What Lies Ahead...

[LeKook]

I never quite understood why some folks talk about the last days, end of the world, etc., like it's something wonderful. Oh, yeah, I know, "What happens AFTER will be wonderful," they say. Yeah, maybe, but that's not what doomsayers are saying out loud, is it?

Just pondering here.

[annewandering]

I would like the after part first to be honest. To me the bad part is I know I won't get to the good part alive, lol. so that kinda wrecks the fun part of it.

[LeKook]

I would like the after part first to be honest. To me the bad part is I know I won't get to the good part alive, lol. so that kinda wrecks the fun part of it.

EXACTLY.

One of the interesting (weird!) teachings of the JWs was that you should live worthy to survive Armageddon. I'm like, "WHAT?". I can barely survive a headcold. Armageddon? Are they kidding me? I'd really want to deal with the aftermath of that?

[pam]

It is nowhere written that Joseph Smith's church, which he established (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) would continue to grow uninterrupted until it sent missionaries to the whole earth. That is how many members interpret it- but that is not what the scriptures teach us.

I totally disagree with your interpretation of this scripture. One of the signs of the last days is that the gospel will be preached to all the world. See D&C 90:11, Matt. 24:14 and (JS) Matt 1:31.

Wait..You are disagreeing with your own statement that you previously made?

*edit* Never mind. You are quoting without using quotes. Very very confusing.

Edited October 16, 2011 by pam

[Matthew0059]

The stone that was carved from the Mountain without hands IS the Chuch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

It will carry all before it. I don't know where you are getting any interpretation other than this. See Encyclopedia of Mormonism Vol. 1 P 355.

I can't find a copy of the Encyclopedia of Mormonism online, and don't have a copy in my house. If you could copy/paste the quote that would be great.

I get my understanding of the issue from various sources. Again, I suggest you google "joseph smith kingdom of daniel" and see how our Dispensational Lawgiver used the term. At the time of Joseph's death, he had set up what was called the "Council of Fifty" which was to help with the political side of the Church and to help establish the Kingdom. It was Joseph's understanding that it was to be invaluable in the coming forth of and maintaining the Kingdom of Heaven. Unfortunately, it eventually disappeared, and its last recorded meeting was in 1884 (6 years before the Manifesto).

During Joseph Smith's life, the Kingdom of Heaven (Zion) and Kingdom of God (Church) would have been the same, as the former grows out of the latter. However, as I said before, the two are actually different entities.

From Elder James Talmage:

“Such was the prayer, such is the prayer, prescribed for this people to pray, not to utter in words only, not to say only, but to pray—that the Kingdom of God may roll forth in the earth to prepare the earth for the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven. That provision in the Lord’s prayer, ‘Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’ has not been abrogated. We are praying for the Kingdom of Heaven to come, and are endeavoring to prepare the earth for its coming. The Kingdom of God, already set up upon the earth, does not aspire to temporal domination among the nations. It seeks not to overthrow any existing forms of government; it does not profess to exercise control in matters that pertain to the governments of the earth, except by teaching correct principles and trying to get men to live according to the principles of true government, before the Kingdom of Heaven shall come and be established upon the earth with a King at the head. But when He comes, He shall rule and reign, for it is His right.” (In Conference Report, Apr. 1916, pp. 128–29.)

So, it could be said that the Kingdom of Daniel (or, the Kingdom that Daniel saw roll forth as a stone cut "without hands") is both the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God. However, the Kingdom of God (Church) doesn't seek for governmental power; it will not break down the governments of the Earth. The Kingdom of Heaven (Zion) will eventually have the honor of having it said it is the greatest of all the nations.

This [referring to the loss of freedom over the past 200/100 years] of course is totally untrue.

The abolition of slavery was a positive thing, I'll give you that. However, a much more insidious slavery, of people to the government, has crept in (more particularly since the end of the Civil War- hence I stressed the past 100 years).

The income tax is entirely unconstitutional- that's why the 16th amendment had to be added, to justify it (thank the "Progressives" for the "Progressive income tax"). The Revolutionary War was essentially fought over "socage", which was the right of English Freemen (of which the American Colonies consisted of) to own their land forever once they obtained it- only jury of peers could deny a Freeman of that right. However, the introduction of the property tax nullified that doctrine (which is of God) by saying that all American citizens are merely "borrowing" that land from their government, and failure to pay taxes could result in said citizens being evicted from their land. King Noah levied a tax of 20% on his people, and it was accounted as wickedness to him. Currently, after all taxes are spoken for, Americans can pay (depending on where they live) well over that (some sources say 30-50%). Europeans also pay exorbitantly high amounts. Almost the entire "western world" does. The tax system is the best way to keep a population "in check" (or "enslaved") because you can legally rob them of their property if they "step out of line". We see the effects of such a system on this board, where we can't talk about political candidates because of the More Good Foundation's 501©3 status.

Elder Bednar also talked about secret combinations (he spoke specifically of the ulterior motives of gay rights' groups during Prop. 8) seeking to take away religious rights.

There is not really any support for such fantastic conspiracy theories.

Except, of course, for the words of Presidents Benson and McKay and the books and people they endorsed publicly via General Conference. And the Ether 8:23-25, where Moroni says that we'll find that great and evil secret combinations are amongst us and may get above us if us (the Gentiles) don't repent (which we didn't, and still aren't). And the fact that the reason the prophets suddenly stopped talking about the threat of Communism was because they were "tweaking the tail of the beast" which was threatening to destroy the Church.

The specifics- of who the Whore and the Beast really are, the nature of the secret combinations, etc.- can be up for interpretation. However, no one can deny that they do exist- unless they want to deny the Book of Mormon and the official teachings of the Church.

[Matthew0059]

Where do you get the idea that we, as a church, have failed to bring about the Kingdom of Zion?

The Kingdom of Zion is a political entity, replete with its own laws and government. If the Church brought it forth, where does it currently exist?

The Church tried- first in 1832- and failed because of wickedness amongst the Saints.

D&C 101, 1-8:

1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—

2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

3 Yet I will own them, and they shall be mine in that day when I shall come to make up my jewels.

4 Therefore, they must needs be chastened and tried, even as Abraham, who was commanded to offer up his only son.

5 For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified.

6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them; therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

7 They were slow to hearken unto the voice of the Lord their God; therefore, the Lord their God is slow to hearken unto their prayers, to answer them in the day of their trouble.

8 In the day of their peace they esteemed lightly my counsel; but, in the day of their trouble, of necessity they feel after me.

The Missouri Mormons were eventually driven out- the continuation of persecutions that came about as a result of the Saints' wickedness (or in other words, wickedness among the Saints- they were not all wicked).

Where do you get the idea that some other group is going to come forth to take over because we failed?

This is really a two-pronged question- why would we (Ephraim) be rejected, and why would another take over?

Brigham was not shy about his frustration with the LDS people in general. Regarding their refusal to wholly accept the Adam-God doctrine, he said

"Some years ago, I advanced a doctrine with regard to Adam being our Father and God. That [doctrine] will be a curse to many of the Elders of Israel, because of their folly with regard to it. They yet grovel in darkness, and will. It is one of the most glorious revealments of the economy of Heaven, yet the world hold it [in] derision. Had I revealed the doctrine of Baptism for the dead instead of Joseph Smith, there are men around me who would have ridiculed the idea until doomsday, but they are ignorant and stupid like the dumb ***." (10/8/1861, Manuscript addresses of Brigham Young)

Joseph Smith, in regards to the blindness of the minds of the people, said:

"[(Apostle Samuel Richards on Nov. 13, 1852, recorded in the Millennial Star, 14:393-395.)] We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them [even] if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves."

And:

"Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Five 1842-43, p.237-38. President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel - said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church - that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls - APPLIED IT TO THE PRESENT STATE OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS - SAID IF THE PEOPLE DEPARTED FROM THE LORD, THEY MUST FALL - THAT THEY WERE DEPENDING ON THE PROPHET, HENCE WERE DARKENED IN THEIR MINDS, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy."

Now, as for the quotes where Brigham Young says that it will be Manasseh (the Indians) who will ultimately be privileged to bring forth Zion, I ran across those a while ago and I'm embarrassed to say I can't find them. I've just spend about 15 minutes looking and can't find them; I will continue to look when I have more time and will get back to you on that.

However, the quotes from Brigham Young give pause for thought.

[ConvinceTheWorld]

"Some years ago, I advanced a doctrine with regard to Adam being our Father and God. That [doctrine] will be a curse to many of the Elders of Israel, because of their folly with regard to it. They yet grovel in darkness, and will. It is one of the most glorious revealments of the economy of Heaven, yet the world hold it [in] derision. Had I revealed the doctrine of Baptism for the dead instead of Joseph Smith, there are men around me who would have ridiculed the idea until doomsday, but they are ignorant and stupid like the dumb ***." (10/8/1861, Manuscript addresses of Brigham Young)

I can relate to his fustrations.....

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/41301-adam-god-theory.html

Ridiculed till doomsday.....

"For if body came into being by spirit what a marvel! But if spirit came into being by body what a marvelous marvel!! for ye already know God has a body of flesh and bones!"

I never quite understood why some folks talk about the last days, end of the world, etc., like it's something wonderful. Oh, yeah, I know, "What happens AFTER will be wonderful," they say. Yeah, maybe, but that's not what doomsayers are saying out loud, is it?

Just pondering here.

You that have faith to look with fearless eyes

Beyond the tragedy of a world in strife,

And know that out of death and night shall rise

The dawn of a better, happier life.

Rejoice, whatever anguish is still in your heart,

That God has given you with priceless power

To live in these great times and have your part

In Freedom's crowning hour.

That you may tell your children who see the light

High in the heavens--Their heritage to take--

"I saw the powers of darkness take their flight:

I saw the morning break."

Edited October 16, 2011 by ConvinceTheWorld

[james12]

Matthew, True saints in the early days of this dispensation failed to bring forth Zion. However we should look closely at some of the revelations. D&C 105:9-10, "Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion—That they themselves may be prepared, and that my people may be taught more perfectly, and have experience, and know more perfectly concerning their duty, and the things which I require at their hands." And again in D&C 105:34, "And let those commandments which I have given concerning Zion and her law be executed and fulfilled, after her redemption." These words clearly indicate that the saints were to wait until they were more fully prepared. Not that the opportunity had passed those of the tribe of Ephraim forever.

Specifically about the building of the New Jerusalem we see that the righteous Gentiles and the remnant of Jacob shall work together. In 3 Ne 21:14,22-23: Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent...But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance; And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.

I believe the time will come for both Ephraim and Manasseh to more fully build Zion when they truly desire it and are willing to unite and sacrifice for it. Until that day we must wait.

[mrmarklin]

Matthew0059,

Here is an excerpt from last year's Sunday School manual of the Old testament:

"President Kimball taught: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was restored in 1830. … This is the kingdom, set up by the God of heaven, that would never be destroyed nor superseded, and the stone cut out of the mountain without hands that would become a great mountain and would fill the whole earth” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1976, 10; or Ensign, May 1976, 8–9).

• What did Daniel prophesy concerning the Church in the latter days? (See Daniel 2:34–35, 44.)

a. Be “cut out without hands” (Daniel 2:34).

b. Become “a great mountain, and [fill] the whole earth” (Daniel 2:35).

c. “Never be destroyed” (Daniel 2:44).

d. “Not be left [given] to other people” (Daniel 2:44).

e. “Consume all [other] kingdoms” (Daniel 2:44).

f. “Stand for ever” (Daniel 2:44).

• What did it mean that the stone would be “cut out without hands”? (See Daniel 2:34. It would not be man-made.) How is the restored Church of Jesus Christ like a stone cut out without hands?

Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin said: “Our Lord and Savior stands at the head of this church and directs it through his servants. This is the Lord’s church; it is not a church of men” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 4; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 5).

• How is Daniel’s prophecy that the Church will “fill the whole earth” and “never be destroyed” being fulfilled today? (You may want to refer to the second chart in the attention activity.)

President Gordon B. Hinckley testified: “This Church is true. It will weather every storm that beats against it. It will outlast every critic who rises to mock it. It was established by God our Eternal Father for the blessing of His sons and daughters of all generations. It carries the name of Him who stands as its head, even the Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world. It is governed and moves by the power of the priesthood. It sends forth to the world another witness of the divinity of the Lord. Be faithful, my friends. Be true. Be loyal to the great things of God which have been revealed in this dispensation” (“Keep the Faith,” Ensign, Sept. 1985, 6)."

Note the quote by President Kimball.

This church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will roll forward and fill the earth. I have never heard another interpretation in any manual, speech or anything else that contradicts this.

As far as I'm concerned, these ideas appearing in the Gospel Doctrine manual taught to all the church, is tantamount to doctrine.

Edited October 16, 2011 by mrmarklin

[Justice]

Try the last half of Mormon 5, culminating with the last verse.

[Guest]

You lost me at Adam-God (actually, you started losing me when the alarmist rhetoric began a few pages back). Honestly, we have enough to learn about the nature of Christ and how to be like Him, and how to keep our covenants, without digging up old unaccepted opinions (notice I did not say doctrine) and trying to convince people that they are true. Maybe do some reading about keeping your eye on the mark.

[Matthew0059]

mrmalkin:

I accept that later Brethren have taught that the Church, as we understand it, is the Kingdom of Daniel, and that it now constitutes doctrine, essentially. I do not dispute the idea that the Church is a part of said kingdom. My contention has been, from the beginning, that the early Brethren did not teach such a doctrine and that I don't believe it. Believe it or not, "official" Mormon doctrine has not continued in one happy line from Joseph to us but has fluctuated greatly in some areas. Later prophets taught things that the Prophet Joseph said were blatantly untrue.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Matthew0059

[Matthew0059]

You lost me at Adam-God (actually, you started losing me when the alarmist rhetoric began a few pages back). Honestly, we have enough to learn about the nature of Christ and how to be like Him, and how to keep our covenants, without digging up old unaccepted opinions (notice I did not say doctrine) and trying to convince people that they are true.

The quote regarding Adam-God was illustrative, to show how there are many in the Church who refuse to accept meat for various reasons. Unfortunately, such refusal to seek after meat has now become the official modus operandi. Notice, too, that the manifestation of full spiritual gifts is almost never seen anymore in the Church, and we have learned to accept lesser manifestations (learning new languages in the MTC as the "gift of tongues", modern medical science as the "gift of healing", etc.) as the extent of said gifts.

It is easy for the modern member, who has only exercised his spiritual gifts a little, to believe that Brigham Young was a crazy man who lived a long time ago, who held all sorts of false ideas and bad notions. However, Brigham Young and the other early Brethren who believed the deeper doctrines of the Kingdom were the closest to Joseph while he was alive, and often were on the "inner circle".

[Matthew0059]

Why does this all matter? More specifically, why am I spending so much energy trying to share things that are being rejected out of hand?

Because "what lies ahead" is more terrible and shaking than most realize. There is a great sifting coming, first in the Church and then those outside of it, that will separate the wheat from the tares. As man and God reckon time, this sifting is not far off at all. You will see many members who appeared wholesome and faithful tear themselves away from the Church. You will maybe see some of the Quorum of the Twelve fall away into apostasy. The Church itself will be greatly afflicted and persecuted and plagued, and the true Saints will be greatly distressed.

Our testimonies will be tried and tested, and all things not founded upon the Rock of Christ will be shaken and destroyed. Most current members are under the influence of the anti-Christ, and Satan will make a very convincing, but ultimately untrue, case that Joseph Smith was not a prophet, the Book of Mormon is not real; that God Himself does not exist, or at least delays His coming until the end of the world.

However, at the end of this great persecution, we will again be wholesome and clean before God. Paradise will again come to the Earth, the New Jerusalem will be established, and God Himself will reign!

I testify that it is possible to be cleansed entirely from sin while living on this planet; it is possible to be sanctified in the blood of Christ. Elder Bednar taught this principle with the "parable of the pickle". It is possible to see the very face of God while yet alive- just as Mahonri Moriancumer, Moses, Abraham, Adam, Enoch, Noah, Joseph Smith, and the other holy prophets have done. The only thing keeping someone from this glorious event is himself, and his wickedness. If we seek to utilize the Atoning Blood for ourselves, we will one day receive the great desires of our hearts.

[RescueMom]

I do believe the shifting of the wheat and tares is beginning to happen, and it will only be those who have a strong testimony in the Atonement of Christ that will make it (notice I did not say testimony of anything else). If our foundation in the Atonement is not strong, everything else will be driven from us. If a person is going to church for societal reasons they will be left behind. In the end all that we will have left to cling to is the Atonement, the Savior will be all that saves us and we must have faith in him to endure what is coming, because all else will fail, only He and His Atonement will stand the storm that is just beginning to rage.

[lds2]

I feel strongly that we are being prepared for something ahead...I believe the new Providentliving.org site says so if you really look at what is emphasized.

The emphasis going in tells us to read President Uchtdorf's where he tells the Priesthood of the Church to study the June Ensign, Provident Living/handbook references found there. The first emphasis after the link to his talk is "self-reliance".

When you go into that area you will find an emphasis on finances, emergency preparedness and employment.

If you press on emergency preparedness you will see the need for a 3 month supply of food, water reserves and some money set aside for emergencies.

If you press on "Home Storage" you will find the emphasis is on "Preparing Every Needful Thing" and that it is a COMMANDMENT from HEAVENLY FATHER including longer-term home storage.

If you look to the right you will see that the pamphlet formerly known as "All Is Safely Gathered In" has been changed to "Prepare Every Needful Thing" so as to reflect Heavenly Father's Commandment/Warning.

If you look at the articles emphasized in the right hand column you will find the words of Bishop McMullin with the warnings and blessings of home storage, President Hinckley's words about a financial storm ahead with the need for some reserves, and an additional address warning from the First Presidency to have home storage.

So what lies ahead...to me there are clear signs that we will have financial, employment and additional calamity needs as they talk of potential personal and widespread calamities in the future.

Edited October 18, 2011 by lds2

[lds2]

Our Gift to Him

Difficult days are ahead. Sin is on the increase. Paul foresaw that members of the Church would endure persecution (see 2 Timothy 3:1–13; D&C 112:24–26). Peter counseled, “If any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf” (1 Peter 4:16). As Jesus descended below all things in order to rise above all things, He expects us to follow His example. Yoked with Him, each of us can rise above all of our challenges, no matter how difficult they may be (see Matthew 11:29–30).... And His gift to us will be the peace of knowing that we are prepared to meet Him, whenever that time comes....The fulness of the Master’s ministry lies in the future. The prophecies of His Second Coming have yet to be fulfilled. At Christmas, of course, we focus on His birth. And to this world He will come again....As a special witness of His holy name, I testify that Jesus the Christ is the divine Son of the living God. He will love you, lift you, and manifest Himself unto you if you will love Him and keep His commandments (see John 14:21). Indeed, wise men and women still adore Him.

Elder Russell M. Nelson

The Peace and Joy of Knowing the Savior Lives

December 2011 Ensign

Edited December 6, 2011 by lds2

[Martain]

I shudder to think that people look forward to the trials of the last days. I cant even walk a block and neither can my husband. We are doomed to die very fast. Its not that I mind dying so much its just that when people go looking forward to it as if its going to be a great challenge it seems to me that they dont seem to remember how many are going to suffer and die. Or care?

How many people will die simply because of lack of medicines they need to survive? No. I am not looking forward to that. Its hard already for many of us.

I've been told that there were those in every generation of saints since Christ's resurrection who expected it to occur in their lifetimes. We are no different.

That the great and horrible destruction proceeding the second coming lies in the future we all know. It is the when that concerns us so greatly.

Will my Savior be returning to usher in the millennium during the natural span of my lifetime?

If he is then I'll have to go through everything that proceeds his glorious triumphant return.

For a long time I was of the mind and had the very real desire to do everything to make sure I would live through such time.

Now, it really doesn't matter. All that matters is that I become worthy to inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

If I prove so worthy then should I die before his return, I will return with him. If I prove so worthy and live until his return, then I will rise up to meet him. Either way, when he comes, I'll be with him.

Death before his coming, so long as I am worthy, simply means I avoid much of the pain, horror, terror and destruction that is foretold.

As long as I'm worthy there are only two real reasons I can foresee as to wanting to stay throughout it all.

The first being that I have proven worthy but find out that it's his will for me to tarry in order to carry out his will.

The second being that I will have proven worthy of a terrestrial glory but not yet a celestial. In which case I would want to live through it all so that I could have all of the millennium, in the flesh, to work out my eternal salvation.

If we're prepared, if I could lay down my life this very day assured in the knowledge of obtaining a celestial glory, then I will have no fear whether I live or die. So that's my goal!

[annewandering]

Martain, I am going to agree with you except on the point that if you dont live you are not worthy, yet, of the Celestial kingdom.

At that time people are going to die, not for unworthyness, but because it is going to be miserably hard, similar to the trek westward I would guess. Many righteous people died then and many will die during the trek back.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am going to rant a little bit here. Never before have we had a generation that thinks it does not have to work more than this current generation. (my opinion) As a youth I picked fruit, moved sprinkler pipe, worked through the nights (and mud) on irrigation turns, slaughtered chickens, worked in sewers (so smelly I threw up) and many other things that this generation thinks is “undignified” work and working conditions.

Many of this generation take sick leave - when they are not sick; fully believing they are “entitled”. Let’s not confuse lazy with not being able and willing to work. The sun just did not come up one day and suddenly there was not enough work to be done.

The Traveler

I agree. There is a greater sense of entitlement than at least what I remember growing up.

[Martain]

That's ok. I don't mind if you disagree.

Yet I'm confused. Your disagreement sounded more like an agreement?

Your right, many righteous people died during the trek. It wasn't due to unworthiness. Likewise I expect that many righteous people will die during the events prior to the second coming and that likewise it won't be due to unworthiness.

After all the Lord has told us that he will test us even unto death right?

Is it so hard to envision that some will be called to die for the faith?

What if I don't live but it was because I refused to recant my faith? Such would be a martyrs death which qualifies one for the celestial kingdom does it not?

What if I qualify but I'm called to labor on the other side?

What if it was simply my time to leave at age 62? Sure it's possible that he would come within the natural lifespan of man had I stayed. Surely the Lord could extend the life of every individual who has made their calling sure but that doesn't mean he will.

If there are these reasons why a man may die rather than live through the tribulation proceeding the second coming and yet be worthy of the celestial kingdom, could there not be more?

So while we disagree, do you better understand why I feel that just because you don't live doesn't mean you're not worthy of the celestial kingdom?

[annewandering]

Another example of miscommunication! We do agree completely on this. :)

[Martain]

Ah! I understand now. Let me try to re-explain the point in question then =)

We know that everything and everyone living a telestial life will be cut off in the second coming. Only those who are living either a terrestrial or celestial life will live through it and even then not all of them will.

If I die prior to the second coming and fall short of a celestial glory, any progression still available to me must be had in the spirit world.

While we know progress is possible in the spirit world for those still eligible, we know it takes longer to achieve per the lack of a physical body.

In that case, if I have any such feelings about my current worthiness, better to live through the second coming and so be able to progress towards a celestial glory while still in the flesh.

That's what I meant. Hope this makes more sense =)

[Swag]

I am going to rant a little bit here. Never before have we had a generation that thinks it does not have to work more than this current generation. (my opinion) As a youth I picked fruit, moved sprinkler pipe, worked through the nights (and mud) on irrigation turns, slaughtered chickens, worked in sewers (so smelly I threw up) and many other things that this generation thinks is “undignified” work and working conditions.

Many of this generation take sick leave - when they are not sick; fully believing they are “entitled”. Let’s not confuse lazy with not being able and willing to work. The sun just did not come up one day and suddenly there was not enough work to be done.

The Traveler

I am a part of this youth that is so often misunderstood. I can not count how many times i have been called irresponsible by adultsbecause i dont have a job at the moment. I am in high school right now, i am playing basketball right now, i am a member of the bsa. Many adults don't realize how much we youth do for zero pay. Listen to many conversations, jobs are about money. Many of The kids you described were trying to support the family but many were doing it for personal gain. This is not responsible in my mind, but responsible is staying home and studying for AP or practicing for basketball till 8:00 at night without pay. I feel that many kids today do sit around playing MW3 to much, but to say a whole generation is not working in my mind is either a skewed reality or a nostalgic view of the past. Many kids do work in fact also, many people i know work for a local water well service, grass farms, HEB (a Texas grocery store that hires a LOT of kids.) And other things. The school work is harder now than it used to be. Just look at the standardized testing from the 80s. If you think it is easy now, just look at the difference being back then makes. It was much easier to be considered academically acceptable back then than it its today. People have said that america has fallen behind on education in the world and is now below average. Actually we are 7th in the world most of the other 6 (including China) have a six day school week and all of them have much longer days.

If we want to be one of the best, than we need to improve our dated education system.

Now, stepping off my podium....

I dont mean to argue or sound rude, i just don't like hearing about how my generation is amoral from 60s teens (who as a generation, not all people, were WAAYYY less moral), or dont work. I may be skewing it from my perspective, but to me, we are the most misunderstood and strong people on the face of the earth.

[Swag]

I agree. There is a greater sense of entitlement than at least what I remember growing up.

I think that what people view as entitlement is we don't want to work for lower pay than adults for same jobs, etc. not out of laziness.