Do we change?

[JudoMinja]

There are conversations emerging which seem to be bringing a couple threads here onto the same topic. You can see what prompted this here and here, and get greater detail on the points I will briefly describe below:

On one side of the coin is the notion that we are here to discover and define the character we already possess- we do not really change; we just come to know ourselves better.

And on the other side is the notion that we are here to develop and grow our character- that our decisions and actions here actually shape who we become; we are changed into new beings.

I have found this intriguing, but also difficult to chime in with my own contributions as there are portions of both sides that I agree and disagree with. For one, I feel strongly that anything we do is rather pointless if we are not progressing toward something NEW. In the "unchanging" explanation it was presented that the veil is there so that we will forget all the progress we made in the premortal life, so that we are essentially "relearning" something we've already learned but in harder more trying conditions. This implies that we really learn little in this life- that its not really about growing but just testing us to see if we will make the same decisions without the foreknowledge and context to guide us.

To me, this eliminates the purpose and importance of this life. If we are taking a step down only to (if we choose correctly) return to the same thing we had before, then why even bother taking the step down? There must be something more that we gain from this experience- something that adds to our character, and therefore changes it. I do not think that mortality was really a step "down" at all, but rather a step forward. Though we are Fallen, it is only because we have not yet the strength and ability to master the desires of our fleshly form. I don't think our spirits, in the premortal world, were fully mature spirits but rather adolescents, and this life is akin to going through "puberty", with all its angst and trials and yes changes.

However, sticking with the puberty example, an adolescent does not change into something completely different. Puberty is a time of self-discovery, of becoming something more and new, but also simply developing the ability to utilize already present traits. There is a part of us that never changes. A strength, desire, and fortitude that simply IS and will always be. It is what makes us unique, yet also connects us to others. Identifying and bringing out who we already ARE, deep inside, guides us toward the path that will bring us the most happiness.

I believe that our premortal existence was like our childhood, and our growth there was limited in ways that a child's growth is limited. Mortality is like a combination of puberty and young adulthood- when we go through the necessary changes and discoveries that can only happen when we are making our own decisions, testing our own capacities, and getting out from under the roof of our "parents". It is the most critical time of ones life, as anyone who has passed into adulthood can tell you that the decisions they made in these most critical years had the greatest influence in shaping their future. The decisions we make now are what will determine what limitations we have in the eternities (if any).

As adults (after this life), we will certainly all continue to progress and experience infinite increase, but there will also be infinite differences in our increase- because this life is the center, the critical focus point. Who we are now will determine who/what we will be in eternity, and we cannot change that anymore than we can change our current circumstances by going back and redoing our teenage years.

So do we change? My answer would be both yes and no. This life is a time to discover the character that is already present within us, but to use that character to make decisions that will change the circumstances of our future. This is a time of becoming, but only of becoming more of what we already are- of developing the characteristics and experience that will shape our adulthood.

[Traveler]

There are conversations emerging which seem to be bringing a couple threads here onto the same topic. You can see what prompted this here and here, and get greater detail on the points I will briefly describe below:

On one side of the coin is the notion that we are here to discover and define the character we already possess- we do not really change; we just come to know ourselves better.

And on the other side is the notion that we are here to develop and grow our character- that our decisions and actions here actually shape who we become; we are changed into new beings.

I have found this intriguing, but also difficult to chime in with my own contributions as there are portions of both sides that I agree and disagree with. For one, I feel strongly that anything we do is rather pointless if we are not progressing toward something NEW. In the "unchanging" explanation it was presented that the veil is there so that we will forget all the progress we made in the premortal life, so that we are essentially "relearning" something we've already learned but in harder more trying conditions. This implies that we really learn little in this life- that its not really about growing but just testing us to see if we will make the same decisions without the foreknowledge and context to guide us.

To me, this eliminates the purpose and importance of this life. If we are taking a step down only to (if we choose correctly) return to the same thing we had before, then why even bother taking the step down? There must be something more that we gain from this experience- something that adds to our character, and therefore changes it. I do not think that mortality was really a step "down" at all, but rather a step forward. Though we are Fallen, it is only because we have not yet the strength and ability to master the desires of our fleshly form. I don't think our spirits, in the premortal world, were fully mature spirits but rather adolescents, and this life is akin to going through "puberty", with all its angst and trials and yes changes.

However, sticking with the puberty example, an adolescent does not change into something completely different. Puberty is a time of self-discovery, of becoming something more and new, but also simply developing the ability to utilize already present traits. There is a part of us that never changes. A strength, desire, and fortitude that simply IS and will always be. It is what makes us unique, yet also connects us to others. Identifying and bringing out who we already ARE, deep inside, guides us toward the path that will bring us the most happiness.

I believe that our premortal existence was like our childhood, and our growth there was limited in ways that a child's growth is limited. Mortality is like a combination of puberty and young adulthood- when we go through the necessary changes and discoveries that can only happen when we are making our own decisions, testing our own capacities, and getting out from under the roof of our "parents". It is the most critical time of ones life, as anyone who has passed into adulthood can tell you that the decisions they made in these most critical years had the greatest influence in shaping their future. The decisions we make now are what will determine what limitations we have in the eternities (if any).

As adults (after this life), we will certainly all continue to progress and experience infinite increase, but there will also be infinite differences in our increase- because this life is the center, the critical focus point. Who we are now will determine who/what we will be in eternity, and we cannot change that anymore than we can change our current circumstances by going back and redoing our teenage years.

So do we change? My answer would be both yes and no. This life is a time to discover the character that is already present within us, but to use that character to make decisions that will change the circumstances of our future. This is a time of becoming, but only of becoming more of what we already are- of developing the characteristics and experience that will shape our adulthood.

What a fun thread and concept.

There is an old saying, "The more things change the more they remain the same." It is also interesting to me that we must change in order to worship an unchanging G-d????

One of my favorite scriptures is Ecc 1:9. In essence this is that idea that as things change; it is not really a change because change is the actual constant - it is the lack of changing that introduces something new that is a change.

Have I confused anyone yet - if not that would sertainly be a change

The Traveler

[RescueMom]

We don't change per say, but we do change our thought patterns and the way we spiritually deal with things.

There are lots that we could not learn in the pre-existence. We did not know pain, or suffering, thus we did not know joy. We didn't know what it was like the have the sun warm our face or the taste of chocolate. We didn't know what it was like to feel the consequences of our choices, because our choices were limited...we did not know the feeling of temptation or forgiveness. It's a double edged sword coming here. We all have the potential to make it back, but before this life we didn't have the knowledge of the full impact of making it back.

Yes it is like we have gone from inside a safe nursery school room into the vast outdoors. We could see the rain, and notice the wind and sun, but we could never really appreciate them until we are out in them.

Ships are real pretty in the harbor, but that is not where they are meant to stay. Our Heavenly Father gave us these wonderful ships, we can follow the set course that will get us safely back in the harbor or we can plot our own. Either way we will face storms and trials, but if we follow the set course it will be easier and we won't wreck ourselves on the jagged rocks of sin. It's all in preparation for us to be able to build our own harbors one day, and perhaps our own ships. But if all we did was sit in the harbor, we'd not really learn anything.

Change is constant. Our core personalities are there, we grow and change from that point. We need it to grow. And if we are not growing we are damned. Lucifer and his host will not change from what they were in the pre-existence. He and his hosts do not, and will never know, how wonderful the sun feels.

[Windseeker]

I like what C.S. Lewis has to say on this.

“Imagine yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps, you can understand what He is doing. He is getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on: you knew those jobs needed doing and so you are not surprised. But presently he starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make sense. What on earth is He up to? The explanation is that He is building quite a different house from the one you thought of—throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there, running up towers, making courtyards. You thought you were going to be made into a decent little cottage: but He is building a palace” (C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, New York: MacMillan Co., 1960, p. 160).

He goes on to say the following -

The more we get what we now call "ourselves" out of the

way and let Him take us over, the more truly ourselves we become.

At the beginning I said there were Personalities in God. I will go further now. There are no real

personalities anywhere else.

Until you have given up your self to Him you will not have a real self. Sameness is to be found most

among the most "natural" men, not among those who surrender to Christ. How monotonously alike all

the great tyrants and conquerors have been: how gloriously different are the saints.

But there must be a real giving up of the self. You must throw it away "blindly" so to speak. Christ

will indeed give you a real personality: but you must not go to Him for the sake of that. As long asyour own personality is what you are bothering about you are not going to Him at all.

The very first step is to try to forget about the self altogether. Your real, new self (which is Christ's

and also yours, and yours just because it is His) will not come as long as you are looking for it. It will

come when you are looking for Him.

...

Give up your self, and you will find your real self. Lose your life and you will save it. Submit to

death, death of your ambitions and favourite wishes every day and death of your whole body in the

end: submit with every fibre of your being, and you will find eternal life. Keep back nothing

Edited November 17, 2011 by Windseeker

[sister_in_faith]

I'm not sure if this premise is true or not, but I kind of always thought that the spirits that were allowed to come to earth were basically good spirits. That HF wouldn't allow an 'evil' spirit to come take a body. But we see many instances of truly evil people on this earth, who have been tempted by Satan and have allowed themselves to do evil things (like Hitler, and people who rape and kill children). If they started off good (no original sin), and then became evil then I would guess that this means that a change took place, and so that would mean that we DO change here in this life.

[Seminarysnoozer]

So do we change? My answer would be both yes and no. This life is a time to discover the character that is already present within us, but to use that character to make decisions that will change the circumstances of our future. This is a time of becoming, but only of becoming more of what we already are- of developing the characteristics and experience that will shape our adulthood.

Thanks for the thoughts, they are good ones!

I agree with your summary. I think this life is a time for refinement and discovery about who we really are and why we do the things we do. It is to develop an appreciation for our Father in Heaven and His way so we can receive the things He wants to give us.

As an example, I have a teenage daughter who is spoiled (hope she doesn't read this). She has difficulty in appreciating the value of gifts we give as she has not had to earn money for herself yet. The other day I bought her an IPAD cover for $99.00 and there was no thank you, thanks mom or nothing. It was as if she just expected me to buy it for her, that it was my duty as a good mom. To curb this self centered, ungrateful direction we are trying to work on ways for her to develop an appreciation of the value of these things she has by having her earn her own money and take care of what she has.

Similarly, do we really have full capacity to love someone else unless we are actively involved in their advancement and achievements. This life affords us the opportunity to learn the value of such things, to learn what it means to love thy neighbor as thy self. To know what it means to have family. God wants to give us everything but only when we show that we are capable of handling what is given. When we show we can handle small stewardship we can be given greater stewardship.

So, our appreciation of the nature of God can dramatically change in this life. And then our capacity for happiness enlarges. I suppose it all depends on whether one calls growth and enlargement change. Or does "change" have to mean a change in direction?

[Justice]

I love the C.S. Lewis quotes.

That the tyrants of the world are monotonously the same, and the saints are all beautiful and different rings true with me.

I have seen people change. The Gospel of Jesus Christ can and does change people. I'm not talking about just what they do, but what they desire, and even who they are.

Christ said He didn't come for the whole, but for the sinners. He came to change the hearts of men.

He has changed me.

Without Christ and His Church I have no idea what kind of person I would be, but I know it wouldn't be anywhere near as good without Him.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think that the "change" that occurs during this life is almost a different topic than a change in our spiritual self from before this life to after this life. For one, I don't think any of us can really remember all that we knew and learned before this life, unless some of you are walking around without a veil. As we lift the veil of a fallen existence from our eyes then we see a bit of what our spiritual self is like. I wouldn't call that process a "change" in who we are, just a revelation of who we are. I am not sure how one in this life could measure a change in one's spirit being (not change in spirituality, that is something else) if one doesn't really have a measure of how they were before.

If we are just measuring the change from fallen to partially fallen, then there is a change within those two points. Most of the quotes above are referring to that observable change in spirituality, which is how much we pay attention to spiritual influences over carnal ones. That doesn't necessarily mean there was a change in the nature of the spiritual influences themselves, just how much we listen to them. I am not sure how one would separate those two, the relative attention paid to spiritual influences over carnal versus an actual change in the influences given by one's spirit.

Most of the things in life that we call "change" start out with making correct decisions in the first place. As we pay attention to our spiritual influences we can detect them more readily with time and they seem to become different in that sense but they are just stronger. How do you make a "change" spiritually? By first choosing the right, by praying, going to church, reading the scriptures, avoiding evil influences. So what came first, the chicken or the egg, the choosing of the right or the perceived "change" that comes with choosing the right?

[Justice]

Maybe we should have a discussion about what it means to have a "change of heart?"

[Windseeker]

I think the change comes from doing good. The Lord asked "How long shall rolling waters remain inpure?" I think it's the action. And like Victor Hugo said "The crossed arms work, the clasped hands act. The eyes upturned to Heaven are an act of creation." When we look to heaven I believe it is an act of creation, our creation.

[james12]

Almost all would say we change while in this life. The confusion comes when we try and determine the nature of the change and their effects. For some the question boils down to an issue of the body versus the spirit. The real difference comes about when we begin trying to understand who we were before this life and who we will be after. Let me try and present the questions as I see them:

1. Does our spirit change?

We spent an almost infinite amount of time in our first estate perfecting our spirits. We reached a high level of progression. If this be the case why would we lose it all? Is not our spirit fixed such that nothing can change who we "are"?

2. Are we perfect in character after the resurrection?

This question is related to the first. In essence this life is simply a test. The end of that test occurs at the resurrection. Based on our performance during the test we will be rewarded accordingly. However, the resurrection is the end. We are received into a glory there to be happy. There we rest from our labors. Our progression during our first estate determined our character not the second estate. After the resurrection we simply gain a perfect glorified body but our character/attributes did not change.

I'm out of time. I'll take a stab at them latter.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Maybe we should have a discussion about what it means to have a "change of heart?"

Yes, good place to start. I think "change of heart" means a person who is attracted to the things of this world more so than spiritual influences starts to overcome that influence and tilt the scales in the direction of spiritual influences. Does that mean the spiritual influences have changed? I don't think so. They have just become more prominent in that person's life, the still small voice becomes louder and more recognizable. The spirits message is still the same as it was when the person wasn't listening to it as much. Did the person's spirit change? Not really, only in the respect that they have learned a new skill which is to pay attention to their spiritual influences more. The degree to which that person listens to spiritual influences is based on how valiant they are to obeying the word of God and likely many other spiritual traits that were matured before we came here, as well as the variable circumstances a person is placed in temporarily in this life. Those variable circumstances of this world that often people, in my opinion, misinterpret as being themselves which is not their true spiritual self.

[Traveler]

I am thinking that the subtle concept of my post was lost. Okay - I will try to be more blunt. The ancient Egyptian concept of eternal life is the paradox of finding constant through change. To better understand this concept we need to understand the simple concept of cycles. It is interesting to me how the simple most often used symbol to explain this paradox is the circle.

Do season change? I would think so; winter is quite different than summer and fall seems to be ending life as summer seems to be beginning life. The point is that as seasons change we find ourselves in a constant cycle that in essence does not change.

The concept and doctrine of eternal cycles of repeating change is very prevalent throughout the scriptures. The ancient Egyptians religiously believed that it is in these forever changing and repeating cycles that live endures and becomes eternal.

Thus death does not become an end but a gateway to rebirth. With this concept of "eternal" or everlasting life takes on a much more delightful possibility when contemplating a forever existence.

One of the great secrets of eternity becomes preparing for the next change during the present course. So winter is the time to prepare for spring, spring for summer, summer for fall, fall for winter and beginning anew the cycle. I find it most interesting that in LDS theology we are taught that this life is the time to prepare ourselves for the next life. That is the reason that we repent - so we can take advantage of “things” in the next part of our cycle of eternal life.

So take a hint from the Traveler - learn to enjoy this part of the cycle we are in - in fact make it your favorite part of your eternal cycle - at least for now. If you think that your real happiness or true happiness will magically appear in the next part of the cycle - there is a good chance you will end up quite miserable. Note that in scripture Satan desires that all will be miserable like himself. Would you not think that someone that is miserable would change? Not at all if they think their reward to be in heaven if they can just last through the misery of now.

The Traveler

[JudoMinja]

We spent an almost infinite amount of time in our first estate perfecting our spirits. We reached a high level of progression. If this be the case why would we lose it all? Is not our spirit fixed such that nothing can change who we "are"?...

Our progression during our first estate determined our character not the second estate. After the resurrection we simply gain a perfect glorified body but our character/attributes did not change.

Did the person's spirit change? Not really, only in the respect that they have learned a new skill which is to pay attention to their spiritual influences more. The degree to which that person listens to spiritual influences is based on how valiant they are to obeying the word of God and likely many other spiritual traits that were matured before we came here, as well as the variable circumstances a person is placed in temporarily in this life. Those variable circumstances of this world that often people, in my opinion, misinterpret as being themselves which is not their true spiritual self.

These two points seem to bring out an impression of the premortal existence that I personally don't quite agree with. Though our time in the pre-existance was infinite, and we were indeed learning and progressing, I do not think that we were fully "mature" or that anything we learned was lost by coming to this life. The veil is simply a forgetting- like amnesia. We have not lost anything we've learned to do or be, only the knowledge of how we got that knowledge, where we were when we learned it, who we were with, etc. I think that our spirits were in a stage of adolescence when we came here, and that our experiences here are what bring about the completion of our maturation.

Yes, good place to start. I think "change of heart" means a person who is attracted to the things of this world more so than spiritual influences starts to overcome that influence and tilt the scales in the direction of spiritual influences. Does that mean the spiritual influences have changed? I don't think so. They have just become more prominent in that person's life, the still small voice becomes louder and more recognizable. The spirits message is still the same as it was when the person wasn't listening to it as much.

This reminds me of something I read in Putting on the Armor of God. It compared our souls to a blank slate, open to the influence and voices of other spirits- whether they be of God or of Satan. When we listen to what one or the other is telling us, it tips the scales in favor of that spirit and we are subjected to more of its whisperings. So, when we give in to the evil or carnal influences of Satan, he gains a greater hold over us and is able to speak more clearly to us. Likewise, when we listen to the still small voice of the Holy Ghost, he is able to communicate with us more clearly and exhert greater influence in our lives.

We cannot have more of both. Like a see-saw, we will inevitably lean one way or another. Like an adolescent our spirits are very susceptible to peer pressure and environmental influences. What we decide to listen to, and to do, will forever change the outcome of our future.

Do season change? I would think so; winter is quite different than summer and fall seems to be ending life as summer seems to be beginning life. The point is that as seasons change we find ourselves in a constant cycle that in essence does not change.

The concept and doctrine of eternal cycles of repeating change is very prevalent throughout the scriptures. The ancient Egyptians religiously believed that it is in these forever changing and repeating cycles that live endures and becomes eternal.

Thus death does not become an end but a gateway to rebirth. With this concept of "eternal" or everlasting life takes on a much more delightful possibility when contemplating a forever existence.

One of the great secrets of eternity becomes preparing for the next change during the present course. So winter is the time to prepare for spring, spring for summer, summer for fall, fall for winter and beginning anew the cycle. I find it most interesting that in LDS theology we are taught that this life is the time to prepare ourselves for the next life. That is the reason that we repent - so we can take advantage of “things” in the next part of our cycle of eternal life.

Traveler, thank you again! I was trying to think of a way to bring in the changes/balance of nature- that everything is always changing but is also always in constant balance or cycles- and you provided, I think, the perfect example here.

I think eternity works very much like the seasons, and we can even see what season we are in- The creation was spring. I'm not sure where spring ended and summer started... maybe the Fall, maybe the apostacy... maybe something else entirely, BUT we are clearly past summer and into fall. Because we are now in the time of harvest.

After the harvest comes winter, wherein no labor can be performed. Because all the fields are frozen, the plants at rest. Then comes the spring again...

I think this is why there is a strong belief in reincarnation in Hindu and other eastern or pagan religions. I think that there really is going to be a reincarnation of sorts, as we move into the next eternal round. This will be the perpetuation of the cycles of eternity.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think eternity works very much like the seasons, and we can even see what season we are in- The creation was spring. I'm not sure where spring ended and summer started... maybe the Fall, maybe the apostacy... maybe something else entirely, BUT we are clearly past summer and into fall. Because we are now in the time of harvest.

After the harvest comes winter, wherein no labor can be performed. Because all the fields are frozen, the plants at rest. Then comes the spring again...

I think this is why there is a strong belief in reincarnation in Hindu and other eastern or pagan religions. I think that there really is going to be a reincarnation of sorts, as we move into the next eternal round. This will be the perpetuation of the cycles of eternity.

I think those metaphors could also work in a vicarious setting. In other words, it may not be us personally redoing the cycles but as we sometimes do in this life, relive our experiences through our children. As offspring pass through the same steps we learn more about how we passed through those steps. It doesn't have to mean that we actually take those steps again. The power of a Celestial being, in my opinion, is to love and care so much about another that one can 100% empathize and "experience" their successes and progress. To me, that opens up an eternal pathway for progression and joy. It is not an individually traveled path, it is a shared, vicarious joy.

[Justice]

They have just become more prominent in that person's life, the still small voice becomes louder and more recognizable. The spirits message is still the same as it was when the person wasn't listening to it as much. Did the person's spirit change? Not really, only in the respect that they have learned a new skill which is to pay attention to their spiritual influences more.

This might be a simplified example, but I liken your words to the volume of the radio. The programming is the same no matter what volume it's on, but the louder it is the easier it is to hear. So, the volume changes, but that's all... no real change in content.

Let's continue with that analogy. Let's say the station you're on is hard rock. What I'm suggesting is it's also possible to change the channel and listen to easy listening or to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. You now have the ability to adjust the volume with new programming. This change of programming is called "born again" or "change of heart." There is no real change in just adjusting the volume.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, I'm just offering that there may be more to it than mere volume control.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Justice

[james12]

1. Does our spirit change?

We spent an almost infinite amount of time in our first estate perfecting our spirits. We reached a high level of progression. If this be the case why would we lose it all? Is not our spirit fixed such that nothing can change who we "are"?

I think I will first comment on the level of our progression and the maturity of our spirit. Joseph F. Smith said,

Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335).

About our progression we get this statement from Gospel Principles,

Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left Him for a time. He wanted us to develop the godlike qualities that He has. To do this, we needed to leave our premortal home to be tested and to gain experience. Our spirits needed to be clothed with physical bodies.

So during our pre-earth life we were raised to maturity and could only progress so far unless we left him and gained a body.

2. Are we perfect in character after the resurrection?

This question is related to the first. In essence this life is simply a test. The end of that test occurs at the resurrection. Based on our performance during the test we will be rewarded accordingly. However, the resurrection is the end. We are received into a glory there to be happy. There we rest from our labors. Our progression during our first estate determined our character not the second estate. After the resurrection we simply gain a perfect glorified body but our character/attributes did not change.

Is this life a test only or does our character change based on how we live here? Since entering this second estate our body and spirit determine who we are. I will quote again Elder Packer, "Your body really is the instrument of your mind and the foundation of your character. (Ye Are the Temple of God, GC Oct 2000) And Elder Bednar, "And in this dispensation the Lord revealed that “the spirit and the body are the soul of man” (D&C 88:15). A truth that really is and always will be is that the body and the spirit constitute our reality and identity." (Things as They Really Are, CES Fireside May 3, 2009, italics added) Now knowing who we are how does earth life affect us? From President David O. McKay,

“Day by day, hour by hour, man builds the character that will determine his place and standing among his associates throughout the ages. … More important than riches, more enduring than fame, more precious than happiness is the possession of a noble character. Truly it has been said that the grand aim of man’s creation is the development of a grand character, and grand character is by its very nature the product of a probationary discipline” (“Man’s Soul Is As Endless As Time,” Instructor, Jan. 1960, 1–2).

We build our character each day of this probationary life. President McKay says it is our grand aim. Yes we reached a high level of maturity during our first estate, but we reached a point where we could not progress much further without a body. Our body amplifies our spirit. It deepens emotions and allows us further progression. However, Satan has special control over our body and also uses this fact to tempt and to try us.

When we give into sin we also change our spirit. This can be seen in the spirit world. There we will only be spirits yet our decisions made during mortality will affect us there. Brigham Young said,

Suppose, then, that a man is evil in his heart—wholly given up to wickedness, and in that condition dies, his spirit will enter into the spirit world intent upon evil. On the other hand, if we are striving with all the powers and faculties God has given us to improve upon our talents, to prepare ourselves to dwell in eternal life, and the grave receives our bodies while we are thus engaged, with what disposition will our spirits enter their next state? They will be still striving to do the things of God, only in a much greater degree—learning, increasing, growing in grace and in the knowledge of the truth (DBY, 379).

Our spirit acquires the habits gained in mortality.

And now with regards to the resurrection. Does it magically change who we are? No! We must work to build our character which now includes our body and our spirit together. Justice has commented well on the issue. I will simply give one scripture,

And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature? O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful. Alma 41:12-13

This scripture plus others help us understand that only through repentance and hard work will we change who we are, both body and spirit.

[Justice]

Blah! I was one chapter off. That was the one I was looking for. Alma 42 continues and clarifies the point, but 41 introduces it. The word restoration as used there intrigues me.

Thanks for your summation. I agree.

I think the consequences of Adam and Eve's choice are much misunderstood largely because we have no baseline reference for what it means to be innocent. I maintain that we can study the condition and behaviors of small children and see what some of those might be. I think we can better understand what it might mean to try to make desicsions while innocent. The example I frequently give is like if a little 3 year old boy and girl take a bath together. They have no concept of reproduction, and it does not tempt them to any degree. Instead, they are more interested in the bubbles and toys. If you read the Garden of Eden story with this understanding, many things become clear. I think we were much like this in the pre-mortal life. Having gained the knowledge of good and evil and a physical body, we are now who we are, and that is different in nature, and we can never go back to "innocent." We must become as a little child, meaning we must return to innocent obedience and behaviors, but the knoweldge will always be with us. It is now a choice, and we have moral agency to make those choices.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Justice

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think I will first comment on the level of our progression and the maturity of our spirit. Joseph F. Smith said, About our progression we get this statement from Gospel Principles, So during our pre-earth life we were raised to maturity and could only progress so far unless we left him and gained a body.

Is this life a test only or does our character change based on how we live here? Since entering this second estate our body and spirit determine who we are. I will quote again Elder Packer, "Your body really is the instrument of your mind and the foundation of your character. (Ye Are the Temple of God, GC Oct 2000) And Elder Bednar, "And in this dispensation the Lord revealed that “the spirit and the body are the soul of man” (D&C 88:15). A truth that really is and always will be is that the body and the spirit constitute our reality and identity." (Things as They Really Are, CES Fireside May 3, 2009, italics added) Now knowing who we are how does earth life affect us? From President David O. McKay, We build our character each day of this probationary life. President McKay says it is our grand aim. Yes we reached a high level of maturity during our first estate, but we reached a point where we could not progress much further without a body. Our body amplifies our spirit. It deepens emotions and allows us further progression. However, Satan has special control over our body and also uses this fact to tempt and to try us.

When we give into sin we also change our spirit. This can be seen in the spirit world. There we will only be spirits yet our decisions made during mortality will affect us there. Brigham Young said, Our spirit acquires the habits gained in mortality.

And now with regards to the resurrection. Does it magically change who we are? No! We must work to build our character which now includes our body and our spirit together. Justice has commented well on the issue. I will simply give one scripture, This scripture plus others help us understand that only through repentance and hard work will we change who we are, both body and spirit.

I agree with everything you say here until the end parts. You gave a quote by Brigham Young that starts out with "Suppose a man is evil in his heart - ..." Just think about that for a second. If a man is evil in his heart, then that is what he will reveal about himself in this life when given opportunities in this life to choose between evil and good. He will reveal that about his character and it will be amplified. I will not "change" so much as it will reveal itself and be outwardly made obvious through one's choice.

If our character was to be the product of mortal traits added to our spirit after we left this world then please attempt to explain what will happen to those poor souls whose body that you think implants on to their spirits traits of obsessive compulsiveness, or generalized anxiety, or paranoid schizophrenia. Please explain how you think those outward personality traits associated with those conditions that originate in the wiring of the physical body, not from the spirit, the corrupted parts of the body are now part of that persons soul. I do not think there is truth to that.

We are given specific sets of circumstances which also include the traits if this temporary body to test aspects that needed to be tested based in who we were previously but are not a linear relationship to who we are. For example, suppose someone in the previous life was very very valiant and they were just sent here to provide a opportunity for family members to be tested in their patience and love. And so, that person was given a body that had intractable seizures, seizures that occurred once a week. With that they are treated with medications that alter their ability to focus and do things for themselves. The underlying disease starts to destroy the frontal lobes which makes them disinhibited at times and even outbursts of anger and foul language occur. You want to try to tell me that that person's outward traits in this life are a reflection of his spirit? I don't believe it.

Then you might say, well, some people have diseases that affect their personality. And I would respond to that by saying, name one person that doesn't have brain affecting personality changes in this life. Maybe Jesus had a body that let his spirit shine through 100%, but likely even then only after He matured in the eyes of God and man, otherwise he would have started his ministry as a baby. We all have personality affecting mortal corrupted bodies. Like David O. McKay said, people like to think that who they are is what their body is telling them to be. There is an intense discussion in this regard when we discuss homosexuality for example. Do you think Paul's "thorn in the flesh" will continue with his perfected, non-corrupted body?

The quote you gave their about our soul being the product of our probationary mortal body and spirit actions (paraphrasing) is to say that, this life is a test and what we do here gives God information about how we passed the test and what our eternal destiny holds but it is not a linearly related equation. God knows the equation based in many variables that we do not know. Often those afflicted with many challenges are the ones with stronger souls. So the product of that information that we do not know, not something that you can plug into an equation to determine based on a persons mortal probation traits, will determine what God gives us in terms of our eternal destiny.

I wouldn't misinterpret that as saying something like, if a guy was given a body that is 7 feet 2 inches tall in this life and he made a career out of playing basketball in this life for obvious reasons that his spirit being had some predisposition to being tall and playing basketball. For all we know, maybe it was the opposite, maybe his spirit was short and didn't care for physical activity and so God gave him those traits in this life to challenge something that would really challenge him. And so, even if everyone knows that person as a professional basketball player in this life that isn't really who the person is. Likewise, God may give one individual great intelligence in this life as a challenge and a opportunity to serve, in disproportion to anything he had in the pre-existence compared to others. Now, that person is challenged with how they deal with that disproportionate intelligence. Do they serve others with it or are they prideful? That doesn't meant the person will have disproportionate intelligence in the next life like they did here. It is not a linear product. There are parts of the equation of that "product" that we don't have. .... that is my point. Our mortal traits are not a reflection of who we are or who we will be in the next life like a mirror image or a fraction of what we are but that information is used by God to determine the advancements we have made based on those tests.

Another metaphor to this would be to think about how a final exam given in a class may be different for each test taker. The actual questions may be different but the grade is universal. Two people can get A's in the class by answering different sets of questions. That doesn't mean for the rest of their life they will only be faced with the type of questions that were on the test. The test is to summarize generalized areas of knowledge in a few questions from which the person reveals their aptitude with the whole knowledge of the subject, even though they weren't tested about everything in the text book. To say the person is only showing aptitude with the specific questions asked is wrong.

[Martain]

I believe that our premortal existence was like our childhood, and our growth there was limited in ways that a child's growth is limited.

What of Michael the Archangle who came to earth as Adam the father of mankind?

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Are we to say that a child lead heaven's army against Lucifer? That he was not a mature adult?

What of our Savior? He who was the God of the Israelites, who showed himself to Moses and the brother of Jared, who spoke with Enoch as a man speaks with a man.

Was he a child? Was he immature?

Was he not also like us one of our heavenly father's spirit children?

While yet a spirit, Jesus progressed in the pre-mortal world and eventually received the divine investeture of authority from the father to act in his name. While yet in the spirit he was Jehova, God of the Old Testement.

I do not think we were children in the pre-mortal world or that we were limited in our groth and the perfection of divine characteristics and qualities.

There are lots that we could not learn in the pre-existence. We did not know pain, or suffering, thus we did not know joy. We didn't know what it was like the have the sun warm our face or the taste of chocolate. We didn't know what it was like to feel the consequences of our choices, because our choices were limited...we did not know the feeling of temptation or forgiveness.

We did not know pain or sorrow?

D&C 76:26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning

We did not know joy?

10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Are we to say that the Angels who sang at his birth and who bore these tidings of great joy knew nothing of what they spoke? That all our singing was joyless?

We did not know temptation?

Are we to say that in the great war in heaven over the souls of God's children, Lucifer did not tempt others? That you and I were not tempted by those who had joined him?

President Joseph Fielding Smith taught: “In the former [premortal] life we were spirits. In order that we should advance and eventually gain the goal of perfection, it was made known that we would receive tabernacles of flesh and bones and have to pass through mortality where we would be tried and proved to see if we, by trial, would prepare ourselves for exaltation.” He further stated that when our Heavenly Father presented His plan to His children in a council in heaven, “the thought of passing through mortality and partaking of all the vicissitudes [hardships] of earth life in which they would gain experiences through suffering, pain, sorrow, temptation and affliction, as well as the pleasures of life in this mundane existence, and then, if faithful, passing on through the resurrection to eternal life in the kingdom of God, to be like him, filled them with the spirit of rejoicing, and they ‘shouted for joy’ [ Job 38:1–7 ]” ( Doctrines of Salvation, 1:57–58) (Pearl of Great Price Institute Manual, Moses 4:1).

We knew joy and we knew sorrow. We knew temptation though I expect nothing like what we've faced here. There were at least some there who were mature adult spirits. Why not you and I as well?

We came here to get a body for without it we could not progress. Without a body we could not have children and procreate. We came here to be tested to see what we would do with these new powers. We came here to prove ourselves. To gain experience.

[james12]

I agree with everything you say here until the end parts. You gave a quote by Brigham Young that starts out with "Suppose a man is evil in his heart - ..." Just think about that for a second. If a man is evil in his heart, then that is what he will reveal about himself in this life when given opportunities in this life to choose between evil and good. He will reveal that about his character and it will be amplified. I will not "change" so much as it will reveal itself and be outwardly made obvious through one's choice.

I believe this change is more profound then you give it credit. It is not a returning but a complete transformation a revolution of the inner man as President Benson, President Kimball and President McKay pointed to. Here is the quote from Born of God - Liahona Oct. 1989 - liahona:

Our Lord told Nicodemus that “except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3). Of these words President Kimball said, “This is the simple total answer to the weightiest of all questions. … To gain eternal life there must be rebirth, a transformation” (Conference Report, April 1958, p. 14).

President McKay said that Christ called for “an entire revolution” of Nicodemus’s “inner man.” His manner of thinking, feeling, and acting with reference to spiritual things would have to undergo a fundamental and permanent change” (Conference Report, April, 1960, p. 26).

If our character was to be the product of mortal traits added to our spirit after we left this world then please attempt to explain what will happen to those poor souls whose body that you think implants on to their spirits traits of obsessive compulsiveness, or generalized anxiety, or paranoid schizophrenia. Please explain how you think those outward personality traits associated with those conditions that originate in the wiring of the physical body, not from the spirit, the corrupted parts of the body are now part of that persons soul. I do not think there is truth to that. ....You want to try to tell me that that person's outward traits in this life are a reflection of his spirit? I don't believe it.....We all have personality affecting mortal corrupted bodies. Like David O. McKay said, people like to think that who they are is what their body is telling them to be. There is an intense discussion in this regard when we discuss homosexuality for example. Do you think Paul's "thorn in the flesh" will continue with his perfected, non-corrupted body?

As we have discussed before, we live in a fallen world. Because of this we have a corrupted body. All deal with physical or mental problems of one sort or another. I agree with you in this respect, there is not a one to one relationship between our physical fallen self and our perfected body. However, this does not mean our spirit cannot change. Joseph Smith stated this plainly,

all the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 354).

Every last spirit sent to this earth may grow in some way. It may seem small to us but who knows what challenges some spirits have to face. A corrupt body does not equate to no spiritual growth.

The quote you gave their about our soul being the product of our probationary mortal body and spirit actions (paraphrasing) is to say that, this life is a test and what we do here gives God information about how we passed the test and what our eternal destiny holds but it is not a linearly related equation.

I believe the quote you are referring to says this, “Day by day, hour by hour, man builds the character that will determine his place and standing among his associates throughout the ages." Please note the words.

First, "day by day, hour by hour..." Each day, each hour is another chance to progress and to improve our spirit and body.

Second, "man builds [his] character..." He does not simply reveal, he does not only uncover who he was as a spirit. Instead he builds a character! He constructs and forms who he is and who he will become.

Third, this character will, "determine his place and standing among his associates throughout the ages." The character we develop here extends beyond this earth life even throughout the ages. Character growth here and now will help determine an eternal destiny. Indeed Pres. McKay says it is the grand aim of our creation!

I wouldn't misinterpret that as saying something like, if a guy was given a body that is 7 feet 2 inches tall in this life and he made a career out of playing basketball in this life for obvious reasons that his spirit being had some predisposition to being tall and playing basketball. For all we know, maybe it was the opposite, maybe his spirit was short and didn't care for physical activity and so God gave him those traits in this life to challenge something that would really challenge him. ....Our mortal traits are not a reflection of who we are or who we will be in the next life like a mirror image or a fraction of what we are but that information is used by God to determine the advancements we have made based on those tests.

I would be careful about discussing the spirit as opposite the body. Yes the body is corrupted but it is not opposite. From Gospel Principles chapter 45, “Spirit beings have the same bodily form as mortals except that the spirit body is in perfect form (see Ether 3:16). Spirits carry with them from earth their attitudes of devotion or antagonism toward things of righteousness (see Alma 34:34). They have the same appetites and desires that they had when they lived on earth."

Edited November 20, 2011 by james12

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe this change is more profound then you give it credit. It is not a returning but a complete transformation a revolution of the inner man as President Benson, President Kimball and President McKay pointed to. Here is the quote from Born of God - Liahona Oct. 1989 - liahona:

As we have discussed before, we live in a fallen world. Because of this we have a corrupted body. All deal with physical or mental problems of one sort or another. I agree with you in this respect, there is not a one to one relationship between our physical fallen self and our perfected body. However, this does not mean our spirit cannot change. Joseph Smith stated this plainly, Every last spirit sent to this earth may grow in some way. It may seem small to us but who knows what challenges some spirits have to face. A corrupt body does not equate to no spiritual growth.

I believe the quote you are referring to says this, “Day by day, hour by hour, man builds the character that will determine his place and standing among his associates throughout the ages." Please note the words.

First, "day by day, hour by hour..." Each day, each hour is another chance to progress and to improve our spirit and body.

Second, "man builds [his] character..." He does not simply reveal, he does not only uncover who he was as a spirit. Instead he builds a character! He constructs and forms who he is and who he will become.

Third, this character will, "determine his place and standing among his associates throughout the ages." The character we develop here extends beyond this earth life even throughout the ages. Character growth here and now will help determine an eternal destiny. Indeed Pres. McKay says it is the grand aim of our creation!

I would be careful about discussing the spirit as opposite the body. Yes the body is corrupted but it is not opposite. From Gospel Principles chapter 45, “Spirit beings have the same bodily form as mortals except that the spirit body is in perfect form (see Ether 3:16). Spirits carry with them from earth their attitudes of devotion or antagonism toward things of righteousness (see Alma 34:34). They have the same appetites and desires that they had when they lived on earth."

"Appetites and desires" refers to the direction one is heading. A change, as discussed in "Born of God" also refers to a change in direction. When a person follows worldly things, which of course can only be seen when a person is in the world and therefore not part of our character before this life, then they realize their error and start to follow God, that is the "change" spoken of in "Born of God". This is a "birth" after they have been "born" already. Thus the question posed in the scriptures - How can a person be born again, can a man enter back into the womb?

This is why I started out this conversation by saying it depends on where you are making the comparison for change. If one compares where they were before the world began to after their earthly experience, I believe the "character" of that individual has changed very little, yes they have grown, matured, refined etc. but the general direction the person was heading has not changed much as we were matured spirits before coming here. Now, if you just are talking about the change one experiences from what happens in this life only, i.e. - the starting point for comparison is after one's mortal birth, and comparing that to the potential changes one can experience from that starting point to the end of life through the gospel of Christ - of course their are possible changes from that point to the end. That is what the gospel is for to make those changes. The rate of change is what God is looking at. But the potential for change was created first by putting us into a fallen state. ... If we first go down then we can go up. But, we started in the up position already. To move forward we had to go down first then onward. It all depends on from what point to what point you are comparing to determine if their is change.

I am talking about from before this life to after and you are mostly making reference to the change that occurs within this life, a starting point after mortal birth to a change before mortal death.

[JudoMinja]

What of Michael the Archangle who came to earth as Adam the father of mankind?

Are we to say that a child lead heaven's army against Lucifer? That he was not a mature adult?

What of our Savior? He who was the God of the Israelites, who showed himself to Moses and the brother of Jared, who spoke with Enoch as a man speaks with a man.

Was he a child? Was he immature?

Was he not also like us one of our heavenly father's spirit children?

While yet a spirit, Jesus progressed in the pre-mortal world and eventually received the divine investeture of authority from the father to act in his name. While yet in the spirit he was Jehova, God of the Old Testement.

I do not think we were children in the pre-mortal world or that we were limited in our groth and the perfection of divine characteristics and qualities.

Joseph Smith was a child when he went to the Grove.

Mormon was a child when he was a general of the Nephite army.

Christ was a child when he taught in the temple.

Daniel was a child when made counselor to the king.

David was a child when he slew Goliath.

Samuel was a child when visited by an angel.

I do not think it is too erroneous to believe that God would place a high level of responsibility on "children". Also, we must remember that not all children "mature" at the same rate- that many children act very responsibly and capably, almost as tough they were already adults. Someone can psychologically and physically be an adolescent and still be very mature and capable. But even so, they are not yet "fully" developed and cannot properly reach that development without worldly experience and responsibility. And an adolescent is a child on the "cusp" of adulthood- ready and untried, still a child but needing experience to progress further into adulthood. Why is it hard to believe our spirits were in the same state?

Of course, this is just my personal belief and not doctinal, but it makes sense to me. And there are many scriptures to back up the idea that God will place huge responsibilities on "young" shoulders.

Alma 37:6-7

Now ye may suppose that this is foolishness in me; but behold I say unto you, that by small and simple things are great things brought to pass; and small means in many instances doth confound the wise.

And the Lord God doth work by means to bring about his great and eternal purposes; and by very small means the Lord doth confound the wise and bringeth about the salvation of many souls.

Psalms 8:2

Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

Jeremiah 1:4-8

Then the word of the Lord came unto me [Jeremiah], saying,

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.

But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the Lord.

Isaiah 3:4

And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.

D&C 50:40

Behold, ye are little children and ye cannot bear all things now; ye must grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth.

1 Samuel 2:18

But Samuel ministered before the Lord, being a child, girded with a linen ephod.

1 Samuel 17:33

And Saul said to David, Thou art not able to go against this Philistine to fight with him: for thou art but a youth, and he a man of war from his youth.

Lamentations 3:27

It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.

1 Timothy 4:12

Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

[Seminarysnoozer]

"Matured" in relation to the spirit doesn't mean that a person has completed their growth and development. I think it just implies that their general character traits, i.e - whether a person is noble or not or whether a person is valiant or not, is obvious.

Without that, if there was any chance for changing that, I doubt God would have cast out a third of the host of heaven for their behavior. God wouldn't judge an act that an individual isn't capable of choosing. If there was a chance for changing or developing (or whatever other word you want to use for that) then why would God cast them out? He could keep them around for a little longer until they made the change on themselves. But if that is not possible, i.e. - they are matured spirits, unable to change their natures, then the only thing that can be done is kick them out of the program, they don't want to be in the program, revealed by their selfish, rebellious, permanently established characteristics. ... If they had definitive characteristics that was sufficient to let God know they would never have what it takes to be in the program then similarly, we-all had definitive (unchangeable) characteristics that lets God know that we qualify for the second estate. Those characteristics include being obedient and non-rebellious, at various levels.

Likewise, God will not assign us to a Kingdom (permanently) without having all the information He needs to make that decision. I guess some here don't even believe that will be the case but I think most LDS believe it is permanent. If one believes that assignment is permanent then there is no possible way to change one's nature at that point to turn a Terrestrial nature to a Celestial one, it is there nature. I think some want to believe that God's decision is not based in enough information to make it in the first place.

This life is like a final exam with which not all the material is presented in the questions. We don't have to prove competency in all the questions possible, just the ones we are given. And even then, we don't have to get a straight A, just enough to show the right desire and Jesus is the finisher. This life is not the opportunity to make ourselves the finisher. (that to me sounds a little like what Satan wanted, give all the glory to me for my own effort) We are not supposed to win the fight, just fight a good fight, thats all. In other words, we are not supposed to overcome all the challenges in this life by ourselves as some form of competency measurement. It is a test of who we turn to for help in that regard, where we put our faith, in ourselves (things of this world, like our own body), or spiritual things, the gospel of Christ?

[JudoMinja]

This is why I started out this conversation by saying it depends on where you are making the comparison for change. If one compares where they were before the world began to after their earthly experience, I believe the "character" of that individual has changed very little, yes they have grown, matured, refined etc. but the general direction the person was heading has not changed much as we were matured spirits before coming here. Now, if you just are talking about the change one experiences from what happens in this life only, i.e. - the starting point for comparison is after one's mortal birth, and comparing that to the potential changes one can experience from that starting point to the end of life through the gospel of Christ - of course their are possible changes from that point to the end. That is what the gospel is for to make those changes. The rate of change is what God is looking at. But the potential for change was created first by putting us into a fallen state. ... If we first go down then we can go up. But, we started in the up position already. To move forward we had to go down first then onward. It all depends on from what point to what point you are comparing to determine if their is change.

I am talking about from before this life to after and you are mostly making reference to the change that occurs within this life, a starting point after mortal birth to a change before mortal death.

I know I didn't really define the "change" I was specifically looking for. I wanted to leave it broad enough for people to chime in about different points for how they think we change or don't change. However, I was specifically looking for the bolded part. I am talking about changes or progression we make from where we were before this life, during this life. Basically, how much of a difference does our time in this life make? If we were to compare where we were in maturity (all aspects of it) before we came here to where we will be in maturity after we die, will there be a big difference or a minute one?

I think you adequately identified your view on the matter here:

This life is like a final exam with which not all the material is presented in the questions. We don't have to prove competency in all the questions possible, just the ones we are given. And even then, we don't have to get a straight A, just enough to show the right desire and Jesus is the finisher. This life is not the opportunity to make ourselves the finisher. (that to me sounds a little like what Satan wanted, give all the glory to me for my own effort) We are not supposed to win the fight, just fight a good fight, thats all. In other words, we are not supposed to overcome all the challenges in this life by ourselves as some form of competency measurement. It is a test of who we turn to for help in that regard, where we put our faith, in ourselves (things of this world, like our own body), or spiritual things, the gospel of Christ?

However, this is what I personally disagree with. This life is a test, but I do not think it is a test in the way that an exam is a test. I think it is a test more like how weight training tests and builds, how we "test" our strength against challenges in order to make ourselves stronger. I think that this life is the time in which we experience the most change, and where the changes we experience have the most impact, when compared to pre-mortal and post-mortal life. It is the peak in our progression, the climax of the "story". Everything from our premortal life prepared us for this time, and eveything after is shaped by what we do now.