Wanted- Honest Answers About Your Faith!

[Ray]

It is by grace ye are saved after all that you can do.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph 2:8)

Do you see the difference? The book of Mormon (2 Neph 25:23) puts a condition on grace where the Holy Bible says there is nothing of ourselves that we can do aside from the grace of God that will save us. For a man to say, "I did this or that and gained my salvation" after "all that I did," brings pride and boasting. We can do nothing - it is grace and grace alone.

You still don't understand our (LDS) beliefs, mdb.

And to put it in a nutshell, there was nothing and there is nothing and there never will be anything we can do to EARN God's grace. Period. It aint' never ever gonna happen.

So, does that meant that we don't need to REPENT???

No.

We need to repent from all of our sins before God will redeem us through grace... otherwise we'll only get justice for not accepting the grace that God offers to each of us.

And btw, the idea that someone doesn't have enough time to REPENT is kinda silly, to me.

How long would it take YOU to turn the other way if you knew you were going the wrong direction???

I am canadian

Heh, well, you could still ask God to bless us anyway. :)

[mdb]

Ofcourse.

You need to do nothing and you are saved.

Let us ignore the commandments,

because grace alone will save us!

Forget what the prophets say!

Matthew 7:12 says that we have to listen to the prophets,

and we have one today that you ignore.

ALSO faith without works is DEAD!

You need faith in Jesus Christ aswell.

Yes, faith without works is dead, but it is not a man's works that save him. Re-read 2 Neph 25:23. There is a condition put on grace... "AFTER all that you can do." I'm not saying you should not have works, but your works will not and cannot save you. If that was so, Christ came for nothing because it would be possible for man to attain salvation of his own accord. Abraham's faith was credited him as righteousness because he believed God and his faith was justified by his works. Grace alone saves; your faith is proved by what you do. If you profess a faith in Jesus Christ and have works contrary to that faith, you are a hypocrite and do not know God.

THERE IS NOTHING APART FROM THE GRACE OF GOD THAT YOU CAN DO TO BE SAVED. HIS GRACE IS SUFFICIENT.

[Dr T]

I am canadian

That was great!

As far as works are concerned and the idea that Christians can ignore all limitations on sin, that is a misconception that you have been fed somewhere. It looks like MDB is saying that works is not what saves you and it is God alone. When saved, the Christians "works" following godliness is not a requisite but an outpouring of his/her faith.

Dr. T

[Ray]

THERE IS NOTHING APART FROM THE GRACE OF GOD THAT YOU CAN DO TO BE SAVED. HIS GRACE IS SUFFICIENT.

His grace requires our repentance... otherwise He'd say something like:

"Don't worry, I've got it covered. You can now go and do what you want to. The idea that I am to now be your Lord means you can now do what you want to."

Can you find that idea in the scriptures???

It looks like MDB is saying that works is not what saves you and it is God alone. When saved, the Christians "works" following godliness is not a requisite but an outpouring of his/her faith.

Even if that is what mdb is saying, and I doubt that, it would still not be correct to say that God doesn't require our good works, like exercising faith and repentance.

Or in other words, it isn't enough to say He's our Lord. We must really do what He tells us!!!

[Dr T]

Hi Ray,

That is not in the scriptures and not an accurate assessment of salvation and willfully sinning. Paul points out, "Should I sin more so grace can abound?" Hey basically says, "Heck no!" Christians are not saying "I'm saved now I can do whatever I want." They are saying, "we are saved from all past sin, current sin and sin to come and because of that, I will try to become Christlike."

Dr. T

[Ray]

Christians... are saying, "we are saved from all past sin, current sin and sin to come and because of that *(the Atonement), I will try to become Christlike." (* edited by Ray, to clarify what I thought he was saying)

Okay, I can agree with that idea. And when He does judge me, He'll judge how well I "tried", as shown by the "good works" I have done... or in other words, He'll judge my own faith, and my repentance from my sins, or by how well I "tried" to become like Him... and if I am like Him, He'll then say "Well done", and those who don't try will not hear that.

And btw, as a point of fact, it is totally impossible to exercise faith and repentance if one does not really try.

[rosie321]

I'm listening to the back and forth posts and I have to say its frustrating to see the divide between everyone. It's like we all trying to guard our different religious beliefs that we are missing the beauty and the oneness that lies beneath it all.

I definitely think that theres more alike then different. So let me try and boil down some of the basic disputed truths down to some common denominators.

Grace is involved. We cannot do it on our own. The cost is too high. If we tried the burden would be way too much. We needed the atonement to occur. That is something Christian, LDS can agree on.

Although our views on when or works play in, all I believe would agree that works are important. They reflect our commitment and diligence to the choice we made. If we are not trying to follow what we believe the Lord has said. Are we really commited? Or were we ever in the first place? If we are unwilling to do what God asks then we are headed for trouble.

The trinity. 3in1, 3 seperate. Does it really matter? In my opinion technicalities can be pointed out on both sides that can make it hard to understand fully. Therefore just giving us a headache. While its fun to try to understand more. I think its great that we all at least recognize that there is Heavenly Father/God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Each is its own unique entity. Each had very important roles that can benefit our lives immensely. If we can appreciate that about each other. Wouldn't it be great.

Faith and knowledge. Somewhere theres a blend. We can debate forever on this one with the limited understandings we have. Truth to us is often times affected by perception. Faith and Knowledge is changing everyday as we learn. So to some degree things are constantly changing but there is also a sense of sameness. If that makes sense. There is a balance between the two which we also will probably never know the fulness of in this lifetime.

Where do we go after this life? Who really knows the details of it all. Its beyond our comprehension. Therefore while we know Eye hath not seen all that is prepared for us. There are mansions being prepared for us by christ etc. who knows what exactly it will be like. He has promised us all the blessings of heaven.

As far as marriage being everlasting as one of the other posters pointed out. I can't in my mortal eyes seeing God joining two together as one and then just saying no more. But then with some of the complex living situations.. who knows. Its easy to see both sides. Some believe that we will see them and be worshipping God. I guess this is just another area of stay tuned til we find out for sure. But seeing it as holy and love undying it can defineatly be a good motivater to choose someone good and work through problems.

I think the important thing for us to do is as the scriptures say press forward all and see what good we can do today.

In the end lets all be friends. Afterall I think we may be surprised when we see each other of oh so different faiths now are all in one place in the celestial / heavenly realms.

Blessings.

[Ray]

Those were some good ideas there, rosie.

I try to focus my teachings on Faith, to help others know Who we should all worship, and once we know Him, we can learn what He wants, and that's where Repentance comes in.

And yes, while learning can be fun, what's important is what we do with our knowledge, and if all of us do what we know our Lord wants, then we'll all be with Him in His kingdom.

And basically, it's as simple as that. :)

[Dr T]

Hi Ray,

I have a request of you, Sir. When quoting something that I typed I am asking that when you insert something of your own into my quote, please do it with "[]" maks or by saying that "X" was added by you into my quote. This will make it known that even though you quoted something that I said, you changed/added to it and have included it into the quotation that you attributed to me. :) Or you can just quote what I said exactly and then add clarification or questions about what was meant in that quote outside of the quotations. I will appreciate that.

Thank you in advance,

Dr. T

[Ray]

Hi Ray,

I have a request of you, Sir. When quoting something that I typed I am asking that when you insert something of your own into my quote, please do it with "[]" maks or by saying that "X" was added by you into my quote. This will make it known that even though you quoted something that I said, you changed/added to it and have included it into the quotation that you attributed to me. :) Or you can just quote what I said exactly and then add clarification or questions about what was meant in that quote outside of the quotations. I will appreciate that.

Thank you in advance,

Dr. T

Okay. No problem. I'll be happy to oblige. Consider that a done deal for the future.

And if you'll show me an instance of what I did in the past, I'll edit to your satisfaction. :)

[Dr T]

Thank you, Ray. You were actually correct; I was talking about Jesus' sacrifice/atonement for sins in that quotation. Adding the clarifying (Atonement) was not a problem in that quote. I just wanted to bring it up for future quotes just in case something is added that makes it look like something that I said, but in actuality did not. Thank you for being so gracious with that. :)

Dr. T

[pushka]

Hi Rosie,

I'd like to 2nd what Ray said about your post. It was very good, and the points raised that we should concentrate on what each religion agrees about rather than their disagreements is just what I believe too.

[prisonchaplain]

No... you confused me more...

The trinity states (and correct me PLEASE if I am wrong) that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one and the same... were I, as LDS, believe that they are one in PURPOSE.

I don't get the diagram, because it contradicts itself.. :S

Not quite. The Trinity describes The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinct persons, but with only one essence. So, they truly are three persons. Yet, they truly are one God. You say, "But, that's not logically possible!" Yet, that is what Scripture our Scriptures say, and what we believe.

In contrast, LDS say There are three personages that make up the one Godhead, and that only the Father is truly GOD. The response is, "How is that possible--to append non-God to God, and say there is one godhead? If you worship Jesus, and say He is a separate personage, are you not polytheists? LDS answer, it may be difficult to grasp, but this is what our Scriptures say. We worship only one God, but believe in three totally separate, distinct personages within the Godhead.

[Outshined]

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/godhead/index.htm

[prisonchaplain]

I went to a chatholic school (When I was chatholic) and they told me that Jesus was God's incarnate in the flesh....but that makes no sense...Why would I be here? My understanding is directly linked to Jesus and God and the Holy Ghost being VERY SEPERATE but one in purpose... to get us to return home..

And that Jesus is on the right hand of the Father, and that the Holy Ghost is our guide on earth.

THAT is understandable doctrine, and I believe Jesus spoke plainly to us and that He would not give us anything that would confuse His children..

It confuses the non-LDS just as much to hear about one true God, three distinct, separate personages, that Jesus is to be worshipped, but is not really God, but he is one with God in purpose, and so is part of the Godhead. Jesus and Father having distinct bodies, but not the Holy Spirit--him being a spirit-personage.

I'm not debating the truth or non-truth of the Trinity verses the LDS Godhead, just pointing out that neither one is easy to wrap our mind around. Perhaps this is because God's ways are not our ways? He is more advanced than us, so it is only natural that we would struggle to understand his nature?

IMHO the "confusing = not true" argument is a wash. We'll do better to simply figure out what God says about his nature.

[Gwen]

to part of the original question,

i have a knowledge of the truthfulness of the gospel of the LDS church. i was raised learning the doctrine, but as a teenager had to ask myself if it was the path i desired. through much reading and prayer i did come to a knowledge of the truth. it was through inspiration of the Holy Ghost. i know many have been in these forums asking why that is always the answer. they want to hear something more than a "burning in my bossom" and i can understand the frustration. it's like describing the taste of salt to someone who has never had it, or the smell of fresh baked bread to someone who has never smelled it, or describing a rainbow to someone who has never seen. for those who have experianced it there is no more compleat and definative answer than i know through testamony and revelation of the Holy Spirit. but for those that have never felt that, it makes no since and is an incompleat answer. all i can say is take the time to gather the ingreadants, mix, knead, let rise, knead again, let rise, knead again, let rise but again, put it in the oven, give it some time and see for yourself how the aroma fills your home, your heart, and brings peace and comfort. then you will understand the description of true testamony.

To anyone who can answer,

on to one of the side topics that has arisen. i do not ask in the spirit of contention, i truley want to understand others beleifs. how can i understand a person if i refuse to respect their convictions? one of the issues has been about faith or works bringing about salvation. a comment was made (i apologize for not knowing exactly where or who)

"Good works are a product of our salvation"

please correct if my understanding is off. does this mean that as our hearts are changed toward God, our salvation is made more sure, and that in turn changes our works; there fore making works the evidence and assurance or our salvation?

if this is the case then here is my confusion the only ones receiving compleat salvation would be those with perfect works evidencing them. however, beleiving none are perfect, that would make salvation unatainable.

again be pacient with my understanding, i'm not looking for a debate but an understanding of the principle.

i know many have given their descriptions of how faith and works come together, but if y'all will humor me with mine. i understand it like this. let me make a parallel, my step-son was worried about when he would get a chance to buy his mom a mother's day present without her knowing, he had been saving his money for this and wanted it to be a surprise. he would be with us the weekend before so i promised him i would take him to the store if he brought his money and he could go then so it would be a surprise to her. he brought his money, we went to many different stores. we spent several hours letting him look at everything and pick out just the right present. in the end we got to the register and he didn't have enough to cover sales tax. i had some items i was buying so i asked him if he would give me all his money then we would purchase together, my covering the tax. he agreed and that is what we did, however, if he had not brought his money or if he had wanted to keep his money and my still buy the gift i would have said no, find a cheaper gift or find another time to shop. i see this like myself. i must save, shop carefully and do all i can, but in the end it won't add up. if i have truly been dedicatied and done all and can and willing to give ALL i have to Jesus then through the atonement, and grace he will cover my taxes. by grace i will be saved after all i can do. if i decide i'll have "fun" now and disrespect the Lord, not follow his ways, and carve my own path and then ask him for his grace to save me, i will be turned away. it boils down to i must earn my salvation through my WORKS, but being imperfect i will NEVER succeed. there fore our merciful father sent his son to allow me to repent accessing his GRACE. so by grace alone i am saved. both principle work in harmony not in conflict. so why do we (myself inclued) allowed the adversary to cause contention among followers of Christ?

Thanks,

ALmom

ps misspelling is a hobby of mine. :) maybe by the grace of God i will be able to in the hereafter. lol

[Dr T]

Good post ALmom,

The common answer I get when I ask what you are posing is "It is by grace that we have been saved, not by works, least any man should boast" which indicates that it is nothing that we do but God's grace is sufficient for ALL sins. Anything we try and add to that is foolishness because our works are "rags" to God. Like you said,

it boils down to i must earn my salvation through my WORKS, but being imperfect i will NEVER succeed. there fore our merciful father sent his son to allow me to repent accessing his GRACE. so by grace alone i am saved.

You point out the conflict when you say

it boils down to i must earn my salvation through my WORKS

but as you said, "we can't." This has been the debate that I have read. Christians would say, "It is not possible to earn salvation-no matter how good you are" and then say "the good works" that are done are an out pouring of the faith within-knowing all along that these works are useless for salvation. They are done because of the life change in your life and devotion to God (period). The next line is "We do it because we do not want to slap Jesus in the face by continuing in our old sinful ways."

please correct if my understanding is off. does this mean that as our hearts are changed toward God, our salvation is made more sure, and that in turn changes our works; there fore making works the evidence and assurance or our salvation?

Christians would not say "our salvation is made more sure." Again, what was done by Jesus (covering all sins for those that believe) is complete ("It is finished") there is nothing we can add. That is how I have come to understand what you are asking.

Dr. T

[Gwen]

Thank you Dr T that does help some, i guess what i am saying that that both are REQUIRED one is incompleat without the other.

i get what you are saying about not wanting to slap Jesus in the face. we agree on that point as far as that is why one should try to do good and repent when we fall short instead of saying well i can repent so why try. no one deserves to be treated so horribly especially Jesus. but i still don't fully get that there is no requirement on works, if not then do those who have been "saved" but don't respect what Jesus has done the way you and i have, get the same reward? i beleive in a merciful God but also a just one. If works are not required then how do you balance justice and mercy? If the answer is already in what you have said i apoligize for missing it.

Thanks,

ALmom

P.S. i assume you are trying like me. :) also, i do consider myself to be christian. maybe we could say a non LDS might say. ... . or other christians would say. . . . :)

[Dr T]

Good question ALmom,

I'll do some thinking about this but my initial response would be "an all perfect God requires perfection" and "we are unable to be perfect." Humans were/are in need or a pure sacrifice-which was accomplished through Jesus on the cross. When someone accepts that we are finite and fallen creatures, in need of a savior and Jesus' saving atonement for our sins and become spiritually born again, then we are presented to the father as pure/spotless/perfect. My guess is taht we all (I do) continue to mess up and we try and change that action/thought/etc. as we "grow in the Lord." None of these "corrections" to our sins make us "more saved" in any way. I foresee, heaven as being in the presence of God. What can be better than that? What more need might there be? I have read that there are different "rewards" in heaven like crowns-but these crown are cast at the feet of Jesus. I'd have to look into that idea more but I think being with God is all we need/should desire. Just my off the cuff thoughts.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Gwen]

Dr T,

thank you for your off the cuff thoughts. they were helpful in my understanding your views. however, i do now have some more questions. i think the line of those questions will end up taking us more toward the thread The Atonement created this morning than the one we are actually on. i see you had questions there too. it might help us to consiladate the discussion? anyway, i'm new at the forum social protocal. :) so if you'll let me know where you would like me to post my new questions that would be great, or if you don't want to hear them at all, it is all fine with me. :)

thank,

ALmom

[Ray]

In contrast, LDS say There are three personages that make up the one Godhead, and that only the Father is truly GOD.

That's not really in harmony with our official (LDS) beliefs, Tommy, but you do have a part of the truth.

I'd personally say that when we (LDS) say "God", we are normally referring to our Father, but we also say sometimes that Jesus is God because He has the fullness of our Father... or all that our Father has... while he yet lives as a separate person.

And btw, we (LDS) are not the only ones who have ever said that... that our Father is the only true God.

And if you would like, I'll find you a scripture where our Lord once said that Himself.

The response is, "How is that possible--to append non-God to God, and say there is one godhead?

Heh, anytime anyone says there is only ONE or THE <LDS> response to a question, they are only showing that they haven't heard from others who are LDS. And instead of continuing to hear from other people, I would rather just listen to God. And if God changes His mind, or He changes His rules, I will still choose to listen to God.

If you worship Jesus, and say He is a separate personage, are you not polytheists?

Well aren't you, or aren't you? Don't you say He's a separate person?

Or do you believe there is somehow a difference between a person and a personage, if by using the word person you're referring to a form or entity and not just some regular, human person.

LDS answer,

Sorry to burst your bubble, Tommy, but all LDS are not "one" yet, so again there is more than one LDS response, and you can know that by asking other LDS.

... it may be difficult to grasp, but this is what our Scriptures say.

Heh, would you look at that. That personal "Scriptures" guy is "saying" things again.

Does that mean "your" scriptures were written by someone who did not write "our" personal scriptures?

Why not just say who personally wrote down those scriptures... the ones that you are referring to???

We worship only one God, but believe in three totally separate, distinct personages within the Godhead.

Yes. That is right.

The God that we (LDS) worship is the only <true> God there really is, and ever will be, in all of existence.

And the one true God exists as "separate, distinct personages" who are all in their essence one God.

I like it when we do agree. :)

[Dr T]

Hi Ray,

You said,

The God that we (LDS) worship is the only <true> God there really is, and ever will be, in all of existence.

What about the God that preceded him? What about the god that will follow him in the LDS belief system? Are they not real gods? When you say "only" that seems to suggest "alone in a class" and "sole." Maybe you can clarify what you mean.

Thank you,

Dr. T

[Ray]

Okay, I'll try to clarify.

No matter how many "persons" there are or may be in what is known as "God", whether 1, or 3, or many more (we'll someday see), there is only one true God in all of existence... again, regardless of whether there is 1, or 3, or many more "persons".

Better now???

Try thinking of that. Get it ALL figured out. Then take 3 aspirins and call me in the morning. :)

[Maureen]

And the one true God exists as "separate, distinct personages" who are all in their essence one God.

I like it when we do agree. :)

Ray, are you saying that you agree with the above statement - you believe the above statement to be true? If so, I am shocked, it's a good shock, but still a shock.

M.

[LionHeart]

Here's somthing that confuses me about the trinity theory; correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding of it is that the Father, is God; the Holy Spirit is His manifestation in the spirit, and Jesus is His manifestation in the flesh. All being the same being.

So the part that confuses me is this: when we read the account of Jesus' baptism, the Holy Spirit descended from Heaven in the form of a dove, and a voice spoke from Heaven saying: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." So at this point we have record of all three members of the trinity together in one area, except occupying three different plots of real estate.

What is the deal? Could someone please clear this up for me?

L.H.