Don't like Dr. Jeffress' comments about our faith?

[Tyler90AZ]

Some media attention is better then no media attention. In this case it turned out that the majority of the coverage was good media attention. Like previously stated this has only worked out for our benefit.

[RipplecutBuddha]

So somebody said they think we're a cult....big deal. I get told that every other time I talk about my faith outside of church. People will think whatever they want. They will believe whatever they want. Even in the face of pure logic and reason.

The fact is I believe we are Christian, everything done in the church is done in the name of Jesus Christ, we rely upon Christ alone for our salvation, the Bible is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly (and I can't imagine any Christian accepting an incorrectly-translated Bible as the true word of God), and the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ.

If someone doesn't like what we believe, that's cool. If someone seriously thinks I'm bound for Satan's neighborhood because of what I believe, I'm fine with it.

However---if a Christian were to think that in their hearts, I rather think they would set about a serious outreach program to recover us. This man merely dislikes us and isn't afraid to say it. He doesn't care about us one whit, and I'm still cool with that.

If we don't like other's freedom of speech/belief, how can we claim ours?

[Spartan117]

However---if a Christian were to think that in their hearts, I rather think they would set about a serious outreach program to recover us.

There is. Several. That I won't link to :)

This man merely dislikes us and isn't afraid to say it. He doesn't care about us one whit, and I'm still cool with that.

I don't think the good Pastor is anything but well meaning. He's just incorrect when it comes to understanding Mormonism.

If we don't like other's freedom of speech/belief, how can we claim ours?

I don't think it's too much that we ask him not to refer to us as a cult, and that we aren't Christian. He heads up a church with 10,000 members who follow him and listen to what he says. He just needs to be educated.

[sister_in_faith]

He heads up a church with 10,000 members who follow him and listen to what he says.

Almost sounds like the makings of a, dare I say?, cult?

hee hee hee.... sorry, I had to!

[RipplecutBuddha]

There is. Several. That I won't link to :)

I agree. I merely mentioned it in reference to the gentleman's significant lack of such outreach effort. Maybe I should have said so earlier. :)

I don't think the good Pastor is anything but well meaning. He's just incorrect when it comes to understanding Mormonism.

True, but here again, he could not have failed to realize the impact of his words, given the audience he knew would hear them. He could have been much more compassionate, rather than purely condemning us.

I don't think it's too much that we ask him not to refer to us as a cult, and that we aren't Christian. He heads up a church with 10,000 members who follow him and listen to what he says. He just needs to be educated.

Well, sure. We can ask, but what are the odds that we'll be accepted merely because we ask for a fair chance? (something we've been asking for since 1820, btw)

I understand the importance of seeking to find common ground and understanding with protestant christians. By and large, I think many are of the mind of our good friend PC. They are firm in their faith and seek merely to gain strength and fellowship with us through mutual respectful discussion.

However, there will always be those of the mind of Mr. (Dr.?) Jeffress. Unfortunately there will always be those who hate for the sake of hatred. No matter how hard you try, you cannot push a rope. We lead by example in word and deed as Christ taught us. Those that accept us can become our good friends. Those that reject us are free to do so in my opinion. Worrying about what others think of us is only useful when a respectful discussion is possible. Beyond that, it's just wasting energy on things one cannot change.

[Blackmarch]

IMO

IN this case i think the most appropriate action fo LDS would actually not to respond in word, but rather be relatively silent and speak by actions that prove something other than what was claimed. I think there are plenty of others that will see what was said and will speak out.

I'm already seeing this in various articles across a few different news sources.

[Spartan117]

I went though Dr. Jeffress Facebook page and read all the comments (all of them, the page has like 300 people who "liked" it and was created recently because of his recent 15 minutes of fame) and all the comments supporting him and his comments applaud him for being "brave" enough to tell the truth. One comment said Mormonism is a cult because Joseph Smith isn't in the Bible, and not one single time was 'prophet' spelled correctly. Those people don't need no profit to write them new books because Jesus wrote the Bible and that's all they need.

[captmoroniRM]

A Christ-Centered Faith - LDS Newsroom

--Latest from the Church Newsroom in response from all the hubbub.

[Juan_P]

Jefferies defines a "theological cult" as one that disagrees with historic Christian teachings. I'm sure he has in mind the Trinity, salvation by grace alone, etc. So, by his definition, he's right in his own mind. If 10,000 LDS sent him letters, and he responded, "So, do you believe in the Trinity?" All 10,000 would likely respond, "No." Then he'd triumphantly pronounce that he was right.

Currently all the GOP candidates have disavowed the slur, and the media is pouncing on it. The reverend probably did your church an unintended favor.

Plus he also naively told every Budist, Hindu and every Jew not to bother running for president as a republican because he will instruct his congregations to vote for a Christian and not a Jew, Budist or Hindu. Way to go in trying to recruit youngsters from those religions! Jefferies just pushed them all over to the democrats!

However the pastor was clearly lying -first he said directly that mormons are 1) a cult and b) not christian, even when challenged by the journalist. They clearly mean one thing and one thing only. But now he has changed it to say that mormons are a part of a theological cult (because they are founded by a man and not Jesus was what he said) and that they are not 'historical christianity'leaving room there to call mormons 'restorationist christians' or christian primitivits -which I'd now say we are. When someone changes his discourse that much, then clearly he wanted to get a different message across when the media wasn't onto him.

Plus, worst of all, he reference the first supreme court justice who said people should vote for a 'good christian'..and I was like.... what? the same supreme court that later on said it was OK and legal to buy and sell people as slaves or the same supreme court that said it is OK to kill an unborn child? I mean, how desperate did the pastor become in that he had to reference a supreme court justice from 177something..!!!

As to the email, I would email him and just point out that yes, we are NOT historical christianity but a new type of christianity, restorationist or primitivist christianity (as wikipedia explained.) We also don't meet the baptist definition of theological cult if one accepts our beliefs regarding how this very american religion started ie directed by Jesus to start a new church instead of being founded by a man Joseph Smith, even though he obviously wont agree to this view.

Only problem is i don't have his email,....anyone here know what it is???

[prisonchaplain]

Plus he also naively told every Budist, Hindu and every Jew not to bother running for president as a republican because he will instruct his congregations to vote for a Christian and not a Jew, Budist or Hindu. Way to go in trying to recruit youngsters from those religions! Jefferies just pushed them all over to the democrats!

Actually, he removed himself as a major influencer in the Republican party, since all the major candidates disavowed his comments. Those young from these religions might have actually gained some hope that there is room for them in the GOP big tent.

However the pastor was clearly lying -first he said directly that mormons are 1) a cult and b) not christian, even when challenged by the journalist. They clearly mean one thing and one thing only.

He was careful enough to use the phrase "theological cult." It's not a nice word either, but he could have been clearer by using "heresy" instead. At least that word is about doctrine, and doesn't cause the uninitiated to think of Jim Jones or David Koresh.

But now he has changed it to say that mormons are a part of a theological cult (because they are founded by a man and not Jesus was what he said) and that they are not 'historical christianity'leaving room there to call mormons 'restorationist christians' or christian primitivits -which I'd now say we are. When someone changes his discourse that much, then clearly he wanted to get a different message across when the media wasn't onto him.

I struggle with this new adjective I'm seeing. Technically my church is restorationist, because we "restored" the belief in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including speaking in tongues. The Church of Christ also claims to be restorationist. For LDS to use this adjective probably creates more confusion than it helps.

Plus, worst of all, he reference the first supreme court justice who said people should vote for a 'good christian'..and I was like.... what? the same supreme court that later on said it was OK and legal to buy and sell people as slaves or the same supreme court that said it is OK to kill an unborn child? I mean, how desperate did the pastor become in that he had to reference a supreme court justice from 177something..!!!

Sorry, but these comparisons are so much mixing of apples and oranges. The early court was at our founding, so what a Supreme Court justice said might give us insight into the foundations of our country. That the court allowed slavery does not detract from the authority of it overall. Likewise, what does the 1972 Roe v. Wade decision have to do with anything???

As to the email, I would email him and just point out that yes, we are NOT historical christianity but a new type of christianity, restorationist or primitivist christianity (as wikipedia explained.) We also don't meet the baptist definition of theological cult if one accepts our beliefs regarding how this very american religion started ie directed by Jesus to start a new church instead of being founded by a man Joseph Smith, even though he obviously wont agree to this view.

Only problem is i don't have his email,....anyone here know what it is???

One of the head moderators removed the contact information. So, you'll have to go to the internet to dig that out. I wouldn't post it here, either, since it's been removed once.

[Juan_P]

....Ironically, the reverend helped the LDS candidate with his poorly conceived words. On the other hand, how many strings have we had here in the past year, concering who is a Christian, what makes a Christian, etc. After all, just what do "Christians" believe?

Also, since you are new to the forum, I'd encourage you to see the other side. There is an organization and website created by and for evangelical Christians who support the presidential candidate who happens to be LDS. We do not discuss particular candidates here, so I mention it only to say, many evangelical Christians agree with you--that Jefferies counsel was poorly spoken, and poor in content.

Yeah, poorly spoken but with some reach amongst that bible belt in the south. however I can't but help remembering the other baptist church that pickets soldiers funerals and blamed gays for 9/11. There is something wrong with a few baptist churches; they seem to be the equivalent to fundamentalist mormons that keep getting into trouble!

Also I can't help but think that one candidate was recruited into this race by some baptists who wanted a 'real christian' to run for president. I think they tricked the man into believing that God is calling him to be president. It isn't spelt out anywhere but I just can't shake the suspicion. Or maybe I've just become paranoid over this 'mormon' issue,.....

[Juan_P]

Actually, he removed himself as a major influencer in the Republican party, since all the major candidates disavowed his comments. Those young from these religions might have actually gained some hope that there is room for them in the GOP big tent.

He doesn't say that. In fact he will probably be proud of himself for being on air and sharing his message to more people than the 10 thousand odd who go to his church. And the young from those religions will hear his 'christian only' claim more clearly than what, say, Rove said on fox because the pastors comments are dominating the airways and not Rove's. Plus Cain didn't actually disavow those comments but sidesteped them with a 'I'm not going to do an analysis of morminism vs christianity' ...smart way to say 'they aren't christians'

He was careful enough to use the phrase "theological cult."

point was that he changed from just simply a 'cult' that night he presented Perry to then being nicer on CNN and qualifying it as a 'theological cult'. He was pointing or implying the cult as we all understand it to be, like Koresh, the first time around. Plus, if one listenes to what mormons claim, ie that Jesus appeared and told Smith to not go to any other church etc , then the religion doesn't meet the criteria imposed by the southern baptist convention on the definition of a theological cult. Its only when one believes what the baptist are saying ie that mormonism was founded by a man in Joseph Smith and not by Jesus Christ, that it then meets the criterial for 'theological cult' according to their definition.

I struggle with this new adjective I'm seeing. Technically my church is restorationist, because we "restored" the belief in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including speaking in tongues. The Church of Christ also claims to be restorationist. For LDS to use this adjective probably creates more confusion than it helps.

Its been around since the very start of mormonism. We always claimed to be a restoration of the original Christian church and not a reformation of any current form of Christianity. Everything done in the our church has a 'restoration' aspect to it, from John the Baptist's appearance for the priesthood of aaron to Elijah, Moses and Jesus himself in the Kirtland Temple. I think that maybe the LDS church has been using that adjective without publicising it too much since you find it new. But are you imlying here that because the Church of Christ claims to be restorationist that we then shouldn't also make that claim? Are there rules to follow here? (what is your church by the way?)

Note that as far back as Smith and Young were the gifts of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost 'restored' such as discernment and speaking in tongues and many many more. Actually when Young met Smith for the first time he spoke in tongues and Smith claimed it to be a lost ancient language.....So I can't agree with you that it is a new adjective we are using, nor does it create more confusion but clarifies what we believe we are ie the restoration of the original christian church with apostles, seventies etc.

Sorry, but these comparisons are so much mixing of apples and oranges. The early court was at our founding, so what a Supreme Court justice said might give us insight into the foundations of our country. That the court allowed slavery does not detract from the authority of it overall. Likewise, what does the 1972 Roe v. Wade decision have to do with anything???

Hmmm.....what a justice said may or may not be right. Justice Jay said people should vote for a christian but was that correct? is there anything in the constitution to support that view or does Art 6 actually have some weight? this isn't apples and oranges, its pointing out that justices can be wrong in the opinions they hold, as they were each time slavery was upheld, mostly by southern justices by the way, and they were wrong with Rove v Wade. The point was why would you trust what Jay said when it directly contradicts article 6 and when there are also more reasons to doubt the court as an authoritative guide for what citizens should or shouldn't do, because they do get it wrong sometimes.

One of the head moderators removed the contact information. So, you'll have to go to the internet to dig that out. I wouldn't post it here, either, since it's been removed once.

And what's the reasoning behing that? the pastor isn't a political figure but a religious one. I have googled the email but come up with page after page of newspapers reporting on what the pastor said -all about cults and them non-christian mormons- but no email yet.

[Juan_P]

Seek and ye shall find . . . http://www.lds.net/forums/christian-beliefs-board/42679-what-do-christians-believe.html#post625925

I'd say its what traditional christianity or 99.9% of christians believe; that is protestants, catholics, orthodox etc.

For me, I'd say that what Jesus expressed in the last super is far more relevant and important to defining what a christian believes in or what makes a believer 'Christian'. It includes the 'communion' or eucharist or sacrament in our terms, it includes revelation as in the revelation of both Judas current betrayal and Peters future denials of Jesus, includes ordinances such as the washing of apostles feet, includes the doctrines of that farewell speach and especially Jesus definition of his disciples as his 'friends'. They are real christians, ie the friends of christ, not necessarily the born again only.

[Juan_P]

[]Breaking News and Conservative Opinion on Politics - Townhall

This is a great interview showing what's wrong with this pastor...

[skippy740]

:deadhorse::deadhorse:

[john doe]

And what's the reasoning behing that? the pastor isn't a political figure but a religious one. I have googled the email but come up with page after page of newspapers reporting on what the pastor said -all about cults and them non-christian mormons- but no email yet.

I was the one who removed the pastor's contact information. This site will not be co-opted into being a staging area for attacking people of other faiths, especially clergymen, for their beliefs. I would imagine that if you went to that church's website (assuming there is one) you should be able to find contact information for him.

Edited to add: It took me about 30 seconds to google him and his church, and found contact information.

Edited October 14, 2011 by john doe

[prisonchaplain]

Its been around since the very start of mormonism. We always claimed to be a restoration of the original Christian church and not a reformation of any current form of Christianity. Everything done in the our church has a 'restoration' aspect to it, from John the Baptist's appearance for the priesthood of aaron to Elijah, Moses and Jesus himself in the Kirtland Temple. I think that maybe the LDS church has been using that adjective without publicising it too much since you find it new. But are you imlying here that because the Church of Christ claims to be restorationist that we then shouldn't also make that claim? Are there rules to follow here? (what is your church by the way?)

Note that as far back as Smith and Young were the gifts of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost 'restored' such as discernment and speaking in tongues and many many more. Actually when Young met Smith for the first time he spoke in tongues and Smith claimed it to be a lost ancient language.....So I can't agree with you that it is a new adjective we are using, nor does it create more confusion but clarifies what we believe we are ie the restoration of the original christian church with apostles, seventies etc.

As FYI, my church is Assemblies of God. Yes, you are right that there were elements that were pentecostal in nature in early LDS history. Also, you were right about restorationism. I take it back. You can and should use it. I found a site that we chaplains commonly use, and it describes restorationist Christianity, put you right in the center of it.

The Restorationist denominations in Christianity

[Juan_P]

I was the one who removed the pastor's contact information. This site will not be co-opted into being a staging area for attacking people of other faiths, especially clergymen, for their beliefs. I would imagine that if you went to that church's website (assuming there is one) you should be able to find contact information for him.

Edited to add: It took me about 30 seconds to google him and his church, and found contact information.

yeah I found the church's general info email and staff emails in 5secs, but not the pastors direct one. No guarantee's that they will pass an email on to him.

And any emails sent surely were more to clarify the issues, ones he is mistaken with regarding our beliefs, not to attack him for his beliefs. Blocking the converstion before it even starts can't be helping anyone.

[john doe]

yeah I found the church's general info email and staff emails in 5secs, but not the pastors direct one. No guarantee's that they will pass an email on to him.

And any emails sent surely were more to clarify the issues, ones he is mistaken with regarding our beliefs, not to attack him for his beliefs. Blocking the converstion before it even starts can't be helping anyone.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. If he is interested in finding out what LDS believe he shouldn't have any trouble finding out. I'm sure he can figure out how to google the LDS Church just as easily as we can google his.

[Juan_P]

As FYI, my church is Assemblies of God. Yes, you are right that there were elements that were pentecostal in nature in early LDS history. Also, you were right about restorationism. I take it back. You can and should use it. I found a site that we chaplains commonly use, and it describes restorationist Christianity, put you right in the center of it.

The Restorationist denominations in Christianity

See if you guys can be the sixth largest Christian denomination in the US but reject what catholism and jehovahs withnesses and others believe, I don't see why we cann't be simply the fouth largest Christian denomination in the US even though we reject what everyone else believes

[Juan_P]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. If he is interested in finding out what LDS believe he shouldn't have any trouble finding out. I'm sure he can figure out how to google the LDS Church just as easily as we can google his.

I'm sure he's studied all he wants to about the LDS church and that's why he opines the way he does. However a few hundred emails explaining where he is wrong and inviting him to a conversation would do exactly that: start a conversation.

BYU has being doing this for a few years with evangelicals to the point where many evangelicals today don't have those extreme views on mormons even though differences are point out.

At our layman's level we could probably do something similar.

[prisonchaplain]

See if you guys can be the sixth largest Christian denomination in the US but reject what catholism and jehovahs withnesses and others believe, I don't see why we cann't be simply the fouth largest Christian denomination in the US even though we reject what everyone else believes

Not sure where you are get your stats. I knew the Assemblies was not at 6th. We're small-medium, with a little over 2 million members, and a little over 3 million in weekly attendance. The following puts us at 9th:

Top 10 Largest Christian Denominations in the USA Theo-sophical Ruminations

You do rank significantly higher in the US, though Wikipedia puts the AoG worldwide membership at 60 million.

As for Catholicism...we actually embrace most of what they say. We do not spite the historic trunk from which we branch, just because we disagree about Mary, Popes, and church governance.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are another restorationist movement, so it would make sense that we do not agree with them. Then again, you don't either. That's where the adjective gets fuzzy--each restorationist church tends to believe it is the one true one. So, there are few common characteristics.

[skippy740]

THIS is the kind of message that needs to get out:

Darius A. Gray: "Wherefore by Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them"

[Guest Gold]

I must say that sharing your thoughts with one another is an easy way to relax yourself in the daily hectic routines. Each time a description of the change, there are always lots of talk about it anywhere. These are not exempt. I mean one must be up to date with the day to day change in the environment and in the technology as well.

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