously been to.Agreed, but how does it mesh with our belief that we go to the Spirit World after we die? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Are you assuming the word "immediately" in the verse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlue32 Posted September 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Are you assuming the word "immediately" in the verse?Yes. I believe the context indicates that seeing as it mentions the dust returns to the earth, signifying our bodies returning to the earth, which is why it is time framed before the resurrection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlue32 Posted September 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 God gave us our Spirit - He is the Father of our Spirit, why we call Him our Heavenly Father, so we will be returning home to the place where it all started with a new perspective...I think about driving back and seeing the house I grew up in - it always looks different from what you remember it being, seems smaller somehow after you grow up... I don't think Heaven will seem smaller to us though - I think our new perspective will allow us to see more of what is really there.There will be a lot of learning going on - after experiencing life, perhaps we will pay attention more? .... If I could go back to school, and do it over again, knowing what I know now, how would I change things? so we will be going back to school, this time with wisdom to listen and get a bit more out of it all I think...a second shot at being a spirit within our heavenly home... nice to get second chances.Agreed. If we do what is necessary then after the resurrection we will go back to our Father in Heaven. That is not my question. My question is do our Spirits go straight to Heaven, as this verse seems to indicate, or to the spirit world first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Something to keep in mind when reading Ecclesiastes: Ecclesiastes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlue32 Posted September 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Something to keep in mind when reading Ecclesiastes: EcclesiastesThis does not answer my question. All that tells me is that my questions concerns the most relevant part of the Book of Ecc which includes chapter 12. My questions still stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 This does not answer my question.It wasn't supposed to, it was something to consider amongst others brought up:1. That it may not be a statement of immediacy (you die and you immediately return to God).2. That it may not be a statement of return to the Celestial Kingdom/God's direct presence.Though on further review the import of the worldly perspective of Ecclesiastes is less pertinent for those last chapters as you note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlue32 Posted September 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 It wasn't supposed to, it was something to consider amongst others brought up:1. That it may not be a statement of immediacy (you die and you immediately return to God).2. That it may not be a statement of return to the Celestial Kingdom/God's direct presence.Though on further review the perspective the worldly perspective of Ecclesiastes is less pertinent for those last chapters as you note.I have considered the possibility that it was not a statement on immediacy, but when it speaks of the dust returning to the earth that can only mean one thing IMO. Our bodies going back to the earth. So this leads me to believe that it is speaking about a time before the resurrection, when our bodies will come back from the earth. The problem I have is that our doctrine tells us that our spirits go to the spirit world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 he problem I have is that our doctrine tells us that our spirits go to the spirit world.Or Paradise.....will we reside in Paradise to again be with Heavenly Father or just live in HIS heavenly abode while we await the resurrection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlue32 Posted September 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Or Paradise.....will we reside in Paradise to again be with Heavenly Father or just live in HIS heavenly abode while we await the resurrection?Paradise is a part of the spirit world. It is not where God resides. Christ went to Paradise after His death on the cross, yet had not been to see our Father until after the resurrection. So that is out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Paradise is a part of the spirit world. It is not where God resides. Christ went to Paradise after His death on the cross, yet had not been to see our Father until after the resurrection. So that is out.Yes....but so is spirit prison. Sounds like the verse Vort quoted would disagree. Perhaps, we do not see Heavenly Father in Paradise, but that is more aptlly described as HIS home than ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Paradise is a part of the spirit world. It is not where God resides. Christ went to Paradise after His death on the cross, yet had not been to see our Father until after the resurrection. So that is out.Well doesn't that answer your own question about how immediate it is?Christ wasn't immediately taken back to that god that gave him life on his death... So why would we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 (edited) I have considered the possibility that it was not a statement on immediacy, but when it speaks of the dust returning to the earth that can only mean one thing IMO. Our bodies going back to the earth. So this leads me to believe that it is speaking about a time before the resurrection, when our bodies will come back from the earth.That X is before Y and Z is after X, it does not necessarily follow that Z is before Y. That said looking into the actual uses of the colon (used in the KJV) the connection is fairly reasonable.Personally I'm inclined to go with Justice on the 'proper' rendering of the verseEdit: I realize I'm rather unfocused right now, I'm apologize as I'm on the tail end of a brain drain for the day. Edited September 2, 2011 by Dravin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlue32 Posted September 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Yes....but so is spirit prison. Sounds like the verse Vort quoted would disagree. Perhaps, we do not see Heavenly Father in Paradise, but that is more aptlly described as HIS home than ours.I believe it;s like Nibley said, After this life, you go to a place where you rest and take a breather. No judgment or anything at that time. But if you haven't been very good, you're going to worry at that time just the same. Alma makes it very clear when he talks about that to his son, as you know. The Roman term for it was refrigarium, the refrigerator, the place where you cool off, rest and relax. It was a green room. Just as we pass into this world through a Garden of Eden, we pass out of it through a garden into another world.To soften the culture shock, you go through this state. There are some very interesting writings on that. No one pays any attention to them.Nibley, Hugh W. Ancient Documents and the Pearl of Great Price. Transcript of 26 Lectures Given In An Honors Class on The Pearl of Great Price at Brigham Young University, Winter Semester 1986. Edited by Robert Smith and Robert Smythe. n.p. [FARMS], n.d. pages 11 & 12I do not believe it is were God is nor comes to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlue32 Posted September 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Well doesn't that answer your own question about how immediate it is?Christ wasn't immediately taken back to that god that gave him life on his death... So why would we?First, it is not our mission to free the dead from captivity, second I don't believe the verse I quoted was speaking of Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 he problem I have is that our doctrine tells us that our spirits go to the spirit world.Nor do I....but we do in essence return to the God that gave us life....though HE does not reside there, we are in HIS care in a place created for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Agreed. The BOM says the same as the Bible. We agree on that. What I am trying to understand is if we came from our Father in Heaven, then go back when we die before the resurrection, how does our doctrine of the Spirit World mesh with that. How is that different from mainstream Christianity who believe that we go to Heaven or Hell the moment we die?Sorry, I assumed the answer was clear from the context given in the cited chapter (Alma 40). Here is an abridgment of Alma's doctrine concerning this matter:Now there must needs be a space betwixt the time of death and the time of the resurrection. And now I would inquire what becometh of the souls of men from this time of death to the time appointed for the resurrection? [...] Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. And then [...] the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil [...] shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. [...] [T]here is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.It seems evident (to me, at least) that at death, we immediately return to God for a debriefing of sorts, at which point we gain access to our temporary postmortal waiting room, where we await the resurrection. Whether we recognize our Father as the Being he is probably depends on our own spiritual state: Those who are righteous see him as he is, because they are like him.In any case, the incomplete doctrine of "heaven and hell" believed by much of larger Christianity is of little consequence. We have been given the truth, and it is available to all who have ears to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmarch Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 What does this mean and how does it mesh with the belief that our spirits go to the spirit world after death before the resurrection?our bodies are literally composed of the dust and gas that once made up this solar system which in turned got formed into the various compounds that compose all things in this world, and when the spirit and the body seperate the body decomposes and breaks up.The spirit returns to the spirit world which is God's realm, and if one has accepted the Gospel they'll be in Christ's presence- the god who built this world under the direction God the Father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Agreed, but how does it mesh with our belief that we go to the Spirit World after we die?Some of your confusion may be that, technically, we do both.We return to the spirit world to either Paradise or Prison to await judgement. After judgement, those who are given eternal life will then return to Heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom, or as you say "heaven."My first response was a very simple answer, as I thought you were asking a simple question. From a certain perspective, heaven and the spirit world are the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p3gasus Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) What does this mean and how does it mesh with the belief that our spirits go to the spirit world after death before the resurrection?The key here is to remember that not every verse in the bible is a metaphor for something else that needs deciphered. Quite often, what is said is exactly what is meant. When this scripture refers to dust returning to dust, it is not referring to the mortal body. It quite literally means dust. The dust comes after the body decomposes completely. Depending on the area the body is buried, soil conditions, climate, and time of year this can be a matter of months or never (as is the case with mummified remains). Basically, the dust is not immediately returned to the earth upon death since it must decay completely first. Just as it takes time for our bodies to return to dust, it takes time for the soul to return to God. God understands that we need time to prepare for his arrival and that includes providing a place of rest prior to greeting him. This mortal existence is so wrought with trials, heartache, and pain that it completely wears on the soul. Anyone who has ever felt soul weary and emotionally drained can attest to this. We are also taught that to stand in the presence of God, we must strive our best to become God-like. This usually encompasses not only following commandments, reading scripture, and praying; but also caring for our bodies as if they are a temple of God. This, to me at least, suggests that our souls need to be as close to perfect as humanly possible, which would include being well rested. I have often heard the question "If Heavenly Father was to visit you today, would you feel worthy to stand in his presence?" Many of us will answer no to this question, even upon our deathbed. Since God understands how important it is for us to not only be worthy, but to also feel worthy of being in his presence, he has provided us with a rest stop of sorts in the spirit world. For many, it will be a place to learn about the gospel if a chance was never encountered during their mortal existence. For others who have heard the gospel and rejected it, it will provide a second chance to change their minds. As for the rest, it is a place for some much needed rest and relaxation for the soul on the long journey back home. Also, if you think about it and put yourself in God's place for just a brief moment. If you were the one planning a family reunion of the magnitude God is planning, and all of your children were due home all at the same time, you would need all the time you can get to plan and implement all the fine details. Since scripture tells us that God plans a large scale, grand welcome for all his faithful children, it is not unreasonable to assume that God is using this time from now until the planned judgment day and arrival of his children to get everything in order. Just what any loving and excited parent would do for their children they haven't seen in forever.The particular scripture quoted here does not say that we will return to God immediately. In fact it says the exact opposite, as our bodies must first turn to dust before the dust can return to the earth. Just my two cents worth. Hope it helps clarify things. Edited September 5, 2011 by p3gasus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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