And so, old problems rear their head in a new way

[annewandering]

It might pay to see a counselor and ask them what might be the problem and how you could deal with it. Have you tried to help her feel self worth? I am going to bet she hates herself and feels like a failure. Perhaps you can involve her in small things like helping to move something. Just get her involved with you and the kids. And dont criticize. Something is wrong. And it really isnt the housework.

Honestly in reading your posts I see someone who is very very organized to the point of obsession. Maybe even, yikes, controlling. If I were her, I would hide in the bedroom too.

Edited October 31, 2011 by annewandering

[Guest mormonmusic]

Honestly in reading your posts I see someone who is very very organized to the point of obsession. Maybe even, yikes, controlling. If I were her, I would hide in the bedroom too.

I laugh when I read that. And to some extent, I expected it. My standards are not high, you will have to trust me.

Here is a link to a picture of how my house gets when my influence is not present, except add dirty dishes with caked on food, food dried into the counter, the floor dirty with food splashes, etcetera. And paper garbage, and sometimes banana peels or other organic stuff in it if someone was too lazy to put it in the garbage after eating. Oh, and did I mention the pervasive smell of cat urine and faeces becuase the litter box has not been changed regularly -- all through the house And also, the nasty letter I got from our landlady in our first couple years of marrage when the stench from the room in which my wife kept the cat permeated the whole house we were renting, including her upstairs? As well as her complaints about "filthiness" etcetera. i was so ashamed!!! And, because my wife would not clean up the cat faeces, and I would gag when I did it, I eventually had to pay to remove the floor in that room, and replace it with a new one, including new tile (not ceramic, but the kind you see in schools, which absorved urine stench).

Image Detail for - http://www.clker.com/cliparts/d/d/8/b/12997859861189710850messy-room-1-1024x768-hi.png

This is not my house -- but it's similar to what I have had to live with when I get busy or just frustrated.

Now, here is a picture that is similar to what my house looks like today after our little talk last night -- the first one in about six months. Again, not my house, but similar, except I would say mine is a bit more cluttered, with laundry baskets out, a musical instrument on a couch, and a couple of pieces of paper on the floor. But nothing that couldn't be tidied up easily and some shelves that aren't well organized, but it's something I can live with happily:

Image Detail for - http://gallery.dnolan.com/d/2405-2/HouseMove+051.jpg

Edited October 31, 2011 by mormonmusic

[annewandering]

:) Thanks! Well that is a relief. For me anyway. lol. I have to wonder if she wouldnt benefit from some counseling. You too.

I have some relatives that are hoarders. Not saying that your wife is. They have something wrong with them and could use some help understanding why. Oddly one had a tumor that when it was removed she became a very neat housekeeper. Doubt your wife has that! The point remains that she has something wrong going on.

[applepansy]

MM, you're a breath of fresh air. So many spouses (men and women) are willing to throw in the towel when things get rough. You've been willing to see it through no matter what has been thrown at you and no matter what you've had to endure.

Often its our attitude about adversity that gets us through tough times or sends us crashing down in defeat.

I have one suggestion regarding your daughter. She's 12... in YW's right? Talk to her leaders and let them know that she needs help learning to sew. There is most likely someone in your ward who would be willing to help her learn.

[Guest mormonmusic]

You can share your concerns with your daughter. She sees the problems. She will be able to understand. It will not lessen her love for her mother at all. It will only help her better see and learn to cope with her mothers flaws. And as you share that intimate time of trust and confidence with your daughter, your own relationship with her will grow with love and understanding.

Thanks Judo -- Sincerely. This what I was wondering about. I don't want to drive a wedge between my wife and my daughter. She is very adult-minded for a 12 year old, and makes adult perceptions. I told you about the time she cleaned my room when I was sick so she knows what is important to me. I want to open up about my frustrations too, and then work together to keep the place clean.

You don't feel resentful to your mother about the way she bothers your Dad? What is his approach that has maintained the respect for both parents? Just how much did he share, and how often?

[RMGuy]

You have a PM

-RM

[Guest mormonmusic]

MM, you're a breath of fresh air. So many spouses (men and women) are willing to throw in the towel when things get rough. You've been willing to see it through no matter what has been thrown at you and no matter what you've had to endure.

Often its our attitude about adversity that gets us through tough times or sends us crashing down in defeat.

I have one suggestion regarding your daughter. She's 12... in YW's right? Talk to her leaders and let them know that she needs help learning to sew. There is most likely someone in your ward who would be willing to help her learn.

I thought of that, but I tried this approach once with something else, but the person I approached said "I think your wife should do that -- she knows how to [insert task here] doesn't she?". It would have to be someone who doesn't know my wife's sewing abilities.

Also, I have to be a bit careful. Our YW presidency barely functions. I had hoped they would develop my daughter's interest and talent in organizing events, and offered my support when she was called a class president. They said they would get be me a calendar and let me know how I could help. Nothing happened after three months. I asked again, and nothing happened. So finally I approached her advisor again and offered to just calendar an activity and coach my daughter directly.

That was a mistake as she got a bit defensive -- as it really wasn't my place to do that. She did then meet with my daughter and there is supposed to be a daughter-driven activity in the works. I don't want to be too demanding.

I think I might download the manual to the sewing machine and figure it out myself. But I appreciate the suggestion.

Also, at the risk, of identifying myself, I've posted a couple pictures of my daughter...just briefly and then I will take them down....as she's matured and turned into the kindest, most mature and thoughtful person I know, I believe she was God's gift for the commitment I have shown to my marriage over the years. And yes, I guess I'm a proud father in posting them. The second one is more like her as the first one photoshopped her freckles and made her eyes pop...She is very charming and easy to love and be proud of. I give thanks regularly for this gift from God, as she's truly a gem at heart.

[removed]

The pictures will come down in a day or so...

Edited November 1, 2011 by mormonmusic

[annewandering]

Does her school have sewing classes? Homemaking classes? If sewing is something your daughter wants to do your wife might actually be interested in teaching her. Or did you already say she doesnt? Anyway you could also check the material shops out in your area. Many of them have sewing classes, maybe even for free since it helps their business.

Heres one link to online sewing help. Just google and you will see lots out there. Some free some paid.

Teaching Children to Sew

How To Sew - Free and Simple Ways to Learn Sewing

Edited October 31, 2011 by annewandering

[Guest mormonmusic]

Thanks...my wife knows how to do it and I'm sure we can find someone. I watched her sew a hem the other day. She cut the fabric, and then folded the ragged edge like a mini-hem. Then she ironed it to make it more permanent, and then sewed the mini-hem. Then she folder THAT over in the final hem and sewed that.

I thought it would make it even better if we sprayed starch on it to make it firm, but what do I know.

My biggest issue will be operating the sewing machine. I have never used one.

The sewing work got done the other. My wife just did it for her, but my daughter still wants to learn.

[annewandering]

Your wife did it the right way. You could use starch but I never did. Sometimes I use pins but not for simple hems. Its amazing what you can find on the internet. Your daughter will be fine. lol I just remembered another site. let me go find it. ahhh yes. this is a wonderful site you might find fun and worthwhile. FlyLady.net: Your personal online coach to help you gain control of your house and home

[Guest mormonmusic]

She did Flylady for a while. It was heaven -- the dishwasher got emptied regularly and we never ran out of dishes - -that was her job that she selected. No more drinking out of measuring cups or washing dishes because the dishwasher hand't been run.

I love the Flylady's CHAOS syndrome -- Can't Have Anyone Over Syndrome. I KNOW what that is!!

[annewandering]

She did Flylady for a while. It was heaven -- the dishwasher got emptied regularly and we never ran out of dishes - -that was her job that she selected. No more drinking out of measuring cups or washing dishes because the dishwasher hand't been run.

I love the Flylady's CHAOS syndrome -- Can't Have Anyone Over Syndrome. I KNOW what that is!!

Dig it out for her again but make it a family project. I can use a refresher on it myself. :) And boy we do know what the CHAOS theory is around here too. :)

[Guest]

I couldn't handle 20 emails a day telling me to go shine my sink. Eventually I emailed back to go shine her own d*mn sink and unsubscribed. :)

[Guest mormonmusic]

"Your entire post looks like a desperate clawing for the next thing to try on your wife.

The opening post was more what to say to my daughter. Judo adressed it earlier from her experience. WE then digressed into the wife-changing thing.

Was there any homework from that marriage builders class on how to forgive, accept, and move on? Go do it again. That's my comment on what to do, and you asked for comments on what to do. Maybe in the afterlife, when she's released from the burdens and limitations of being her, she'll clean. But the more you take offense that you're not seeing it in this life, the more time you're wasting making your marriage worse instead of better.

I don't agree. You can't live for decades with core needs unmet. I have adopted such forgetting and coping strategies for months at a time, but it rears its head after a visitor makes a comment, my daughter raises the sleeping giant, or I just get fed up with it all.

As far as what Harley (marriagebuidlers genius) said -=- It's simply not fair or sustainable for someone to live their whole life with their emotional needs unmet. This is the nature of service in marriage. I understand it now -- it's a matter of meeting the other person's emotional needs, and this often means changing. THAT is what service is in marriage -- on both ends.

And, my assessment is correct. I DO meet certain powerful emotional needs in my wife and this is what allows me to raise these issues at sporadic intervals, adn then get stretches of relief as she helps -- as she did last night. In spite of it bothering her, she does a cost-benefit analysis of the whole relationship, and decides its better to support me-- at least for a while. This gives me relief, and hope.

And guess what. There has been progress. I am still married. My temple covenant is still intact. I have periods of happiness when my wife shows her love by cooperating with me. My kids have a stable family (although yes, there are some bumps in the road). My daughter is somehow blossoming through all this in her personal character. And today, my house is basically clean and organized -- and I have hope again. All because I refuse to "move on". It's hard to move one when you end up in the same place. The hope of change, and the gradual improvement therein is what keeps me going!

Edited October 31, 2011 by mormonmusic

[applepansy]

Thanks...my wife knows how to do it and I'm sure we can find someone. I watched her sew a hem the other day. She cut the fabric, and then folded the ragged edge like a mini-hem. Then she ironed it to make it more permanent, and then sewed the mini-hem. Then she folder THAT over in the final hem and sewed that.

I thought it would make it even better if we sprayed starch on it to make it firm, but what do I know.

My biggest issue will be operating the sewing machine. I have never used one.

The sewing work got done the other. My wife just did it for her, but my daughter still wants to learn.

Sewing is more than just knowing how the machine runs. Successfully sewing is learning how to manipulate the fabric in a way that makes a garment or project. The manual for the machine itself won't teach that.

Depending on what the hem is for would determine if starch is appropriate. Usually its not. Other than that she did the hem correctly. Small fold then larger "hem" stitched in place.

Would you wife be opposed to someone giving sewing lessons? My mother paid someone to teach me. the motivation for my mother was that she didn't want to do the mending. The only thing I've ever done that made my mother happy was doing the sewing/mending for the family. If your wife saw the benefit to her would she be ok?

[JudoMinja]

Thanks Judo -- Sincerely. This what I was wondering about. I don't want to drive a wedge between my wife and my daughter. She is very adult-minded for a 12 year old, and makes adult perceptions. I told you about the time she cleaned my room when I was sick so she knows what is important to me. I want to open up about my frustrations too, and then work together to keep the place clean.

You don't feel resentful to your mother about the way she bothers your Dad? What is his approach that has maintained the respect for both parents? Just how much did he share, and how often?

I do not resent my mother in the least. Sure there are some things about her that I wish could be changed. Sure there are times when I feel like, if I could just share with her my knowledge and perceptions, that her understanding and behavior would change for the better. But I do not resent her. I have come to recognize that both she and my father are imperfect adult individuals, just like myself. They both have their strong points and their weak points. Sometimes, they complement one another, and other times it causes clashes and misunderstandings, but we all get past it. :) That's part of being a family.

My mother talks with me very openly about my fathers flaws and what about his behavior bothers her and gets under her skin. It doesn't lessen my opinion of him any either. She has told me that they went to marriage counseling, and she's shared with me what she learned there- about how they can communicate with each other better, about how things my father would do were evidence of his love for her, and things that bothered her were just a part of his character that wouldn't change and weren't meant to be taken harshly. Every time she opens up with me about her hardships with dad, she never fails to end by telling me how much she loves him "warts and all".

She also shares with me the times that they talk with each other, and that my father always expresses to her his gratitude for what she does. How greatful he is that she works so hard to maintain the budget and the housework. How he loves and appreciates her for all her hard work and effort in everything she strives to do. How her support in the home has given him great peace-of-mind as he goes about his work. Make sure you remember the good qualities that you love about your wife and compliment them often, and share your sincere love and appreciation for her strengths. This is what my mother always comes back to when she has her moments of self-doubt and insecurity. I know she values it very much.

My father isn't much of a talker. He expresses much more with his actions than he does with his words, so my moments of "confidence" with him have been few. But I remember them, and I always remember how he handles his disagreements with her. When he has talked with me, it has always been after a particular difficult moment with my mother, when something really bothered me deeply. In each of these moments, I could tell from his mere presence that he loves my mother very much, that he understands my pain, and that he knows my mother is not perfect- that her actions are sometimes hurtful- but he always chooses to let it roll off his back and move on. When he has talked with me, I don't always remember everything he says, but I do remember that every time- no matter what it was about- he tells me how much he loves my mother.

Your daughter can see the flaws in both your wife and you . It sounds like she has a good head on her shoulders, and I'm sure she's figuring things out. Whether you are more of a "talker" and want to share things openly like my mother does with me, or you are more of a "silent" one, I think the most important thing is that you acknowledge there is imperfection, that you understand the hurt and pain it causes, but that there is an unquenchable love and appreciation for the good qualities in your wife.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Judo -- this is wise advice, and it is like balm to me. Thanks. I see the key is to perhaps share the frustrations, but also share one's undying commitment to the spouse at the same time, as well as the love you share.

Now, has the experience of watching your parents, and being privvy to some fo the challenges helped you in identifying what you NEED in a marriage to be happy? How did it affect your own romantic relationships in the future, if at all?

[JudoMinja]

Now, has the experience of watching your parents, and being privvy to some fo the challenges helped you in identifying what you NEED in a marriage to be happy? How did it affect your own romantic relationships in the future, if at all?

That particular question is a bit harder to put my finger on... I never cared much for dating growing up, so I lacked experience in romantic relations going into college. There I started feeling the emotional need and drive for a relationship and let desperation get the better of me. I ended up in a terribly abusive relationship, and I did indeed learn quite a bit comparing that relationship to my parents.

When I first came home, my mother questioned whether it was her fault I ended up in an abusive relationship. If she had done something wrong raising us that had caused me to pick the "wrong kind of guy". She felt certain that there had to be something she'd done wrong, because my older brother married a very manipulative and abusive woman and seems to have a habit of picking out manipulative dates. She made a connection that we both made bad choices, so it had to be something wrong with her parenting.

After quite a bit of therapy and study, I've concluded that none of the hardships I went through growing up contributed to me making a "wrong decision". If anything, seeing the healthy way my parents handled disagreements helped me get out of my unhealthy relationship before it was too late- and comparing their healthy relationship to my unhealthy one has been a MAJOR help in recognizing what I should be looking for now.

My parents have a pretty amazing marriage. It's not perfect, but it IS healthy. I've seen how two people with very flawed personalities can come together and make things work. They provided a wonderful stable home for me, gave me good solid ground to look back on so that I could quickly heal from my wounds when I made a pretty serious mistake.

I'm still working on exactly what I need out of a romantic relationship myself, but I feel like I've pretty much got it figured out. If it weren't for the good example of my parents marriage, I wouldn't have had much to compare to to recognize that my own marriage was very off-kilter. So, while I think seeing my parent's relationship was helpful, there's only so much help it can offer. The rest needs to come from experience, and I was sadly lacking in experience when my unhealthy man came along.

If you're concerned about your daughter knowing how to make sure her emtional and romantic needs are met and that she can meet her husbands when the time for such a relationship comes, I think it is important to support her healthy dating- so she can get some experience getting to know several different guys- their characteristics and personalities, and then compare that to the relationship of her parents and what she feels like she personally wants out of a relationship. Seeing where there is a lack and how a couple can make it work- even with some difficulties- is wonderful, because I think it will be hard to find someone who naturally meets all ones emotional needs without difficulty.

[NeuroTypical]

The opening post was more what to say to my daughter. Judo adressed it earlier from herYou can't live for decades with core needs unmet. I have adopted such forgetting and coping strategies for months at a time, but it rears its head after a visitor makes a comment, my daughter raises the sleeping giant, or I just get fed up with it all.

So again, is your core need to have a clean and orderly house, or is your core need to have a wife that keeps a clean and orderly house?

If the latter, you sure? (I'm reading Victor Frankl's Man's search for meaning right now - he has lots to say about what is a real core need and what really isn't.)

[Windseeker]

I've enjoyed reading this thread and it has helped me put some perspective on my relationship with my wife. I feel like I'm kind of married to MM..haha. I'm more laid back about the house work and for my wife, having messes really stresses her out. She is the step-mom so it's a bit more difficult I think. I've tried to impliment chores and keeping the house clean, but no matter what I do the kids leave messes everywhere and she takes each one like a personal attack on her. They waite till the last minute or under threat before they do anything they are asked. From what I understand of the gospel in order to have the Spirit in the home there needs to be both Love and Order. It seems like I'm focused on the Love and she is more into the Order and they always seem at conflict. To have 'Order' it seems the kids end up feeling unloved because of the effort it takes to get them to maintain the cleanliness of the house.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I've enjoyed reading this thread and it has helped me put some perspective on my relationship with my wife. I feel like I'm kind of married to MM..haha. I'm more laid back about the house work and for my wife, having messes really stresses her out. She is the step-mom so it's a bit more difficult I think. I've tried to impliment chores and keeping the house clean, but no matter what I do the kids leave messes everywhere and she takes each one like a personal attack on her. They waite till the last minute or under threat before they do anything they are asked. From what I understand of the gospel in order to have the Spirit in the home there needs to be both Love and Order. It seems like I'm focused on the Love and she is more into the Order and they always seem at conflict. To have 'Order' it seems the kids end up feeling unloved because of the effort it takes to get them to maintain the cleanliness of the house.

Both are important. One thing that helped me was reading Merillee Boyack's "The Parenting Breakthrough". She made this comment, paraphrased:

"No normal child on earth will willingly do chores or help their parents do housework".

That made me feel TONS better, because I realized my kids were normal. Somehow, with the emphasis, my daughter has caught the vision. My son -- no way. Not yet.

Obviously, we haven't mastered this yet. But I have faith, and hope, it will....today, it has been achieved. That's enough to get through today...

Windseeker -- I have a question. When you walk by a mess made by your kids. What runs through your mind? I'm curious?

Edited October 31, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Guest mormonmusic]

So again, is your core need to have a clean and orderly house, or is your core need to have a wife that keeps a clean and orderly house?

If the latter, you sure? (I'm reading Victor Frankl's Man's search for meaning right now - he has lots to say about what is a real core need and what really isn't.)

I'm sure.

One thing the wear and tear of life has taught me is to NOT invalidate my needs. I need my wife to help me with the home and rearing the family. Without it, I am not happy.

"Help meet" "Eternal Companion" we don't walk alone on that journey! Frankl found meaning in his suffering in the prison camps, but when I read the book, I felt like he did was a really good job of mental gymnastics to get through a hugely extreme and trying situation. Those can work for a time, as I have used them to survive these last two decades in my marriage, but ultimately, they are wearing. To simply have someone who meets your emotional needs is a MUCH better approach.

If I can be cheeky here, I'm reminded of the Altamira Mutual Funds advertisement. There is a person saying "I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is better". In this case, a marriage which is inherently rich with a spouse who meets their companion's emotional needs regularly and powerfully is better. It is impoverished when the only way you can stay "happy" is by ignoring yoru reality and creating another one. If you asked Frankl where he would rather be -- in the prison camp seeking to find meaning in his suffering, or on the outside with his family without any suffering, is there any question what he might choose?

Edited October 31, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Windseeker]

Windseeker -- I have a question. When you walk by a mess made by your kids. What runs through your mind? I'm curious?

Well honestly what runs thru my mind is, I better get this taken care of before my wife sees it. So I tell whomever made the mess to go clean it up. If they don't respond (typical) I either threaten to turn off the computer or TV or whatever is disctracting them or I just do it myself. My actions wouldn't be any different if I was by myself except I wouldn't worry about upsetting my wife.

My kids are spoiled and they have a bad attitude about cleaning up and responsibility in general. We've caught my son (17) just rinsing dishes off with just water and putting them in the drying rack. He wears shoes without socks and now he wants a new pair. I told him to buy his own pair now that he's working he can afford it. He said 'well then basically I'm working for free'... I told him I worked from age 12 and always bought my own cloths. I am working on their attitudes but it irritates my wife and it doesn't seem like she can see any good in them. But they are good kids, somethings I don't worry about them doing drugs or drinking. They go to Church and have made friends but they are just very slow to help out and not responsible in their chores.

Both are important. One thing that helped me was reading Merillee Boyack's "The Parenting Breakthrough". She made this comment, paraphrased:

"No normal child on earth will willingly do chores or help their parents do housework".

That made me feel TONS better, because I realized my kids were normal. Somehow, with the emphasis, my daughter has caught the vision. My son -- no way. Not yet.

I appreciate the quotes. I think they are normal. It's hard for my wife because she was basically doing everything a mother should at age 8 for her family. Never having children of her own until now she is lacking when it comes to understanding development and patience.

I hate contention I always have and now my life is full of it. I try to be the peace maker but I married someone my kids don't like and she doesn't seem to like the kids. I think to her they are just dirty mess makers.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Quick update....I did talk to my wife again. She agreed to look at a list of things that I suggested she do in order to help. They were minimal I thought -- like make one meal a week. Work with my son to clean up his room in the evenings three days a week. I will do it the other days I am home. Do your own job when I initiate family cleaning, and be nice and patent to the kids when you teach them something or they need correction.

Well, she did the job with him on Monday, but when i got home on Tuesday evening, it was 10:30 and he was still awake in his room -- a mess. So, I just went in and did it although it was her day. She came in at the end and offered to help, but the job was done.

I ended up doing it the rest of the week with him. She didn't help. No meal has been made yet, and I ended up doing her kitchen job when the family cleaned.

But the house is clean, which makes things go well.

I also asked her to fill out the emotional needs quesionnaire so we could talk about the kind of job I was doing as a husband. It had been a while since we did it. I followed up twice and she said both times she didnt' have time to do it over the last five days.

But because the house is clean, I feel marginally happy in spite of her lack of help -- for now.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Thought I'd give an update. The typical pattern that restores my marriage to a net positive balance has occurred again. I spoke to my wife and she got angry that what she was doing in the household wasn't good enough. But then, she helped out for a while, and the house has stayed clean since my last rash of postings. I have had to pick up some slack on her part, but the kids have been doing their part. Overall, I'm happy.

My son got in trouble in school, so we both decided to take him to a counselor. Strange, as my daughter is a gem....so we are having trouble figuring out what went wrong. My daughter gets to participate in some family sessions to help understand the causes of his behavior.

In the first visit, the counselor unearthed that fact that there isn't enough parenting unity in our home. It came out clear that I tend to take the responsibility for initiating household routines, yet the things we put in place are not enforced by my wife, which has confused my son. The counselor told her to have "more backbone" which I appreciated.

I really like the counselor who seemed to get to the root of things pretty quickly on a parental level. No doubt I will learn things about myself too. But I thought I'd give an update. Attending the counseling session for the good of my son has been very worthwhile in meeting my family commitment need, as my wife and I talk about our respective parenting roles given the meetings.

Further, the counselor wants us to describe what has happened in our family each week so she can help my son have more positive behavior.

I also intend to share the fact that my daughter came to me with what I felt was a bad parenting decision yesterday on the part of my wife. She wanted me to reverse it. I gave a neutral response, and spoke to my wife about it to verify facts and she got angry with me again. So, we agreed to bring this up to the counselor this week to see what she says. I upheld my wife's decision although I don't agree with it.

And so, my needs get a temporary flush of energy and renewal, and I move on cheerily for a while.

Although I'm glad my marriage steadily improves over time, I also believe it's much better if you can figure out what you need in a spouse before marriage, and then marry into that. This whole thing is a lot of work -- work that I don't see in other marriages where people are compatible, like among some close friends who have shared the deep inner workings of their married life. It's sad there is so little formal ways of preparing for marriage. Can you image how society would be transformed if people married on the basis of their native ability to meet each other's needs than having to guess or develop criteria that may well be irrelevent after the marriage has occurred?

Edited November 6, 2011 by mormonmusic