"God once was..."

[heidirunner]

I have read the Book of Mormon and the Bible. Do you believe that both the Book of Mormon and the Bible contain the fulness of the gospel because I have a question about God changing and what you wrote about God not changing his mind.

Edited November 1, 2011 by heidirunner
fix spelling mistakes

[annewandering]

Not for a second do I believe there is such a thing as an evil linage. There are bad people in every line. That does not make a line evil. My husbands family is very dysfunctional but, in doing genealogy, we have found that they were a very Christian group of people more inclined to do good than evil.

You can not condemn an entire line of people based on a few.

[Maygraceabound]

Please forgive me as I do not understand. The subject is plural God's and Isaiah 43:10 is clear that God says no other God formed before Him and no other God formed after Him. Here is Isaiah 43:10

10: Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

How do you disregard God's word?

[annewandering]

The Lds Life: Isaiah 43:10 (10-12 explained) Has an interesting discussion on this subject.

[heidirunner]

I am with gracemayabound. I do not believe you can disregard God's word. I read LDS life and found it to go around the fact that there is one God. Having read the Book of Mormon, it also states there is only one God. The website used John 17:21 and 20:17 to say that Jesus was talking to his Father to say there is more than one God. However, has anyone ever talked to themselves out loud? I have (especially in the car). This is what is happening in John. This is how I had the fact that there is only one God explained to me so that I could understand John 17 and 20 and a few other verses. We are created in the likeness of God, right? So if you agree with this (let me know if you want the exact Biblical reference), then here is the rest. We have a body, soul, and spirit but we are not 3 different people-we are one. That is how God is-3 different parts but one. I can also support the fact that there is only one God using the Book of Mormon if anyone wants those references. (other Bible references include Isaiah 44:6-8, 46:5&9).

[JudoMinja]

This thread is not supposed to be about whether or not there is "one God". There have been several other threads that have covered this particular topic from several different angles, and yes we've touched on it some in here, but the focus of the thread is supposed to be what we think God possibly "was" before the creation of the earth. The idea of who God "was" and our similarity to it is heavily based in some LDS teachings and a LOT of speculation.

See, for clarification, my "disclaimer" from the previous page:

This thread has definitely been all over the topic and gone many directions. I can see how it would be confusing, especially since I started it with some pretty free-flowing thoughts and wasn't really all that solid or concrete on my own ideas yet. I'm glad you've found it useful and thought provoking. :)

Mostly, I wanted to explore the nature of God before the creation of this earth and our mortality, hence the focus on the "God once was" portion of the couplet. Since the church takes no official stance on this, we have no clear revelations or scriptures about it, and it isn't really something necessary to understand for our own progression through mortality, it was more an exercise of "fun" speculation to get some ideas from others and get the thoughtful juices flowing. Just how much our own progression is a reflection of what God "was" depends on exactly how similar we think God's "progression" was/is to ours.

I would agree that family is key to understanding that. There are many, many lessons that can be learned from our relationships with our earthly families that pertain to our relationship with our Heavenly Father, the Savior, and everyone else in the eternities.

I know we've wandered quite a bit, but I don't want this thread to turn into a cross-religious debate about how we justify what we believe about God or our own natures in the scriptures. If you want more of a discussion on our belief concerning "one God", I would suggest looking into the various threads discussing the Trinity/Godhead or starting another thread on the topic.

[Guest Chri77pher88]

Scripturally speaking, what we really don't know very much about is just what you are saying -- that God was once a man. This concept is not found in the Bible nor the Book of Mormon.

That man can become as man, is clearly in scripture.

So I agree with Pres. Hinckley's statement, from that perspective.

[Echo2002]

My philosophy is, if it doesn't pertain to my salvation I don't pay much attention to it. It's an interesting discussion, but all we are doing is speculating on what might be. While we are still on this earth, I don't think we will ever understand how God the Father came to be.

[Justice]

How do you disregard God's word?

When you discuss religion with others you have to realize that there are many different ways to interpret the words of scripture, or even words in general. This is evident in the number of churches there are in the world, all interpreting the Bible differently.

To accuse someone of disregarding it may not be the best way to approach a religious conversation. It would be better to ask how they interpret it. The way you worded your question is accusatory and shows little desire to actually understand what another believes.

[Justice]

However, has anyone ever talked to themselves out loud? I have (especially in the car). This is what is happening in John.

So, then at Jesus' batism He is being a ventriliquist, throwing His voice into the air to act as if He is speaking to Himself from the sky as another person? The Father's voice is clearly heard from heaven, speaking to those present as a witness that Christ is His beloved Son. If so, that's a game of deception, and He should understand why we are confused, if in fact it is we who are wrong.

[rameumptom]

I am with gracemayabound. I do not believe you can disregard God's word. I read LDS life and found it to go around the fact that there is one God. Having read the Book of Mormon, it also states there is only one God. The website used John 17:21 and 20:17 to say that Jesus was talking to his Father to say there is more than one God. However, has anyone ever talked to themselves out loud? I have (especially in the car). This is what is happening in John. This is how I had the fact that there is only one God explained to me so that I could understand John 17 and 20 and a few other verses. We are created in the likeness of God, right? So if you agree with this (let me know if you want the exact Biblical reference), then here is the rest. We have a body, soul, and spirit but we are not 3 different people-we are one. That is how God is-3 different parts but one. I can also support the fact that there is only one God using the Book of Mormon if anyone wants those references. (other Bible references include Isaiah 44:6-8, 46:5&9).

This is because you are reading and viewing these things from a traditional Christian viewpoint that was tainted by Greek philosophy, and not the original ancient viewpoint of the early Jews and Christians. It is very clear when one reads the Bible that God is anthropomorphic, or man-like. Moses spoke with God face to face. Noah walked with God. Isaiah and Stephen saw God sitting on his throne.

Your definition of body/soul/spirit is not Trinity view, but modalism, which St Augustine considered a heresy. The Trinitarian God is NOT three different parts. He is three different persons, while being one God.

This is also what the LDS believe, except we believe in a social Trinitarianism. There are three different persons (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) within one Godhead.

I suggest you read some of the newer literature from Christian (not LDS) scholars NT Wright and Margaret Barker. She is one of the best known OT scholars out there and a Methodist minister. I recommend her seminal book, the Great Angel. You can probably get one used at Amazon.com.

[rameumptom]

Please forgive me as I do not understand. The subject is plural God's and Isaiah 43:10 is clear that God says no other God formed before Him and no other God formed after Him. Here is Isaiah 43:10

10: Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

How do you disregard God's word?

Sadly, this is what happens when people take verses of scripture out of context from the original meaning.

The early Jews believed in a Divine Council of heaven. At the head of this council was El or El Elyon (God Almighty). He had seventy divine sons, to which he divided the nations after the Flood (Genesis 10). Yahweh or Jehovah was given the choicest of the nations: Israel. Many of these divine sons were petty, and many attempted to gain more lands and nations. In Job, we see that some of the divine sons, along with the Adversary (often translated as Satan) came to challenge Yahweh for Israel.

In the time before Isaiah, the Canaanites cast out their original god, Yam, and replaced him with Baal. Through Isaiah, Yahweh was stating that unlike Canaan, he was the original God of Israel, and unlike Canaan, he would never be replaced.

So, Yahweh could acknowledge that there were other divine beings, yet he was the only one for Israel. Jewish belief then extended the power of Yahweh throughout the world. After the Jews were carried off to Babylon and the temple destroyed (temple = God's home on earth, wherein was the mercy seat throne and ark of the covenant), Ezekiel saw Yahweh on a flying portable throne, symbolizing that Yahweh would and could travel to Babylon to continue being their God in exile.

Today, we see that Yahweh conquered the competing divine sons, and became God of all the earth. Scholar Margaret Barker shows that the earliest Christian understood all of this and proclaimed that Jesus was Yahweh, the Messiah and Great Angel before the Presence (Shekinah) of God the Father.

So, we do not disregard God's word. Along with Peter, we believe that scripture is not for private interpretation, but should be understood in the way originally meant by the ancient prophets who wrote them. In this case, we can see that the LDS view coincides with Isaiah's and Yahweh's teachings.

I suggest you spend a few years studying to find out what ancient prophets actually meant by their words, rather than just putting a modern spin on them that may take you further away from God, rather than closer to Him.

[rameumptom]

I have just finished reading the Book of Mormon and what I took from it was that indeed, we do have to be perfect. I am wondering if anyone knows anyone who has achieved this, who has completely stopped sinning before they died. When Jesus said "Be ye perfect as I am" in John, He was talking to the Pharisees and scribes who thought that they were righteous and better than everyone else. What Jesus meant was that no one could be perfect like Jesus.

Matthew 5:48 teaches us to be "perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Clearly it is a standard.

But again, as I noted regarding Isaiah 43 above, we need to ensure we understand things from the ancient perspective. The term "perfect" means to be completed or finished.

Paul teaches that through justification, we become guiltless or sinless. Justification requires us to have faith and repent of all our sins. With justification, we then are made without sin through the blood of Christ. This is one form of perfection.

Paul also teaches about sanctification, where we become holy. This is not an all-at-once event, but we go from grace to grace receiving grace for grace (D&C 93) even as Christ did in mortality, until we receive a fullness of grace or perfection. Sanctification occurs gradually. As we are first made guiltless through justification, we now seek to increase our faith and dedication to our Lord Jesus Christ. As we become more holy, we are infused more and more with the Holy Spirit, which sanctifies us to ever higher levels of perfection.

In this way, a person who is sanctified and dies in his youth can be just as perfect as the sanctified person who dies in his 90s. Why? Because they have become perfect to that level of sanctification received. A small child does not understand sin and righteousness on the level that a teenager can, and the teenager does not understand them on the level that a grandparent does. This type of perfection, then, lies largely on the level of understanding a person has, and how that person seeks to be sanctified at that level of understanding.

So, are there perfect people on earth? If we say people are perfect in that they are guiltless before God because of the atonement of Christ, then yes. If we say that people are perfect because they are sanctified to a level of righteousness commensurate with their understanding of the gospel, then the answer here is yes, also.

I do not think God expects people to be able to make an infinite number of free throw baskets without missing any. Nor do I think he expects us to never make a mistake. What God expects in order for us to be perfect/complete/finished is to be made guiltless in Christ and sanctified through the Holy Ghost.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Please forgive me as I do not understand. The subject is plural God's and Isaiah 43:10 is clear that God says no other God formed before Him and no other God formed after Him. Here is Isaiah 43:10

10: Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

How do you disregard God's word?

As Annewandering pointed out in her link: "

Also in Hebrews 1:2, we learn that "Jesus Christ" was appointed as an "Heir of All Things"

The usage of the word "Heir" makes sense that the Father has handed him all rights and powers as an Heir would be. This same "Heir" relationship between Us and the Father is spoken of in Revelations 1:5-6, 30:19-21) So who handed the "Father" all things? Can this chain be as old as eons and eternities without end. Who knows yet. It's not our worry to know all things yet. Just to be faithful in a FEW things..."

We do not know exactly how this works yet. But I think the answer lies within this idea of inheritance. This inheritance is not partial when you think of a family dividing the inheritance of past parents to a number of children, dividing things up. This inheritance, potentially is full, meaning all. If one receives all the inheritance there is to receive, how many different inheritances would there be? Only one! There cannot be another inheritance formed after that that would be greater than all. And if a person did get all, it would be the same one that the other person got, so it is still only one.

How is that one can inherit all that happened before and in the future? I think it is impossible for us to understand right now, but it is the same power that allowed Jesus to feel all the pain and suffering both past and future for all of us in the garden of Gethsemane. That power is accessed by being Christlike. When we love our neighbor as ourselves and we find joy in the happiness of others, moving away from self centered forms of happiness then we begin to understand how those things can be inherited from one person to the next.

[clint25n]

As a Christian that believes in a Triune God who's always existed, I wonder if my LDS friends believe that Heavenly Father was once a sinner? If God was once like us, then why not.

[Echo2002]

Jesus Christ had a physical body on earth and lived with us, but he was never a sinner. So I would think if God the Father also obtained a physical body at one point then he would not have been a sinner, he would have been perfect like Christ.

[Justice]

SpringGirl could be right. But, in fact, The Father is glorified and perfected. The path He took there is meaningless now.

[Maygraceabound]

Sadly, this is what happens when people take verses of scripture out of context from the original meaning.

The early Jews believed in a Divine Council of heaven. At the head of this council was El or El Elyon (God Almighty). He had seventy divine sons, to which he divided the nations after the Flood (Genesis 10). Yahweh or Jehovah was given the choicest of the nations: Israel. Many of these divine sons were petty, and many attempted to gain more lands and nations. In Job, we see that some of the divine sons, along with the Adversary (often translated as Satan) came to challenge Yahweh for Israel.

In the time before Isaiah, the Canaanites cast out their original god, Yam, and replaced him with Baal. Through Isaiah, Yahweh was stating that unlike Canaan, he was the original God of Israel, and unlike Canaan, he would never be replaced.

So, Yahweh could acknowledge that there were other divine beings, yet he was the only one for Israel. Jewish belief then extended the power of Yahweh throughout the world. After the Jews were carried off to Babylon and the temple destroyed (temple = God's home on earth,

wherein was the mercy seat throne and ark of the covenant), Ezekiel saw Yahweh on a flying portable throne, symbolizing that Yahweh would and could travel to Babylon to continue being their God in exile.

Today, we see that Yahweh conquered the competing divine sons, and became God of all the earth. Scholar Margaret Barker shows that the earliest Christian understood all of this and proclaimed that Jesus was Yahweh, the Messiah and Great Angel before the Presence (Shekinah) of God the Father.

So, we do not disregard God's word. Along with Peter, we believe that scripture is not for

private interpretation, but should be understood in the way originally meant by the ancient

prophets who wrote them. In this case, we can see that the LDS view coincides with Isaiah's

and Yahweh's teachings.

I suggest you spend a few years studying to find out what ancient prophets actually meant by their words, rather than just putting a modern spin on them that may take you further away from God, rather than closer to Him.

I do not know how to respond to this. Your reply has some truth, Greek mythology and fairy tail all mixed together. As for me, I stand by God's word for I am not ashamed of it.

[Snow]

I am with gracemayabound. I do not believe you can disregard God's word. I read LDS life and found it to go around the fact that there is one God. Having read the Book of Mormon, it also states there is only one God. The website used John 17:21 and 20:17 to say that Jesus was talking to his Father to say there is more than one God. However, has anyone ever talked to themselves out loud? I have (especially in the car). This is what is happening in John. This is how I had the fact that there is only one God explained to me so that I could understand John 17 and 20 and a few other verses. We are created in the likeness of God, right? So if you agree with this (let me know if you want the exact Biblical reference), then here is the rest. We have a body, soul, and spirit but we are not 3 different people-we are one. That is how God is-3 different parts but one. I can also support the fact that there is only one God using the Book of Mormon if anyone wants those references. (other Bible references include Isaiah 44:6-8, 46:5&9).

Why do you think it is that no one in the Bible, not Jesus, not Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul or Peter demonstrated an understanding of the "trinity" in the same way that you understand the "trinity?"

[Maygraceabound]

Why do you think it is that no one in the Bible, not Jesus, not Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul or Peter demonstrated an understanding of the "trinity" in the same way that you understand the "trinity?"

Jesus did know and so did John, read John 1 and John 14. It is very clear. That is if you are willing to believe it. Willing to believe the bible. Willing to believe Him, Jesus.

[Mamas_Girl]

Jesus did know and so did John, read John 1 and John 14. It is very clear. That is if you are willing to believe it. Willing to believe the bible. Willing to believe Him, Jesus.

Actually, I don't think it's as clear as you think it is. This is a perfect example of why there are so many churches on the earth, it's all about interpretation.

In John 1. It states in the beginning was the Word [Jesus] and Word was WITH God [the Father].

In John 10 Jesus talked about how the Father knows him, and he knows the Father... and his Father loves him because... and he received a commandment from his Father. Eventually he gets around to saying that he and the Father are one. Well... that's what we believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three distinct individuals who are one in purpose. From my point of view it solidifies our viewpoint.

I'll add Matthew 19:5 that says that the man and wife shall be one flesh. Well obviously it's ridiculous to believe that we're going to become Siamese twins. My husband and I are two seperate and distinct individuals, but we're one in purpose (our hopes, dreams, goals, etc.).

[clint25n]

Why do you think it is that no one in the Bible, not Jesus, not Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul or Peter demonstrated an understanding of the "trinity" in the same way that you understand the "trinity?"

I understand you do not believe in the Trinity, and I'm not trying to convince you to, but I thought I should point out that Jesus DID claim "I and the Father are one". He also called himself the "I AM" from the Old Testament which everyone knew to be God and the Jews picked up stones to kill Him since He claimed to be God and to know Abraham.

Paul said that "all things were created by Jesus and for Jesus". John even said Jesus was the Word, and the Word was God.

The apostles all agreed after Jesus's crucifixion that Jesus was God incarnate in the flesh.

"..And they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." -Matthew 1:23 KJV

Note: Even though Mainstream Christians believe in the Trinity, they do not believe in Modalism. So they do not believe Jesus was praying to himself.

"This is a perfect example of why there are so many churches on the earth"

But yet all these Churches believe in the same core doctrine, and call each other brothers.

"In John 1. It states in the beginning was the Word [Jesus] and Word was WITH God [the Father]."

You forgot the next sentance, "and the Word Was God."

"it's ridiculous to believe that we're going to become Siamese twins"

Christians don't believe God is conjoined. They believe in God in 3 persons.

Once again. I know you don't believe in this. But I'm only reading what it says. It would be great to hear what you believe and to show why and where it says that. It's great to better understand where each are coming from. I'd really like to hear your point of view, and the references in scripture.

Edited November 3, 2011 by clint25n

[Mamas_Girl]

You forgot the next sentance, "and the Word Was God."

Not that I'm going to get into scripture bashing, but I didn't forget it, I thought it was implied. The Word is Jesus Christ, whom the prophets had testified would come to save those would would believe in him. But it also says that the Word was WITH God, thus Jesus was with someone else, God the Father.

It would be great to hear what you believe and to show why and where it says that.

I just did in my last post. You used some of the same scriptures I would have used to prove my point. I'm only reading what it says. Actually if I were to mention one other scripture, it'd be James 1:5. I put that into use quite a bit, and it works for me.

[Snow]

Jesus did know and so did John, read John 1 and John 14. It is very clear. That is if you are willing to believe it. Willing to believe the bible. Willing to believe Him, Jesus.

If you found the Trinity in John, they would be the very first ever in all history.

Perhaps you are not familiar with what the Trinity is. This will help, One God comprised of three co-eternal, co-equal hypostases, all three being of the same ousia,

Can you quote the specific verses in John that say that?

[Snow]

I understand you do not believe in the Trinity, and I'm not trying to convince you to, but I thought I should point out that Jesus DID claim "I and the Father are one". He also called himself the "I AM" from the Old Testament which everyone knew to be God and the Jews picked up stones to kill Him since He claimed to be God and to know Abraham.

That is not what the "Trinity" is. Mormons believe that Jesus and the Father are one. We just do not the how the Council of Constantinople in 381 or Council of Chalcedon in 451 defined that oneness.