repentance, death, and the spirit world

[Guest talianstallyun]

Thank you to all who have responded to my other questions. It has helped a lot and I really appreciate it. I have one more question I want to submit and then I'll stop torturing everybody for a while :)

I know the Lord will be the judge of all, but I know there is a doctrine for this that speaks in generalities. My question: If a member of the church, w/ a strong testimony, who has been endowed and sealed, were to die knowingly not keeping their covenants, do they have the opportunity to repent in the spirit world and go to the celestial kingdom or is the celestial kingdom forfeited because they didn't live up to their up to their covenants in mortality? If the celestial kingdom is forfeited, what is the doctrinal reason for that? That they can't fully repent for sins committed in mortality? Are there other reasons?

I've heard many quotes from church leaders about how it is much more difficult to repent in the spirit world. I've also read many warnings in the scriptures and from latter-day prophets about dying in one's sins. It's almost as if these two things would contradict eachother. And Alma 34, which is so often quoted, isn't really definitive on the matter, unless I'm missing something. Thank you in advance for your comments. Please include any quotes you can from the scriptures and church leaders. Your help means a lot.

[tubaloth]

If a member of the church, w/ a strong testimony, who has been endowed and sealed, were to die knowingly not keeping their covenants, do they have the opportunity to repent in the spirit world and go to the celestial kingdom

So your question is... If somebody makes covenants with the Lord but does not keep them, well they get to Celestial Kingdom?

As with any Judgement question, nobody knows all situation and scenarios. The problem is we don't know how far away are they of not keeping the commandments. Are we talking about not paying tithing, not going to the temple, not going to church? Or stealing?

What do we know. The spirit world is a chance for people to change. But if people have a chance to already repent and change, and that opportunity is wasted, then that is part of the Judgement?

Its hard to say how far somebody has to go for them to "forfeit" there Celestial Kingdom. But I think we can agree there is a point that can happen.

If you read Section 88, The Celestial Kingdom is for those that can keep a Celestial Law. If one can't keep such a law here (when they know of it) what makes us think they can keep such a law later on?

Either way the test of this life is designed perfectly to allow each person to grow or fall as far as they choose. If they choose is to not keep commandments/ Follow Christ here, but realize the error in the next life. That sounds like those in the Terrestial Kingdom.

[rameumptom]

God will take things on a case by case basis. There is no one perfect answer that fits all people. God will look at the background of a person's life, something we cannot do. Was the person abused? Was the person affected by serious issues not of his own making?

But there are other questions: is the person ABLE to change enough to want to dwell in the Celestial realm? Mormon 9:4 teaches us that the wicked would suffer more in God's presence than in hell!

It has to do with justification and sanctification (Romans, Galatians). Justification means that we are made guiltless by faith and repentance through the atoning blood of Christ. This is our escape from eternal hell and damnation, and opens the door to kingdoms of glory (telestial, terrestrial, celestial).

The level of glory we attain to is dependent on sanctification. As we grow in faith and righteousness, we are sanctified or sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise to higher and higher levels of holiness. Sanctification makes us holy. We go from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace, even as the mortal Christ did (D&C 93), until we receive a fullness. If we, through our choices here on earth, neglect or refuse to grow and be sanctified, we are damning or stopping our own eternal progression.

If a person refuses to keep the covenants he has made in this life, can he fully repent and become worthy of the Celestial kingdom in the Spirit World? I suppose it is possible. However, much of it depends on how much he/she is willing to change in the Spirit World. What is there in the Spirit World that will suddenly make them want to change who they are? The only strong impulse will be to repent, and that is because the wicked will be suffering UNTIL they repent, compelled to humble themselves and stop being wicked. But that is very different than humbling oneself and choosing to become holy.

Could King David, for instance, still merited the Celestial Kingdom? I think so. However, it is because of great personal humility and repentance during this life and into the Spirit World that would bring it about. The question is: how much he would change himself from being a murderer and adulterer to becoming a holy being that can bear to dwell in God's presence?

[Guest gopecon]

Based on Alma's teaching that "this life is the time to prepare to meet God" I'd have to say that generally speaking someone who has progressed that far and falls away is not eligible for exaltation. The beauty of doing temple work for people is to ensure that everyone has a fair chance - no one is condemned for not accepting something they didn't have a fair chance to accept. With this reasoning, the Spirity World allows repentance and change for those who didn't have a chance while alive. Someone who has gone all the way to the sealing room and truly had a testimony probably had their chance.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thank you to all who have responded to my other questions. It has helped a lot and I really appreciate it. I have one more question I want to submit and then I'll stop torturing everybody for a while :)

I know the Lord will be the judge of all, but I know there is a doctrine for this that speaks in generalities. My question: If a member of the church, w/ a strong testimony, who has been endowed and sealed, were to die knowingly not keeping their covenants, do they have the opportunity to repent in the spirit world and go to the celestial kingdom or is the celestial kingdom forfeited because they didn't live up to their up to their covenants in mortality? If the celestial kingdom is forfeited, what is the doctrinal reason for that? That they can't fully repent for sins committed in mortality? Are there other reasons?

I've heard many quotes from church leaders about how it is much more difficult to repent in the spirit world. I've also read many warnings in the scriptures and from latter-day prophets about dying in one's sins. It's almost as if these two things would contradict eachother. And Alma 34, which is so often quoted, isn't really definitive on the matter, unless I'm missing something. Thank you in advance for your comments. Please include any quotes you can from the scriptures and church leaders. Your help means a lot.

I think the 'doctrinal reason' comes first with understanding the purpose of this life. It is a test, a test of the desires of one's heart that is revealed when in this situation. The situation being, behind a veil and having carnal influences. If there was another way to reveal those desires and prove them then we wouldn't have to come here. So, obviously this is the only way to have that opportunity. It can't be done as a spirit alone, it has to be done in this dual being situation, part spirit, part carnal-corrupted body self, behind the veil situation. Once, that is understood fully, then one can appreciate why it has to be done in this situation alone. The test isn't a test of comprehension or logical thinking, that could have, and in essence was done before this life, part of the first estate, now, to keep our second estate we have to prove our true natures which is only revealed in this setting. (At least, most of us have to prove that. Some don't, like those that die before the age of 8, etc.)

In the spirit world, with one's spirit freshly corrupted by carnal influences which carnal influences remain in their effect on the spirit, if a person hasn't had the chance to receive the gospel the test is extended for a short period of time, otherwise the test is over at death.

Like Sheri Dew says, "This life is a test, it is only a test."

[HiJolly]

My question: If a member of the church, w/ a strong testimony, who has been endowed and sealed, were to die knowingly not keeping their covenants, do they have the opportunity to repent in the spirit world and go to the celestial kingdom

Yes.

or is the celestial kingdom forfeited because they didn't live up to their up to their covenants in mortality?

No.

:-)

HiJolly

[Guest talianstallyun]

Thank you for the responses thus far. You all bring up good points. It's interesting that in answering the main question (can a fully accountable person in this life willingly fail to strive to keep their covenants in this life and then repent in the spirit world and be exalted?) there have been two people that say yes, two that say no, and one that says maybe. Does anybody have any scripture or quotes from leaders that are a little more definitive? Is there something we are not considering? I think this is an important doctrine to understand. After all, wouldn't a person have a greater sense or urgency to repent in this life if they knew that dying in sin would cause them to lose the celestial kingdom? Thanks again for your responses!

[Vort]

Thank you for the responses thus far. You all bring up good points. It's interesting that in answering the main question (can a fully accountable person in this life willingly fail to strive to keep their covenants in this life and then repent in the spirit world and be exalted?) there have been two people that say yes, two that say no, and one that says maybe. Does anybody have any scripture or quotes from leaders that are a little more definitive? Is there something we are not considering? I think this is an important doctrine to understand. After all, wouldn't a person have a greater sense or urgency to repent in this life if they knew that dying in sin would cause them to lose the celestial kingdom? Thanks again for your responses!

I think the ultimate answer is that we cannot say. What is sure is that if you reject exaltation, then of course you will not receive exaltation. And what constitutes rejecting exaltation? That is not given us to know on an individual basis.

Surely there are some who fail to live up fully to their covenants in mortality for reasons beyond their control, and who, despite their failure, will prepare themselves sufficiently for exaltation. Surely there are some others who simply choose of their own free will not to cling to their covenants and who therefore will not receive their exaltation, as with King David. We are not in a position to know who is in which camp.

Our best possibility, then, lies in making covenants with God and then striving with all our hearts to live those covenants. We can leave to God to judge whether we, or anyone else, have sufficiently lived up to those covenants and privileges.

[rameumptom]

Quotes from General Authorities may not be helpful, either. Many of those quotes will be from their own opinion, and not necessarily based upon any key revelation received.

Perhaps the best doctrinal view we get is from D&C 138. Here are a few key selections from it:

20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;

21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.

22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;

23 And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell. (DC 138)

Here, the crucified Savior went to the Spirit World, wherein he only went to the righteous. The rest, which included both wicked and rebellious, will go to hell in Spirit Prison, where there is no peace. Alma 36 tells us more of this prison, and the only escape is to repent fully. From there, a person is made guiltless in Jesus' atonement, but they have yet to merit anything more than the telestial.

Spirit missionaries are sent to the Spirit Prison, where we find:

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.....

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

Once cleansed by Christ and rescued from hell, they then will be judged according to their works, based upon their obedience to the gospel. For those who did not have the gospel in mortality, but then accepted it, they will be judged as to what they would have done if they had the gospel in mortality.

I suggest studying D&C 76 also to see just what the requirements for each kingdom is. It will enlighten you to just what level of faithfulness a person must develop through sanctification.

[Blackmarch]

Thank you to all who have responded to my other questions. It has helped a lot and I really appreciate it. I have one more question I want to submit and then I'll stop torturing everybody for a while :)

I know the Lord will be the judge of all, but I know there is a doctrine for this that speaks in generalities. My question: If a member of the church, w/ a strong testimony, who has been endowed and sealed, were to die knowingly not keeping their covenants, do they have the opportunity to repent in the spirit world and go to the celestial kingdom or is the celestial kingdom forfeited because they didn't live up to their up to their covenants in mortality? If the celestial kingdom is forfeited, what is the doctrinal reason for that? That they can't fully repent for sins committed in mortality? Are there other reasons?

I've heard many quotes from church leaders about how it is much more difficult to repent in the spirit world. I've also read many warnings in the scriptures and from latter-day prophets about dying in one's sins. It's almost as if these two things would contradict eachother. And Alma 34, which is so often quoted, isn't really definitive on the matter, unless I'm missing something. Thank you in advance for your comments. Please include any quotes you can from the scriptures and church leaders. Your help means a lot.

As for being able to avoid being cast into outerdarkness forever? If they have not denied the spirit yes they can repent to that extent. Can they attain the celestial kingdom afterwords? I can't really find a definite yes or no statement scripture-wise.. my personal advice is don't bank on it but do everything you can to fight for being able to attain it, just because the race aint over till its over. A lot of this is in that grey area of where our power to judge is almost nonexisten as it would require theknowledge of the person's situation, intents, and true desires of their heart.

If there is a doctrinal reason that they can't repent is because they blew their chance with full knowledge ( i imagine thats what the defining point will be in judgement... to me having a full knowledge of God and the gospel would be like having the same testimony that the prophets have, then breaking those covenants, it's going to be serious)- and altho the atonement allows God and CHrist to give mercy they cannot totally do away with or change pure justice.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Blackmarch

[rameumptom]

That's because there is no firm doctrine on it. I can see scriptures interpreted in two ways: once in a kingdom, you are stuck in that kingdom forver; or that there may be a process to move from one kingdom to the next.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thank you for the responses thus far. You all bring up good points. It's interesting that in answering the main question (can a fully accountable person in this life willingly fail to strive to keep their covenants in this life and then repent in the spirit world and be exalted?) there have been two people that say yes, two that say no, and one that says maybe. Does anybody have any scripture or quotes from leaders that are a little more definitive? Is there something we are not considering? I think this is an important doctrine to understand. After all, wouldn't a person have a greater sense or urgency to repent in this life if they knew that dying in sin would cause them to lose the celestial kingdom? Thanks again for your responses!

I think the people that are saying "yes" are also saying that God will take all variables into consideration. If you are saying there are no variables and you are just referring to the absolute case of someone being fully accountable and having full knowledge and they still decide to not keep their covenants, then absolutely no, they will not have a chance to repent later.

The problem is you, nor anyone is going to be able to look at someone and say for certain that that individual has full knowledge and claim to know all of their variables and situation. I think the people that say "yes" are just expressing the fact that God will take all those variables that are unknown to us into account. Someone, to us, that may seem like they have all their ducks in a row may not really for whatever reason, maybe their hippocampus starts to degenerate at a young age and so they can't remember everything they learned in their youth and so they make mistakes towards the end of their life. Or maybe they were involved in an accident and destroy part of their basal frontal lobes and so they become dissinhibited. Or they have bilateral herpes encephalitis and their frontal temporal lobes are injured and they get Kluver Bucy syndrome so they are hypersexual. etc. etc.

The only way to 'check your grade' so to speak is someone who has had their calling and election made sure. Shy of that, we don't know our grade until all the variables have been accounted for. We cannot understand all the variables right now.

[Seminarysnoozer]

That's because there is no firm doctrine on it. I can see scriptures interpreted in two ways: once in a kingdom, you are stuck in that kingdom forver; or that there may be a process to move from one kingdom to the next.

The doctrine is as simple as knowing that this life is a chance to prove ourselves. We were sent here to prove ourselves. If one believes in that doctrine then it is obvious that that is what this life is for. If this life is not for proving ourselves then possibly there would be chances to prove ourselves somewhere else and make a change. Is this life a test or is it not?

Putting that together with knowing that we matured as spirits before coming here then what more is there to change? There is nothing more that a person is going to change about themselves in the next life. If you (or anyone) believe that we have fully matured as spirits before this life, living thousands and thousands of years in the presence of God, what possibly more could change about our true natures that would change our Kingdom designation. There was no more growth or development in the pre-mortal existence that would have made our choices here different if we were to re-live this life.

If, in other words, we were to run the program over again a thousand times, it would come out with the same results every time, taking into account all the variables, which God can do. To God, this isn't like he has to redo the experiment 1000 times to make sure the outcome is correct.

I think the doctrine is solid in those three ideas, that this life is a test and that we were fully matured as spirits before coming here and that God takes into account all the variables. If one believes in the pre-mortal life and what happened there and understands the purpose of this life and believes in a just God, what more doctrine do we need?

The only way to say that there is a chance to switch Kingdoms later is to believe that either we weren't yet mature enough or that this life really wasn't a test, just a dry run or that God is not just. What other variable could be missing to not make that permanent designation?

[rameumptom]

SS,

The issue is there are too many assumptions to know for sure. Have we really "matured" as spirits in the premortal existence? If so, then why have a test?

That the description of outer darkness in D&C 76 states that the end thereof no man knows, suggests that perhaps there is even an end to Perdition for individuals. Whether that end is because they repent and are redeemed, or whether it means their spirits eventually are broken back down into basic components of matter and so no longer are a sentient being, we do not know.

There have been GAs, such as Elder Talmage, who have thought that the issue of moving up in kingdoms is an unknown quantity, is something important to consider. Yet, we do not know.

[Seminarysnoozer]

SS,

The issue is there are too many assumptions to know for sure. Have we really "matured" as spirits in the premortal existence? If so, then why have a test?

That the description of outer darkness in D&C 76 states that the end thereof no man knows, suggests that perhaps there is even an end to Perdition for individuals. Whether that end is because they repent and are redeemed, or whether it means their spirits eventually are broken back down into basic components of matter and so no longer are a sentient being, we do not know.

There have been GAs, such as Elder Talmage, who have thought that the issue of moving up in kingdoms is an unknown quantity, is something important to consider. Yet, we do not know.

Thanks for your response.

The answer is because the test is not as a "spirit" alone. The test is a test of faith which requires being mortal and absent from God. In Kingdom assignment we are not under the influences of a veil and carnal natures that allow for a test. Unless one thinks that a person could die again, i.e. be born into mortality again, to die. But because the spirit has matured, when put into the test it's influence would be all it could be at the time of testing. The responses and choices would be the same even if the spirit waited a few more thousand years.

Gospel Principles says: "Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left Him for a time. He wanted us to develop the godlike qualities that He has. To do this, we needed to leave our premortal home to be tested and to gain experience. Our spirits needed to be clothed with physical bodies. We would need to leave our physical bodies at death and reunite with them in the Resurrection. Then we would receive immortal bodies like that of our Heavenly Father. If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our Heavenly Father has received. (See D&C 93:30–34.)"

The test requires mortality. After resurrection and assignment to a kingdom we will never be mortal again, therefore we will never be tested again. I think that is pretty clear. I don't think that is unknown.

[rameumptom]

The only requirement of mortality is to obtain a body. What of all the new born babies that die after just a few hours of life? They really have not had a test in life. Yet, they are promised exaltation. Somehow the test in mortality has nothing, or little, to do with the situation of them gaining exaltation.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The only requirement of mortality is to obtain a body. What of all the new born babies that die after just a few hours of life? They really have not had a test in life. Yet, they are promised exaltation. Somehow the test in mortality has nothing, or little, to do with the situation of them gaining exaltation.

Yes, but then that supports the idea that we don't need to have another chance to prove our true natures. For those people there was enough proven before they came here. They don't need the chance to prove it. That supports the idea that the decision of where we are assigned is mostly done, this is just the final cut, so to speak. God being a just God allows us to prove our nature if it is not so obvious, for some. Of course, there are many chosen for specific callings that come to fulfill those assignments that would have otherwise been like those babies.

I think that supports what I am saying that our true natures won't change much, if any, from our already matured spiritual selves, that God is very familiar with. Our faithful or not so faithful nature will not change after Kingdom assignment and therefore there would be no reason to change Kingdoms afterward.

Then you would disagree with Sherri Dew's statement; "This life is a test, this is only a test."?

[rameumptom]

No, it doesn't "prove" anything. It only "proves" that through the atonement of Christ, little children who die are exalted. Anything beyond that is speculation.

Last I looked, Sherri Dew was never sustained by me as a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. Nor has any of her words been submitted as a new section in the D&C or as an Official Declaration.

Our natures may change drastically. Just look at the changes that occurred in the lives of Alma and Paul. I've seen many people who have had drastic changes, in both directions of spirituality. I've seen the town drunk become a branch president. I've seen a bishop run off with the "other woman."

Yet, we also have teachings from President Faust and President Packer concerning the wayward children of faithful parents. The parents have been told in General Conference by both of these brethren that if they faithfully serve and pray for their children, their children will return to them, either in this life or the next. In D&C 132, it tells us that those who have been sealed in the temple and sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise will never lose that exaltation as long as they do not commit murder. IOW, they can then commit adultery and still will be exalted after suffering the buffetings of Satan for a time in the Spirit World.

Sounds like teachings and doctrines like this tend to "disprove" your theory.

[Seminarysnoozer]

No, it doesn't "prove" anything. It only "proves" that through the atonement of Christ, little children who die are exalted. Anything beyond that is speculation.

Last I looked, Sherri Dew was never sustained by me as a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. Nor has any of her words been submitted as a new section in the D&C or as an Official Declaration.

Our natures may change drastically. Just look at the changes that occurred in the lives of Alma and Paul. I've seen many people who have had drastic changes, in both directions of spirituality. I've seen the town drunk become a branch president. I've seen a bishop run off with the "other woman."

Yet, we also have teachings from President Faust and President Packer concerning the wayward children of faithful parents. The parents have been told in General Conference by both of these brethren that if they faithfully serve and pray for their children, their children will return to them, either in this life or the next. In D&C 132, it tells us that those who have been sealed in the temple and sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise will never lose that exaltation as long as they do not commit murder. IOW, they can then commit adultery and still will be exalted after suffering the buffetings of Satan for a time in the Spirit World.

Sounds like teachings and doctrines like this tend to "disprove" your theory.

I am talking about one's true nature, their spiritual self. Here we are dual beings, part carnal human body with carnal influences (the town drunk) and part spirit. I am only referring to one's true nature, not the temporary testing situation nature. In those people, their true natures are shown by their actions just like the rest of us. I cannot, nor anyone, judge what change took place in their true nature (their spiritual self) unless one somehow has the ability to see how they were before this life. Everyone here, though, chose God's plan, so our spirits by nature are all good.

If you are looking at the change that takes place from a fallen state to one of spiritual harmony, that is something different than what I was talking about. Wayward children is also an example of the fallen state those souls are in during this testing situation that doesn't fully show their spiritual self. I don't have the power to see or measure where they are spiritually. It is only at judgement that God can take into account all those variables of what earthly "thorns in the flesh", earthly challenges, carnal natures, "talents" given, etc. play a role in where a person starts in this life and finishes. A change of heart refers to following carnal natures first then listening to one's spiritual influences over those carnal influences. But the spirit never changed its "true nature" it was just revealed by that "change of heart". That is what I meant by proof. To prove, to satisfy the eternal laws of justice requiring proof. (Not proving my theory - not sure where you got that from)

Don't get me wrong, I think a person's spiritual nature can change in this life but not by much. That, to me, is more along the lines of refinement not a change of their true nature, we all accepted God's plan before coming here, we all kept our first estate. Now we are tested with the second estate.

My question to you about Sherri Dew was not whether she was sustained by you but a question of your opinion about the statement, way to dodge the question. If you don't want it from her then I'll give it to you from Abraham; chapter 3, "25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever."

Is that a better source for you as to the purpose of this life?

[Traveler]

One of the expressions about the “final judgment” that really bothers me - to the point that I believe it to be 100% completely false - is that G-d alone will judge. This would imply that no one knows what the result of the judgment will be until G-d pronounces it.

In contrast to this silly idea - I would submit that there are no secrets at all, that in any way are associated with the “final judgment”. I submit that long before we go to stand before G-d - that we (and likely everyone else) will know exactly what the result will be - and why. I submit that the result is not nor is it intended to be that difficult to figure out. I submit that the results will not be stupid but that the result will make sense and in truth be very logical and extremely EASY to understand. The reason that we are even told about the “final judgment” by G-d is so that we will know about the final judgment - Dah!

The reason someone will be in the Celestial Kingdom or any other kingdom is because they really like being a part of what is going on there and doing that kind of “thing”. Does anyone really believe that if someone wants to do good divine things that G-d is going to stop them? If so - I would really like to know why you think G-d is like that!!!!

Come on people!! Get with the program!!! If you want to be a part of G-d’s work and his glory and his people - quit sitting around and wondering this and wondering that. Quit wondering and get involved doing good with G-d - If you do not know any good things to be about doing - then I guess the next best thing is to speculate about what may be alright - spend the next 20 billion years debating and speculating such things - if that is what you desire and like most - why not? As my dad always said - you are what you have spent eternity becoming - quit acting surprised.

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

SS,

Our "true nature" (whatever that means) includes having a physical body! D&C tells us that a fullness of joy only comes from spirit and body being together, not apart.

I believe that the atonement of Christ becomes almost meaningless if we take what you say to heart. Christ's atonement, throughout all scripture, shows that all mankind are invited to Christ and be saved. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that mankind are pretty much set, with little change capable for all/most of them. Why go through the pains of this life, if there is only risk on the downside of things?

If you are 99% chance of only getting a telestial reward, why suffer here for a 1% chance at a Terrestrial or Celestial? While I believe one must be valiant to be Celestial, or honorable to be Terrestrial (D&C 76), I do not believe it is as difficult as you seem to claim.

The physical body infused into a "mature spirit" (whatever that means) creates new attributes that the spirit never had nor experienced before. It is like an Oxygen atom fusing to a couple hydrogen atoms. While it is still an Oxygen atom, it is so much more. It has had immense change occur to it as part of a molecule. It is no longer by itself, but part of a new creation with entirely new and different capabilities.

So it is when body and spirit combine. Any spirit, mature or not, is not ready for the experience it has in this life. We see "great and noble spirits" (Abr 3), who are called "the Gods" (Abr 4-5) who come to this earth and sin, whether Adam, Noah, Moses, or Joseph Smith.

While you may be correct in your ideas, I am not convinced. There is so much scriptural evidence to the contrary.

[Seminarysnoozer]

SS,

Our "true nature" (whatever that means) includes having a physical body! D&C tells us that a fullness of joy only comes from spirit and body being together, not apart.

I believe that the atonement of Christ becomes almost meaningless if we take what you say to heart. Christ's atonement, throughout all scripture, shows that all mankind are invited to Christ and be saved. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that mankind are pretty much set, with little change capable for all/most of them. Why go through the pains of this life, if there is only risk on the downside of things?

If you are 99% chance of only getting a telestial reward, why suffer here for a 1% chance at a Terrestrial or Celestial? While I believe one must be valiant to be Celestial, or honorable to be Terrestrial (D&C 76), I do not believe it is as difficult as you seem to claim.

The physical body infused into a "mature spirit" (whatever that means) creates new attributes that the spirit never had nor experienced before. It is like an Oxygen atom fusing to a couple hydrogen atoms. While it is still an Oxygen atom, it is so much more. It has had immense change occur to it as part of a molecule. It is no longer by itself, but part of a new creation with entirely new and different capabilities.

So it is when body and spirit combine. Any spirit, mature or not, is not ready for the experience it has in this life. We see "great and noble spirits" (Abr 3), who are called "the Gods" (Abr 4-5) who come to this earth and sin, whether Adam, Noah, Moses, or Joseph Smith.

While you may be correct in your ideas, I am not convinced. There is so much scriptural evidence to the contrary.

We are to be saved from our fallen state though. We are not saved from our spiritual state. That would not make sense. The atonement is nothing without the fall.

When I say 'mature', which is how gospel principles puts it, I am suggesting there is no more spiritual growth when the spirit is by itself. Again, if you think there could be more growth from a mortal state then you are suggesting the idea of reincarnation, which we don't believe in. Upon resurrection are body will not die again. There can be spiritual growth from a fallen state when the body is combined with the spirit. But one has to specify what state the spirit is in to discuss this. You keep jumping to quotes about our current state, I don't disagree with that. I am just saying that our spirit alone, before coming here, learned all it could and prepared all it could. There is no room for further preparation, it did all it could. And so our spiritual natures will not change.

David O. McKay taught; "Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body. In declaring this fact the scriptures are very explicit:

“And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” [Abraham 5:7.]

Man’s body, therefore, is but the tabernacle in which his spirit dwells. Too many, far too many, are prone to regard the body as the man, and consequently to direct their efforts to the gratifying of the body’s pleasures, its appetites, its desires, its passions. Too few recognize that the real man is an immortal spirit, which [is] “intelligence or the light of truth,” [see D&C 93:29] animated as an individual entity before the body was begotten, and that this spiritual entity with all its distinguishing traits will continue after the body ceases to respond to its earthly environment. Said the Savior:

“I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.” (John 16:28.)

and "Man’s earthly existence is but a test as to whether he will concentrate his efforts, his mind, his soul, upon things which contribute to the comfort and gratification of his physical nature, or whether he will make as his life’s pursuit the acquisition of spiritual qualities.

“Every noble impulse, every unselfish expression of love; every brave suffering for the right; every surrender of self to something higher than self; every loyalty to an ideal; every unselfish devotion to principle; every helpfulness to humanity; every act of self-control; every fine courage of the soul, undefeated by pretense or policy, but by being, doing, and living of good for the very good’s sake—that is spirituality.” 8

Generally there is in man a divinity which strives to push him onward and upward. We believe that this power within him is the spirit that comes from God. Man lived before he came to this earth, and he is here now to strive to perfect the spirit within. At sometime in his life, every man is conscious of a desire to come in touch with the Infinite. His spirit reaches out for God. This sense of feeling is universal, and all men ought to be, in deepest truth, engaged in the same great work—the search for and the development of spiritual peace and freedom. 9

The choice is given, whether we live in the physical world as animals, or whether we use what earth offers us as a means of living in the spiritual world that will lead us back into the presence of God."

What I mean by 'true nature' is our level of spirituality, how valiant we are that has to be shown, in some, this way, in a test situation, behind the veil of our carnal body. As David O. Mckay puts it whether we live in the physical world as animals or whether we use what earth offers us as a means of living in the spiritual world." How much one chooses spirituality over physical carnality is one's "true nature".

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe that the atonement of Christ becomes almost meaningless if we take what you say to heart. Christ's atonement, throughout all scripture, shows that all mankind are invited to Christ and be saved. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that mankind are pretty much set, with little change capable for all/most of them. Why go through the pains of this life, if there is only risk on the downside of things?

If you are 99% chance of only getting a telestial reward, why suffer here for a 1% chance at a Terrestrial or Celestial? While I believe one must be valiant to be Celestial, or honorable to be Terrestrial (D&C 76), I do not believe it is as difficult as you seem to claim.

Why are you suggesting that there is a downside to the Telestial Kingdom of glory? The Telestial kingdom is a kingdom of glory and is a HUGE step up from where we were before. The atonement allows for that too. Is it worth going through this life to get into the Telestial Kingdom? YES! It is that much more worth getting into the Celestial Kingdom? or course but the the Telestial Kingdom is not a "downside" in the least bit.

The ability to make correct choices only strengthens our ability to make correct choices in the future. Opposition is required to make the correct choice. So, the reason we go through the pains of this life is to move to higher ground, which includes the Telestial Kingdom.

I never said anything about difficulty. I think it will be just as easy for the valiant person to be valiant in this life as it is for the honorable person to be honorable. It is with the same ease. What would be very difficult though, is the less valiant person to be more valiant in this life. I don't think any of us that kept the first estate looked at this life in the pre-mortal life and said, 'cool, I finally get a chance to change my ways'. I think instead we said something along the lines of 'yeah, I get a chance to move forward and upward in the end'.

[mikbone]

D&c 132:19

[Guest pogi]

I have a question about D&C 132: 19. What exactly does it mean to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise? Is this the sealing of husband and wife in the temple, or is this in reference to the calling and election made sure?