Warren Jeffs Arrested

[Fiannan]

And Fianan, you continuously earn my respect.

Hey thanks Jason. I also like your post -- good logic and history.

A collegue brought up the story today and she asked me if I'd heard about the Mormon guy arrested yesterday. I took the opportunity to explain the difference between the Mormon stand and the fundamentalist Mormon stand on polygamy as well as government organization. Finally I just said that it was like looking at Lutherans and Catholics. The Lutherans split from the Catholics. Both still call themselves Christian however, although up until Vatican 2 many Catholics considered Protestants somewhat like apostates and maybe a little less than Christian. Kinda like the way many Mormons look upon the fundamentalists.

I would urge people to consider the fundamentalists are who they are because they refused to obey a church directive. They still revere modern prophets until President Woodruf came along and they use the same standard Mormon scriptures the general Mormon Church uses. And judging from some of the documentaries I have seen it looks like they buy many of their goods at LDS stores because their homes have the same general pictures of Christ, Mormon-culture statues people display in their homes, etc. I'll bet many even pick up educational materials from church distribution centers.

[Jason]

I would urge people to consider the fundamentalists are who they are because they refused to obey a church directive. They still revere modern prophets until President Woodruf came along and they use the same standard Mormon scriptures the general Mormon Church uses. And judging from some of the documentaries I have seen it looks like they buy many of their goods at LDS stores because their homes have the same general pictures of Christ, Mormon-culture statues people display in their homes, etc. I'll bet many even pick up educational materials from church distribution centers.

Most fundamentalists use the Church Quad for their scriptures (ignoring of course the Manifesto and the directive on Blacks and the priesthood). They do buy their church "stuff" from Deseret Book and the like. And depending on the group you talk with, many rever the first six LDS Church Presidents, not just the first Three.

So the AUB generally reveres Smith, Young, Taylor, Woodruff, Snow and J.F. Smith.

The TLC, on the other hand, only recognizes Smith, Young and Taylor, considering Woodruff an apostate.

All Fundamentalists, however, have a general distain for Heber J. Grant, with many considering him as evil as say some Catholics would consider Pope Alexander VI. I've heard it many times said that he was the "man of sin" spoken of in 2 Thessalonians.

[StrawberryFields]

I kind of skiped over most of the post. The post that I did read were pretty predictable. Nothing wrong with that, I just find it boring.

I, in no way, wan't to live the polygamy life style and can in no way defend it, when a Prophet of the lord say's that we will no longer practice it. I have met a few practicing polygamest, through different jobs I have worked over the years. Most of them that I have spent time with, are for the most part, are pretty nice people. Yah that's what I said, pretty nice people.

What Jeff's did kicked him way out of nice people catagory into sick and preverse.

Pretty simple if you ask me.

Allmosthumble

I agree with you Almosthumble.

This is pretty big news here in Southern Utah. When he gets here he will only be about 5 mins from where I live.

A few weeks ago I was driving through Colorado City and Hilldale at night traveling from Kanab to St. George. It was a very errie feeling as we drove trough there. I have alway heard pretty wild stories about the police force and how they are under the direction of Warren Jeffs. The reason for a travel through there at night was a purchase of a new car we had purchased in AZ. I told my husband to be sure to follow the speed limit in his new targa especially in this town and that I didn't want any reason to be pulled over there. Just in the middle of the interstate traveling through there I noticed someones headlights coming upon us quickly. I mentioned this to my hubby. As they got a little closer I my husband said "No Way!" they had turned on a flashing red light. My husband took his foot off the gas to let them catch up. The car backed off and we wrote it off as kids at play. This leader doesn't obey the law, he makes his own law. On the news they have talked about this many times.

I don't feel any kind of affiliation with the polygamist people. As a matter of fact I look at them as people stuck in a time warp who live and breathe the same air I do but are trapped in a bubble and can't get out. To make eye contact with them is something very rare. In the Wal-Mart in Washington Utah where they do a great deal of shopping it's as if they want to be invisiable to those of us they see as sinners.

To see Warren Jeffs on TV captured at first was a Great feeling. Now that he is captured I think the media attention should go away and not allow him to play the martar.

[Dr T]

What if someone shot him? Would they (FLDS) have a stronger feeling that he was "the one"?

[Princess3dward]

I think they will just disregard him and wait for another... hopefully one who wont break the law..

I don't know though...

[Gwen]

To Jason's comment "Spiritually speaking, you do. My uncle is still sealed to his first two wives, even though he's divorced to both of them. So he's sealed to three women right now. My dad is sealed to my deceased mother and my step-mother. So he's a spiritual polygamist as well.

So to deny you practice polygamy is a farce to say the least. Just because you don't allow the men to have sex with the women they're sealed to (if alive) doesn't deny the practice."

Paperwork does not an eternal marriage make. A sealing is a potential blessing based upon your worthyness of it. yes being sealed does give one the oportunity to have an eternal marriage, but the two people must live lives and a marriage such to be worthy of said blessings. Divorce is not a marriage worthy of such blessings. What your uncle and many others have is nothing more than paperwork. To put is short there is no sealing. I think if you talked to most divorce people they would say that being married to that person for eternity wouldn't be Heaven. It would be the exact opposite. This life is not about the paperwork, it is about having made and living worthy of covenants with your Heavenly Father. The paperwork is simply a tool used for this life. Our Heavenly Father knows with or without paperwork who is worthy and who is not.

thanks,

ALmom

p.s. I am very new at this and I can't spell so please be pacient with me.

[Dr T]

Welcome Almom :)

[Princess3dward]

I don't like the idea of spiritually sharing my future husband.

If I died first and he ever got resealed.. or remarried at all, he is getting a spiritual smacking!

I will make sure he knows that to...!

[Maureen]

I don't like the idea of spiritually sharing my future husband.

If I died first and he ever got resealed.. or remarried at all, he is getting a spiritual smacking!

I will make sure he knows that to...!

I can understand eventual remarriage after sometime of grieving and adjusting to widow/erhood. But what if the widowed spouse made plans to remarry only 3 months after his/her first spouse's death, and then actually remarried 3 months later (6 months in total of spouse's death). What are your feelings about hasty 2nd marriages, Desire? I'm just curious about your opinion because of your above quote.

M.

[Jason]

Paperwork does not an eternal marriage make. A sealing is a potential blessing based upon your worthyness of it. yes being sealed does give one the oportunity to have an eternal marriage, but the two people must live lives and a marriage such to be worthy of said blessings. Divorce is not a marriage worthy of such blessings. What your uncle and many others have is nothing more than paperwork. To put is short there is no sealing. I think if you talked to most divorce people they would say that being married to that person for eternity wouldn't be Heaven. It would be the exact opposite. This life is not about the paperwork, it is about having made and living worthy of covenants with your Heavenly Father. The paperwork is simply a tool used for this life. Our Heavenly Father knows with or without paperwork who is worthy and who is not.

thanks,

ALmom

p.s. I am very new at this and I can't spell so please be pacient with me.

Are you comparing a Priesthood ceremony to a "paper work" justice of the peace type of marriage?

And are you saying that my dad won't be married to my mom and step-mom in the next life?

[Gwen]

Are you comparing a Priesthood ceremony to a "paper work" justice of the peace type of marriage?

And are you saying that my dad won't be married to my mom and step-mom in the next life?

first of all i am still figuring this out.

what i am saying is that having been sealed is no gaurentee of a blessing. all blessings are contengent upon our actions and commitments to that covenant. all blessings or covenants are two part. if you . . . then the Lord will . . . the Lord is a constant we are the variable. if we don't want the blessing then we don't have to have it. but if we do our part then the Lord will always come through for us. i very much value my sealing to my husband and it means more to me than anything. And i am sure your father and your mom and step-mom value theirs. what i'm saying is no person is forced into anything. that in the hereafter your dad and mom and step-mom and our/their Heavenly Father will decide what is the eternal reward based on their worthyness and desires. who are we to make that judgment for them. weither or not they are married is going to be their decision. the "paperwork" comment is more greard to the divorce aspect. Let me be a little personal and maybe you will understand.

my husband had been sealed and she left him there was a divorce then we met and married. i was not happy about the previous sealing, the last thing i wanted was to be sharing my eternities with someone who didn't even want him. i proceeded to do a lot of research. if the marriage covenant can't or won't be lived here it dosen't matter if they were sealed or not, the actions weren't lived. I take comfort in this. However, i again had to figure this out when my parents divorced 18months after my marriage (they too were sealed). where did that leave me? my father then went on to be re-sealed. what i learned is that my parents are my parents, no matter what. what is most important is the sealing to our spouse and what we do with our agency. we can't controle anyone else. as for my mother she is still "sealed" to my dad, but she is by no means going to be forced into a union after death that isn't desired. nor will my husbands ex or your uncles.

our heavenly father isn't governed by paperwork. if the records building of a chruch burned down does that then make all the baptisims for that churdh invalid? of course not, it is if they live what they promised, not if the certificate exists. by the same measure if someone gets baptized and then years later denounces it in words and goes on a killing spree do they get blessings we worked hard to earn? that dosen't make since either, just because there is paperwork saying we were baptized dosen't mean we can do whatever we want and still be rewarded. We choose our eternal path by what we do, not what certificates we produce. remember we can't bring a paper cirtificate with us after death, only us. that's where divorce and death make a huge difference in this issue.

I don't know if i just made this more confusing. and i don't think it is any longer on the original topic. sorry.

ALmom

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

I don't like the idea of spiritually sharing my future husband.

If I died first and he ever got resealed.. or remarried at all, he is getting a spiritual smacking!

I will make sure he knows that to...!

I can understand eventual remarriage after sometime of grieving and adjusting to widow/erhood. But what if the widowed spouse made plans to remarry only 3 months after his/her first spouse's death, and then actually remarried 3 months later (6 months in total of spouse's death). What are your feelings about hasty 2nd marriages, Desire? I'm just curious about your opinion because of your above quote.

M.

It depends..

Mormons are usually quick to get married..

And we don't usually have long engadgments..

So if they wern't sealed before, than fine..

I want my dad to get sealed..

And I want to get sealed to a woman who can be a mother role model for me in the church..

Dad getting married would be a huge blessing for me.

Second merraiges don't happen much in my family, because they don't see a point in getting married in the first place.

I don't have many LDS members in my family.

[Jason]

first of all i am still figuring this out.

what i am saying is that having been sealed is no gaurentee of a blessing. all blessings are contengent upon our actions and commitments to that covenant. all blessings or covenants are two part. if you . . . then the Lord will . . . the Lord is a constant we are the variable. if we don't want the blessing then we don't have to have it. but if we do our part then the Lord will always come through for us. i very much value my sealing to my husband and it means more to me than anything. And i am sure your father and your mom and step-mom value theirs. what i'm saying is no person is forced into anything. that in the hereafter your dad and mom and step-mom and our/their Heavenly Father will decide what is the eternal reward based on their worthyness and desires. who are we to make that judgment for them. weither or not they are married is going to be their decision. the "paperwork" comment is more greard to the divorce aspect. Let me be a little personal and maybe you will understand.

my husband had been sealed and she left him there was a divorce then we met and married. i was not happy about the previous sealing, the last thing i wanted was to be sharing my eternities with someone who didn't even want him. i proceeded to do a lot of research. if the marriage covenant can't or won't be lived here it dosen't matter if they were sealed or not, the actions weren't lived. I take comfort in this. However, i again had to figure this out when my parents divorced 18months after my marriage (they too were sealed). where did that leave me? my father then went on to be re-sealed. what i learned is that my parents are my parents, no matter what. what is most important is the sealing to our spouse and what we do with our agency. we can't controle anyone else. as for my mother she is still "sealed" to my dad, but she is by no means going to be forced into a union after death that isn't desired. nor will my husbands ex or your uncles.

our heavenly father isn't governed by paperwork. if the records building of a chruch burned down does that then make all the baptisims for that churdh invalid? of course not, it is if they live what they promised, not if the certificate exists. by the same measure if someone gets baptized and then years later denounces it in words and goes on a killing spree do they get blessings we worked hard to earn? that dosen't make since either, just because there is paperwork saying we were baptized dosen't mean we can do whatever we want and still be rewarded. We choose our eternal path by what we do, not what certificates we produce. remember we can't bring a paper cirtificate with us after death, only us. that's where divorce and death make a huge difference in this issue.

I don't know if i just made this more confusing. and i don't think it is any longer on the original topic. sorry.

ALmom

Ok, I see what you're saying. But that still does not deny the fact that technically speaking, even if only on paper, the LDS church still practices polygamy.

[Gwen]

Ok, I see what you're saying. But that still does not deny the fact that technically speaking, even if only on paper, the LDS church still practices polygamy.

I guess plural marriage in the eternities could be called "polygamy". However, you must admit that perfected adults each given equal consideration who have proved themselves in life making an informed decision with their Heavenly Father's blessing is very different from the version of "polygamy" that Warren Jeffs is advocating. Pologamy has become a conotation of sick men imposing control and removing the agency of children for their own personal agendas. The two are hardly the same and you might understand why I would want to make the distinction. :)

[boyando]

<div class='quotemain'>

I don't like the idea of spiritually sharing my future husband.

If I died first and he ever got resealed.. or remarried at all, he is getting a spiritual smacking!

I will make sure he knows that to...!

I can understand eventual remarriage after sometime of grieving and adjusting to widow/erhood. But what if the widowed spouse made plans to remarry only 3 months after his/her first spouse's death, and then actually remarried 3 months later (6 months in total of spouse's death). What are your feelings about hasty 2nd marriages, Desire? I'm just curious about your opinion because of your above quote.

M.

I would say that the first marrage was a great sucsess and that the spouse really missed having some one to love. Having never been there, my comments are worth thinking about, and nothing more.

[Dr T]

Real question:

"For the FLDS women that share a husband and prayed and have a testimony that it is godly, and feel they are correct because it was from god, how do you (who despise polygamy) have such a problem with them?"

THank you,

Dr. T

[Fiannan]

I guess plural marriage in the eternities could be called "polygamy". However, you must admit that perfected adults each given equal consideration who have proved themselves in life making an informed decision with their Heavenly Father's blessing is very different from the version of "polygamy" that Warren Jeffs is advocating. Pologamy has become a conotation of sick men imposing control and removing the agency of children for their own personal agendas. The two are hardly the same and you might understand why I would want to make the distinction.

I am not so sure about this. You cannot honestly say that every polygamist is out to get a herd of women to control any more than you can say every Muslim would delight in slitting hte throat of every infidel (non-Muslim). Yes, there are your hyper-controlling Warren Jeffs in the world of polygamy but I can assure you there are many millions more monogamist males (and females for that matter) that also have the authoritarian mindset. I never got the idea that Tom Green was some sort of control freak (I saw him featured in several documentaries before some fascists in Utah decided to show the world, prior to the Olympics, that polygamy was a thing of the past and should not be associated with Utah -- which totally blew up in their faces -- and Green did seem a devout and caring husband and father).

It's tempting to say that in the next life things will be easier and problems with complex family situations won't exist. Yeah, so why not avoid marriage in this life and let God be the great cosmic matchmaker in the next life? Why do missionary work here when maybe there will be an easier time in Heaven? That's just not what we should be doing. In this life we are not perfect -- we make mistakes all the time -- but God expects us to use this life as a teaching and leearning experience. THe fundamentalists believe that the time to enter into family relationships is in this life and so I won't fault them for that. So yes, we can be prejudice towards polygamists and believe they are all mind controlling cultists but that is no more fair than when Swedes believe ALL believers in God are just ignorant victims of mind control.

[cutelilchikin]

Thanks ALmom. You freakin rock! I think what she's trying to say is that, we're not dead yet. You're father isnt' married to three women at the same time HERE on earth. And there's no guarantee that he will be after he's dead. In each of the marriages your dad had, they were done by two consenting adults for different purposes than the FLDS have when they get married. We're not talking about polygamists in the whole. In this whole discussion, we've been talking about Warren Jeffs and the FLDS church. On one of the many specials I happened to see on TV, there are actually some pluaral marriages where everyone involved in the marriage, had consented to the marriage. The women worked and actually had rights. The husband treated his wives with respect and like they were actually human and had intelligence of their own. The wives were all very happy. But the problem with the FLDS is that the women have been brainwashed into thinking the way they live is how it's supposed to be. It's like the children you hear about who are raised in a family where abuse is a constant thing. They grow up thinking that is how all family's are because they don't KNOW any better. And a lot of the women who want to get out, don't know how they'd survive. They take abuse everyday from the men in their lives. Not only their husband, but their church leaders and the leaders of their community (which happen to be the same people). They feel like if they left, they wouldn't know how to take care of themselves because the men tell them daily that they aren't intelligent and without the husband, they would be nothing. If that's not considered abuse, I don't know what is. These kids who ran away that I was talking about aren't anti's. For the first years of their lives, they had no choice. That's like telling me a kid who runs away from parents who abuses them is just anti-abuse. Maybe the reason the ex-FLDS hate the polygamist lifestyle is for a reason. Could you live your life like that? Knowing that they are hiding the abuse of women and children? Consider the victims in this situation. . . I lived in the same place as Strawberry Fields. I saw how the women and children acted. They would walk around with their heads down like they don't matter. The men know what's going on and they help it continue. Everyone has a bad view of Polygamist because most of the ones they show on tv are the ones who are perverse and break the law. People believe what they see. The Polygamists who live a normal life don't make a good story. Mormon's don't want to be associated with the bad name that polygamy has gotten in the last couple years because they don't like the disgusting behavior of the "newsworthy" polygamists.

To Jason:

I didn't base my opinion that they hate the Mormons on just one comment on a tv program. I've based it on many conversations I've had with ex-FLDS and on the many people I've seen on the tv specials. And by the way, you sound just like all those anti-Mormon materials you mentioned. I admit I don't know everything about the church history, especially polygamy, but I do know for a fact that the reason the Mormons had more than one wife is far different than the FLDS. If their group actually did what they said they were there to do, then there probably wouldn't be as many arguments against them. They are frauds. The original teachings of the church did not include forcing children to marry older men and ignoring their cries for help. The Mormon church is far from perfect. But that can be said about any church. The reason no church is perfect is because there are PEOPLE involved. There was only one person in the history of the entire earth that was perfect and even if we all tried to be like Jesus, there's no way we could all be perfect. It's NOT possible. The biggest problem with the FLDS is that when they say they are trying to go back to the beliefs of Joseph Smith, it sounds good, but people got in the way. People like Warren Jeffs and Tom Green. Their version of what Joseph Smith taught and what he really taught is quite warped. You only need to hear them preach to know that.

[Jason]

To Jason:

I didn't base my opinion that they hate the Mormons on just one comment on a tv program. I've based it on many conversations I've had with ex-FLDS and on the many people I've seen on the tv specials.

Well gee whiz chikin....you must know everything then.

And by the way, you sound just like all those anti-Mormon materials you mentioned.

Just the true parts.

I admit I don't know everything about the church history, especially polygamy, but I do know for a fact that the reason the Mormons had more than one wife is far different than the FLDS.

Then you don't know the facts dear. Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants is the reason. Now the FLDS have gone so far as to arrange the marriages, which is neither forbidden nor approved of by the D&C, but that's all that's happened. These arranged marriages are bad as far as our culture is concerned, but cultures all around the world for millenia approved of arranged marriages and nobody's pointing fingers at them.

[Gwen]

Fiannan,

I am not at all speaking of ALL polygamists are bad and I certainly don't think the leaders of the early church had the mindset of Warren Jeffs. I'm refering to Warren Jeffs and what he is doing and the name he is giving it. the question that has been asked by non LDS is that why are LDS so strongly trying to make a seperation when the similarities seem so obvious according to history. My point is that what it has become is so disgusting that there is a BIG difference and who wouldn't want to be seperated from such. Unfortunatly we live in a world where people make assumptions and generalizations regularly. To have someone so disgusting called mormon when i myself get called mormon, well it makes my skin crawl. Birds of a feather. ...And as for monogomist who have the same mindset, well it is still wrong and hidious way to live a relationship and if i understand things correctly such a relationship will not have earned the blessing of eternal marriage in the next life. sealing certificate or not. And for waiting for the next life to get married to avoid the trials here. If you like being alone and can explain it to your God then fine by me. I must say though i have learned more from my trials then from having it easy. i have also come to understand my Heavenly Father more everyday as a mother. i've about decide i could never have understood how repentance and unconditional love worked without my husband and children teaching me. Oh the things we would miss if all we wanted was the easy road.....

Dr T,

Sometimes it's not necessiarly about despising polygamy, so much as how it's practiced. isn't there some saying along the lines of it's not what you do, but how and when. polygamy in and of itself isn't bad, Warren Jeffs is. we must be careful who we align ourselves with.

chiKin,

Thank you. i very much agree with your thoughts.

[Fiannan]

I understand what you are getting at Almom. And I also hate Warren Jeffs being associated with Mormons in general. I think the thing that makes me maddest about his sect is that since Mr. Jeffs took over it's as if his church makes the quantity of wives all important in one's salvation. Most polygamists seem to be satisfied with two or three wives (or even just one -- many Mormon polygamist sects don't actually require polygamy but allow it). Mr Jeffs has been reported to have 60 wives (now while many of these wives are his late father's wives and may be a tad bit older than him, if we assume even half are young then that's 30!). For the guys at the top to have so many wives they have to find a way to get rid of the competition (teenage males). So they have become so strict that even wearing a short sleave shirt is enough to get banished.

So from what I understand, a woman might have 5 girls and 4 boys but may see two or three boys kicked out -- and banashment means being thown out of town literally. That's just not right and for that alone Mr. Jeffs deserves eternal marriage with Hillary Clinton, Janet Reno, Madeline Allbright and 68 other "hotties".

[Dr T]

Thank you ALmom. They took him as one that followed a prophet of old though. That's is the issue I'm trying to flesh out with my question.

[Jason]

... i have also come to understand my Heavenly Father more everyday as a mother.

So do you see your heavenly mother as a father?

[Gwen]

Jason,

that is not it at all. i mean as a parent i have come to understand my heavenly father more. sometimes when i mess up i think how could my heavenly father ever forgive this one. but when my children mess up i find it very easy to forgive and then help them find the right path. this too is what our heavenly father does, he accepts our short commings and if we will, helps us find a better path. Thank you for pointing out my unclear statment and giving me a chance to pick my words more carefully. let me know if i still didn't succeed.

Dr T,

if there are those who have had a chance to here jeffs teachings as well as others, and are adults being capable of making a sound decision and still beleive that he should be followed that is their right. and though my heart would break for them i can not take that agency away. however, this man is not doing that. if he were i don't think anyone would care what he or his wives do. example, we are all taught certian standards growing up. and as youg children think our parents are always right and accept that as truth. as we grow we meet other people and learn to read and realize there is more out there. we must then make our own decision to continue in our parents teachings, or choose a different legacy for our lives. that is not what jeffs is doing. these children never hear anything else and then before they are old enought to think clearly for themselve are committed to these insestual relationships. where is their agency? i beleive that is a principle that even prophets of old supported. and had these children had a chance to think for and learn for themselves jeffs would have far fewer followers.

ALmom

[Dr T]

Thank you Almom,

So, because they were raised with a particular worldview, they do not know there are other views out there. You can't blame them for that but can be sad for them. Good insights.

Thank you again,

Dr. T