Reporting tithing to Church Leaders?

[Guest Cneve]

Not really, for the most part if you are keeping your baptismal covenants you are worthy to go the the temple. .

and pay tithe right? isnt that a important part? a must?

Moderator Edit: This line of conversation was split from a previous thread and thus why it starts somewhat incomplete. At the point of split the discussion was how members report tithing.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Dravin

[Dravin]

and pay tithe right? isnt that a important part? a must?

Which is part of the baptismal covenant.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Dravin

[Guest Cneve]

Which is part of the baptismal covenant.

and how do they check you really payed enough? do they know how much every one earns? do you pay every month?

[Dravin]

and how do they check you really payed enough?

They don't, the Bishop (and Stake President) during the temple recommend interview asks you if you are a full tithe payer and you tell him what your status is.

do they know how much every one earns?

Who is they? I'm sure someone with access to tithing records could make some sort of back calculation if they assume you are a full tithe payer but it's not like they have access to your W-2s. And not everyone calculates tithing in quite the same way (some pay gross, some pay net and various other differences) so even that has limitations. Not sure why they'd want to try to back-engineer your salary/income though.

do you pay every month?

Tithing settlement is done at the end of the year (beginning of December), as far as I'm concerned if you want to pay on a weekly, biweekly, monthly, bimonthly, quarterly, or annual basis go for it (personally I pay on each paycheck), and to my knowledge that Church doesn't care which either. Tithing settlement is when you meet with the Bishop, he gives you a printout of tithing paid to date and asks you to look it over for accuracy (one year one of my Dad's tithing payments ended up under my name for some reason, we have the same middle name) and if you are a full tithe payer. Whether it be the end of year tithing settlement or a temple recommend interview it's entirely you certifying to a servant of the Lord your status, there aren't audits or interrogations.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Dravin

[Guest Cneve]

They don't, the Bishop (and Stake President) during the temple recommend interview asks you if you are a full tithe payer and you tell him what your status is.

Who is they? I'm sure someone with access to tithing records could make some sort of back calculation if they assume you are a full tithe payer but it's not like they have access to your W-2s. And not everyone calculates tithing in quite the same way (some pay gross, some pay net and various other differences) so even that has limitations. Not sure why they'd want to try to back-engineer your salary/income though.

Tithing settlement is done at the end of the year (beginning of December), as far as I'm concerned if you want to pay on a weekly, biweekly, monthly, bimonthly, quarterly, or annual basis go for it (personally I pay on each paycheck), and to my knowledge that Church doesn't care which either. Tithing settlement is when you meet with the Bishop, he gives you a printout of tithing paid to date and asks you to look it over for accuracy (one year one of my Dad's tithing payments ended up under my name for some reason, we have the same middle name) and if you are a full tithe payer. Whether it be the end of year tithing settlement or a temple recommend interview it's entirely you certifying to a servant of the Lord your status, there aren't audits or interrogations.

so its basically just them asking if you payed and you can just say yes - no more questions asked? but what if the sum on the print out seems a bit low...?

[beefche]

so its basically just them asking if you payed and you can just say yes - no more questions asked? but what if the sum on the print out seems a bit low...?

They wouldn't know if it is low. They don't have access to our pay stubs or W2s. The bishop may counsel you on tithing if you declare yourself to not be a full tithe payer. He would likely discuss the principle of tithing and what barriers you may have to keep you from paying a full tithe. He would likely ask you to commit to being a full tithe payer. But, he wouldn't ask how much your salary is to compare to your tithing contributions.

[Dravin]

so its basically just them asking if you payed and you can just say yes - no more questions asked?

Yes just like when you are asked if you are keeping the law of chastity. Do you find it hard to believe the Bishop won't hire private detectives to make sure you're not cheating on your wife?

but what if the sum on the print out seems a bit low...?

Firstly how is he supposed if it's low or not? There are multiple situations in which ones standard of living wouldn't match up, and he wouldn't necessarily know your standard of living, on first glance with what one may expect to pay tithing. Debt would be a big one. Secondly What about it?

If he honestly suspect you are lying he'd handle it like he would any other situation in which he suspected you might be lying to him, but it's not like he'd demand your W-2ss. You may not mean to be communicating this, and it could just be my perception, but you seem to surprise that there isn't an army of auditors and that people aren't asked to provide W-2s.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Dravin

[Guest Cneve]

You may not mean to be communicating this, and it could just be my perception, but you seem to surprise that there isn't an army of auditors and that people aren't asked to provide W-2s.

Honestly yes a bit, cause i read stuff like that by ex-mormons who claims the church is very controlling and monitoring is members, and that the church really ask A LOT of questions about your economy, and are very strict about tithing? ?

[Dravin]

Honestly yes a bit, cause i read stuff like that by ex-mormons who claims the church is very controlling and monitoring is members, and that the church really ask A LOT of questions about your economy, and are very strict about tithing? ?

I guess you'll have to pick who you'll believe.

[Guest Cneve]

I guess you'll have to pick who you'll believe.

can both sides be true perhaps, depending on how strict different bishops/wards are?

[beefche]

I think the only time I've ever been asked about my "income" was during my once a year tithing settlement. The question is "Are you a full tithe payer?" The other time was when the bishop was asking all families if they could donate to the ward missionary fund. We had 6 missionaries serving from our ward and their families were having difficulties paying for the missions. The question was "Will you donate to the ward missionary fund?" I then asked how much was needed each month and the bishop gave me a figure, asking me if I could afford that.

The only other time I can think of that income was discussed was when I was going on a mission. Since missionaries pay their own way, my bishop asked me if I had the money to pay for it. When I said I didn't, we then discussed how much would be needed and what I could do and when I could expect to leave on a mission. I figured since the ward I was in was going to help pay for my mission, he had every right to ask me to get a job to help save money for my mission. But even then, he never asked me how much I made, but asked me to save enough to pay for at least 1/3 of my mission.

[jayanna]

truly, I just went to tithing settlement last Sunday, for my like tenth year in a row... are you a full tithe payer? yes, Okay, no other questions about it. Simple. 3 different bishops now, same question, same response.

Our building is getting pretty small for us, so we asked for a bigger one. One of the requirements to get a new building is that over 90% of our ward had to be full tithe-payers. When I heard that I remember wondering how long it would take to reach that mark. Actually a couple of months later tithing settlement came and we met that mark and then some. We are getting a new building, it is just taking time to find a site and get everything ready.

About the size of the temples, they are big, I wondered that myself when before I went. The ceilings are high in the celestial rooms, and sometimes the sealing rooms. They often have beautiful chandeliers... the San Diego temple is very beautiful and has large gorgeous stairways with windows that are cut glass and throw tiny rainbows about the interior.

I have been to an open house, and they did take us through all of the ordinance rooms, but not the dressing rooms or bathrooms. All of the ordinance rooms were covered and questions were answered about the purpose of each room. They even pointed out some of the symbolism in each area. I actually took my (then) nonmember date (now husband) with me, and our kids. It was great.

[annewandering]

can both sides be true perhaps, depending on how strict different bishops/wards are?

No. Only one side is right. It is just amazing how anyone could think the strange things they believe about the church.

The only thing I can think of is that they consistently confuse us with churches like the FLDS which may well be very controlling. Of course I am not sure if that is even true since the media gets so sensational about anything to do with polygamy.

If every LDS person tells you that we are not being mind controlled it is just weird that anyone can believe we are. Seriously millions of people in the world are so mind controlled that we just do what we are told. Get real. Look at the people on this site. There are so many outspoken opinions on here regarding the church and most are from members. Do we actually sound mind controlled?

lol I am sorry but I have to say lots of people, in my life, might wish I was mind controlled but alas I am not. Neither are the rest of the members of the church.

[Justice]

Honestly yes a bit, cause i read stuff like that by ex-mormons who claims the church is very controlling and monitoring is members, and that the church really ask A LOT of questions about your economy, and are very strict about tithing? ?

It sounds to me like they have a beef with the Church and don't want you joining. It makes perfect sense that they would say whatever they could, even lie, to get what they want. Misery loves company.

[Justice]

Maybe they are confused with the fact that the Church asks a lot of it's members. In a sense they are demanding that way. But, to me it's a priveledge to be able to help move forward the work of the Lord in whatever way they ask me. In my view, when I am asked to accept a calling, it is the Lord asking. How can I say no?

[Dravin]

can both sides be true perhaps, depending on how strict different bishops/wards are?

Not knowing the full extent of the other accounts I can't really comment on it. One thing is that people who ask for financial help may be asked to sit down with someone and go over the finances so I can certainly believe someone felt that was beyond the pale, and as Beefche points out sometimes people are asked if they can chip in for particular things and I could see how that might offend somebody but I have a very hard time thinking of some Bishop out there demanding financial proof for tithing settlement but it's possible somewhere it happened. But if the accounts you heard want to attribute some sort of policy based occurrence then I don't believe that at all.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Dravin

[jayanna]

I think it should also be kept in mind that it is much easier to pay a full tithe when there is a massive church welfare system in place should calamity arise in your household, such as job loss, illness, natural disaster, etc.

To recieve from said welfare program, you do not have to submit paystubs, check account statments or any other documentation other than a copy of any utility bill that you need the church to pay, so they can make out the check and mail it in for you.

The food and household supplies are not the cheapest found, or donated unwanted cans from peoples cupboards, but it is usually produced, packaged, and distributed by the church. It is of excellent quality, and cheerfully given.

[Guest Cneve]

i have read on a certain anti-mormon site that the LDS church is obsessed with money in many ways, and are very controlling and inquisitive about members private economy? was many examples of it. But it that is not the case then fine.

[Guest]

Other than the yearly "are you a full tithe payer", the only financial questions ever asked us were when our bishop knew we were having a hard time, and asked if we were doing okay and did we need anything. In both my husband's huge families and all the wards we've been in, I've never heard of anyone being grilled about their finances or pressured to provide information or more money. We have been asked to increase our fast offerings collectively as a ward when need for welfare became higher, but that was over the pulpit. You can't tell me that other churches never ask their membership to be more generous in their contributions.

[Vort]

i have read on a certain anti-mormon site that the LDS church is obsessed with money in many ways, and are very controlling and inquisitive about members private economy? was many examples of it. But it that is not the case then fine.

I read on certain antiMormon sites that people sacrifice their oldest child on the temple altar and that Mormons keep their horns sanded down so no one suspects. Not that I'm saying this is the case, but, um, is this the case?

Of course, if you say no, then you're probably just hiding something. I read Mormons do that a lot. Those antiMormon sites really are a great help to me.

[RipplecutBuddha]

I've been in several wards, and the only time members financial situations come up is during tithing settlement. Of course the Church is very controlling about the money given to it from members, but I don't think that's what was being discussed.

Whatever is given as tithing is considered sacred by the Church and the things it is spent on are watched very carefully. In fact, the Church has an independant audit performed every year to make sure the accounting practices are legal, and that all money has been handled appropriately for its intended purposes, whether tithing, fast offerings, missionary funds, or other sub-categories of donations the Church accepts.

The standard is that every member is to give 10% of their annual increase to the church as tithing. It is impossible to prove whether or not someone is paying the full tithe, and there are different measures, whether net pay, gross pay, interest from investments, etc. It's up to each of us as individuals to be obedient to the principle of tithing. The Bishop and Stake President ask us if we are or not, and we answer either yes or no. Whether we're honest about it or not is between us and God.

[jerome1232]

I'm sure the occasional overzealous bishop over steps his bounds now and then, however I seriously doubt it is the norm nor to the degree being suggested.

[Leah]

i have read on a certain anti-mormon site that the LDS church is obsessed with money in many ways, and are very controlling and inquisitive about members private economy? was many examples of it. But it that is not the case then fine.

Just consider for a moment where that information is coming from....a site that is against the Church. Do you honestly think they are going to say positive things about the Church? Do you honestly think they are going to tell the truth?

As for being "inquisitve about members private ecomony", yes, my Bishop is very inquisitive about my "private economy". He knows that I am struggling financially and that I do not make enough to pay my bills each month and that I do not have health insurance. He is so "inquisitive" that he has been putting his head together with my Home Teacher, trying to come up with solutions to the situation, and even offered to pay my rent and provide groceries.

[pam]

I wonder sometimes if some of the negative remarks posted on other sites such as about tithing, don't come from former or even current members who have attempted to get financial help. Yet they were denied.

When it came to tithing and year end tithing settlement, I have never been asked to prove my income.

Yet when I was struggling right after my divorce, my Bishop was a bit more inquisitive as to how much I made and how the money was spent. That was when I was asking for assistance with food etc.

Did I think he was being nosey? Nope. I know the Bishop has a stewardship in making sure the funds donated to the church are spent wisely and appropriately.

[Echo2002]

I agree with Pam, it's probably claims from ex members or members who get rejected for financial help. The church isn't going to give money to someone who spends their money on unnecessary things.