Lds Belief....does It Violate The 11th Article?

[Brother Dorsey]

Okay...my opinion of these questions got me a 24 hour excommunication from these boards ...so I will put it as delicately as possible....anyone can asnwer it and it is directed at no one in particular!

Joseph Smith went to the Sacred Grove to specifically ask of God one question....What church should he join. Here is the Prophets depiction of that verbal exchange with Christ:

"I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects were right (for at this time it had never entered in my heart that all were wrong)...and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage that addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

My question....is four parts, First three for LDS posters....Being LDS, if the Lord told the Prophet that all other Christian sects are an abomination in his eyes is this not doctrine and the truth? B)

....secondly, if these sects are an abomination, the professors of these creeds corrupt by teaching the doctrine of men....would you understand this to mean these sects are influenced by Satan the great deceiver? B)

....third if this is the case, is telling someone of another faith that their church is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord a violation of the 11th article of faith?...which states:

"We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may"

...and lastly...to the Non LDS posters....what is your feeling about this, to know the LDS church and it's members recognize your church as an abomination and your church leaders corrupted by Satan?

To the Moderators....these are legitimate questions about LDS doctrine...not posted to offend any person or other reliogn....

Thanks you!

[Dr T]

Good questions Bro. D.,

I hope others will speak to those questions. Since I'm not LDS, I can't address the first 3. The last question is something I always wonder about when two (whichever they might be) religious groups get together. I've talked to Christian that I know and they basically say the same about LDS beliefs. "LDS all believe false doctrine and Satan has corrupted them." "They are all going to hell." My question is always, "How do you know that you are right and they are wrong and vice versa." I really hope people will speak to this.

Thanks again,

Dr. T

[Outshined]

Being LDS, if the Lord told the Prophet that all other Christian sects are an abomination in his eyes is this not doctrine and the truth?

Bear in mind that Joseph was not asking about all Christian churches, but the ones he was debating on joining in his hometown. There was a revival on, and quite a competition among churches for membership. My understanding is that he was not asking about all churches in the world, but those he knew locally.

...secondly, if these sects are an abomination, the professors of these creeds corrupt by teaching the doctrine of men....would you understand this to mean these sects are influenced by Satan the great deceiver?

Perhaps not Satan, but at least corrupted by man's attempts to place God in the constraints of his own understanding.

...third if this is the case, is telling someone of another faith that their church is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord a violation of the 11th article of faith?...which states:

"We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may"

It would be. However, God said it, not Joseph, and He is not bound by our creeds. B)

...and lastly...to the Non LDS posters....what is your feeling about this, to know the LDS church and it's members recognize your church as an abomination and your church leaders corrupted by Satan?

As you see above, I consider this a gross misinterpretation. The LDS Church does not teach that any church is "an abomination" nor that their church leaders are "corrupted by Satan".

I hope that helps you.

[Princess3dward]

Okay...my opinion of these questions got me a 24 hour excommunication from these boards ...so I will put it as delicately as possible....anyone can asnwer it and it is directed at no one in particular!

Joseph Smith went to the Sacred Grove to specifically ask of God one question....What church should he join. Here is the Prophets depiction of that verbal exchange with Christ:

"I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects were right (for at this time it had never entered in my heart that all were wrong)...and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage that addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

My question....is four parts, First three for LDS posters....Being LDS, if the Lord told the Prophet that all other Christian sects are an abomination in his eyes is this not doctrine and the truth? B)

Yes.

....secondly, if these sects are an abomination, the professors of these creeds corrupt by teaching the doctrine of men....would you understand this to mean these sects are influenced by Satan the great deceiver? B)

Yes.

....third if this is the case, is telling someone of another faith that their church is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord a violation of the 11th article of faith?...which states:

"We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may"

.....

To the Moderators....these are legitimate questions about LDS doctrine...not posted to offend any person or other reliogn....

... I'm LDS... but if I wern't... I might be offended... and possibly colder towards LDS members...

[Brother Dorsey]

<div class='quotemain'>

Being LDS, if the Lord told the Prophet that all other Christian sects are an abomination in his eyes is this not doctrine and the truth?

Bear in mind that Joseph was not asking about all Christian churches, but the ones he was debating on joining in his hometown. There was a revival on, and quite a competition among churches for membership. My understanding is that he was not asking about all churches in the world, but those he knew locally.

So, you believe that God was only telling JS that only the churches he was inquiring about were abominations....and the others he didn't ask about were were okay? Then why didn't the Lord say...hey those are wrong but this one here's okay to join?....Why did the Lord tell JS all were wrong?

...secondly, if these sects are an abomination, the professors of these creeds corrupt by teaching the doctrine of men....would you understand this to mean these sects are influenced by Satan the great deceiver?

Perhaps not Satan, but at least corrupted by man's attempts to place God in the constraints of his own understanding.

I can accept that answer...yes...What does the scripture say...if it is good and true it is of God, if it is not, it is of....man?....or?

...third if this is the case, is telling someone of another faith that their church is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord a violation of the 11th article of faith?...which states:

"We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may"

It would be. However, God said it, not Joseph, and He is not bound by our creeds. B)

I have to disagree, if what you say is true, then sending the missionaries to convert others would be a violation also wouldn't it? Personally I think this was written as a guarantee that the LDS would never physically persucute anyone for their beliefs as thay had been.

...and lastly...to the Non LDS posters....what is your feeling about this, to know the LDS church and it's members recognize your church as an abomination and your church leaders corrupted by Satan?

As you see above, I consider this a gross misinterpretation. The LDS Church does not teach that any church is "an abomination" nor that their church leaders are "corrupted by Satan".

Actually I beg to differ....you hear it everytime a member bears testimony, that the LDS church is the only true church on Earth, you read it in the discription of the first vision (which I quoted) which is considered scripture....I bet you would not deny that the LDS church is the only church that man should be a member of and all others are wrong and as the Lord said "an abomination and professors of those churches corrupt". You are right that the LDS church does not outright teach it in those terms you stated but it is there.

[Outshined]

So, you believe that God was only telling JS that only the churches he was inquiring about were abominations....and the others he didn't ask about were were okay? Then why didn't the Lord say...hey those are wrong but this one here's okay to join?....Why did the Lord tell JS all were wrong?

Because they were all wrong, but Joseph asked specifically about the churches in his town. When God said they were an abomination, I understand that to be the churches JS was asking about, though His Church was not on the earth at that time, so none was the right one. Of course, it was God speaking, not Joseph Smith. Any "offense" one would be tempted to feel should be considered in that light. If one really wanted to be that sensitive, he could spend his life reading the Bible and being offended by what he reads there...

I can accept that answer...yes...What does the scripture say...if it is good and true it is of God, if it is not, it is of....man?....or?

He did say man, did he not?

I have to disagree, if what you say is true, then sending the missionaries to convert others would be a violation also wouldn't it? Personally I think this was written as a guarantee that the LDS would never physically persucute anyone for their beliefs as thay had been.

And I disagree with that interpretation, of course. No one is forced to abandon any faith they may have to follow the LDS Church. The Gospel is offered; it is their choice whether to accept. That in no way violates any of the Articles of Faith. As to why it was written, I don't attribute such ulterior motives. It is simply what we are expected to live; it has nothing to do with controlling how others treat us.

Actually I beg to differ....you hear it everytime a member bears testimony, that the LDS church is the only true church on Earth, you read it in the discription of the first vision (which I quoted) which is considered scripture....I bet you would not deny that the LDS church is the only church that man should be a member of and all others are wrong and as the Lord said "an abomination and professors of those churches corrupt". You are right that the LDS church does not outright teach it in those terms you stated but it is there.

I disagreee of course. It is a long way from saying the LDS Church is the only true church to "everyone else is an abomination". Perhaps you've gotten that from listening to testimonies, but I do not. Yes, this is God's Church, but that does not make everyone else "abominations" or "corrupted by satan", and the Church does not teach that, as you've admitted. That you chose to see it that way is your personal interpretation, one I do not share.

All these questions really seem like the kind of thing one should ask God directly, since it was God who said it. B)

[pushka]

Outshined,

I like your answers to the above questions...noting that they are not quite so black and white.

As a non LDS, if I was to belong to a particular religious denomination and was told that it was considered 'an abomination' and that it's leaders were 'corrupted by Satan' I would be very offended. I would question that person's evidence for believing that...which comes down to the basic do you believe that Joseph Smith had the Visions that he claimed, and I would ask that my church be judged by how it treated its members and the rest of the world rather than by a statement that was made by 'God' in a Vision claimed to have been received by the leader of the LDS church.

(Hope that isn't too wordy!! Sorry...)

[prisonchaplain]

[...and lastly...to the Non LDS posters....what is your feeling about this, to know the LDS church and it's members recognize your church as an abomination and your church leaders corrupted by Satan?

Thanks you!

Brother Dorsey does bring up one of the most common quotations used by Anti-Mormons to stir up the interest of evangelical Christians in converting Mormons to traditional Christianity. They argue, "We're not anti-Mormon. We're just defending our faith against this very aggressive attack."

When I read this quotation over 20 years ago, of course I was offended. But, after visiting this site, and having a chance to see a broad range of LDS thought on a broad range of topics, I've come to see that the Church has tempered its view, and that there are other, much more positive viewpoints within the LDS Standard Works.

The bottom-line is that LDS theology seems to put most observant evangelical Christians into the Terrestial Kingdom, where we would live forever with Jesus, but not the Father. It would be considered a place of honor and reward.

Furthermore, I've found that most LDS members at this site rather prefer abominated evangelicals, corrupted by Satan, who are, nevertheless, nice over fellow LDS members who are not.

[Outshined]

<div class='quotemain'>

[...and lastly...to the Non LDS posters....what is your feeling about this, to know the LDS church and it's members recognize your church as an abomination and your church leaders corrupted by Satan?

Thanks you!

Brother Dorsey does bring up one of the most common quotations used by Anti-Mormons to stir up the interest of evangelical Christians in converting Mormons to traditional Christianity. They argue, "We're not anti-Mormon. We're just defending our faith against this very aggressive attack."

Especially when it is worded in such an inflammatory manner. As you should know by now, the LDS Church does not "recognize your church as an abomination and your church leaders corrupted by Satan". That is the worst kind of misinformation; the kind that breeds hatred.

All I can say to Soulsearcher is: you must live in an area very different from mine. I have yet to see this pity or "holier than thou" behavior in the members here. Either you live where the members are a different breed or you choose to dwell only on the negatives you've seen from members.

[Outshined]

No doubt it's there to be seen; I was raised Baptist and saw some pretty nasty behavior justified by church members. We used to joke that the Bible's main purpose was to show your neighbor why they were going to hell.

I didn't really know any LDS members before I joined some years ago. The behavior of the ones I met later caused me to investigate the Church more closely, and I ended up joining. My wife and I have a lot of friends outside the LDS Church, mainly because there just aren't that many here in Tennessee.

We used to have a lesbian atheist couple babysit our kids when we went out . They were good friends from my National Guard unit, and we hung out a lot before they moved away. The ones to make an issue of that was my wife's parents; their minister told them our kids would end up "like those women" if they associated with them.

It's just never been an issue for me; my best buddy in the NG unit is a Pentecostal preacher, so we get a lot of jokes about "the Mormon and the holy roller".

I suppose it's like you said; one bad experience can do a lot of damage, no matter how nice everyone else is.

[Outshined]

I hope we can make a small difference here.

Sounds like you've had enough crappy LDS experiences to last a lifetime.

[rosie321]

Soulsearcher-

I'm sorry that you have had such bad LDS examples (as have we all).

Once again I apologize to you for mine. My example was not good either as spoken of in my last post responding to yours.

Please be patient with us imperfect LDS . It's too easy to get carried away . Or have things get out of whack . Its a complex faith and not every one expresses it in the best way. Some of us have along way to go in our faith walk . Continue to seek out perfect measuring sticks that lie beyond people. Love/Gospel...

The best things take time and work.

Please don't let crazy people such as myself keep you from something that might be true .

[Ray]

If it sounds any better, i'm slowly finding more positive examples here, and it's giving me hope.

I'm happy to be of service to you, Soulsearcher.

I'm here to remind you that you should love everyone!!!... not just those who are nice to you.

And that you can only learn the truth from God... who cares what others think about anything!!!

:)

[Outshined]

To be honest Outshined this site has made a difference. Not sure it's the right difference or not. My friends who are LDS who know me in person really want me to leave this site. They see it haveing the opposite effect of what i was was looking for here. I gain knowledge, but my spirit takes a constant beating.

Hey, I was gone from here for months. I usually surf the boards for a while, then let it go when the spirit gets too unpleasant. You know, arguments, accusations, people telling you what you believe. A break is usually just what I need when things get like that.

You might consider trying one of the contention-free boards like Knowledge-Light-Truth too. Those are boards where you can discuss and delve into the LDS faith, but contention and argument are not allowed. They can make a nice change.

[Ray]

Hey, I was gone from here for months. I usually surf the boards for a while, then let it go when the spirit gets too unpleasant. You know, arguments, accusations, people telling you what you believe. A break is usually just what I need when things get like that.

Hello Outshined,

Welcome back. (I haven't said much to you personally lately). :)

And btw, to help fill you in a little, Soulsearcher is a little upset with me right now because he thinks I have told him that what he knows to be true is really not true and that Satan is helping him to believe that what he believes is true when in fact it really is not true.

And as I said, that is what he thinks I have said, or implied, regarding his personal beliefs.

In fact, though... or dare I say it (yes), in truth... I have only said that Satan is very active in helping people to believe things that really are not true, while I have also been saying that we can all learn the truth from God if we really, and I mean really, do want to.

Or in other words, I have never implied anything regarding his personal beliefs... but he really believes that I have... so I'm one of the ones he's a little bit miffed at and is speaking against in that post.

Just some FYI, to let you know what's been happening. :)

[Brother Dorsey]

so I'm one of the ones he's a little bit miffed at and is speaking against in that post.

Just some FYI, to let you know what's been happening. :)

No, no Ray...I'm the one that he's mad at...I got defensive with JoshuaK and PrisonChaplain and spouted off my big mouth...it's all my fault...and I guess it didn't help starting this thread either...who am I to judge anyone...or put words in other LDS members mouths........sorry everyone I had a brain fart.

Soulsearcher....I'm sorry, I had no right to ask the questions of this thread I started....I don't think members of other churches are Satans followers, they are mostly good people searching for the truth as many others are.....As a true believer of LDS doctrine, I do however have this innate desire to spread the truth to people who do not know the joy and happiness it can bring them....sometimes I get carried away......but I am only human, subject to making mistakes and hurting my fellow man as we all are...so I am asking for forgiveness from you and PrisonChaplian as well as any others here whom I offended over the past 4 days.........I really am a very nice guy, I just made a mistake. Thanks.

[prisonchaplain]

I really am a very nice guy, I just made a mistake. Thanks.

Wow! Cool. Bro. Dorsey, you've got a fresh start with me. B)

[Princess3dward]

We still love you Brother!!!

[Ray]

I hold nothing against you or Ray...

I'm very happy to hear that, Soulsearcher.

I really would like to love and be loved by EVERYONE...

... even when we don't agree with each other...

... and I've never stopped loving you since the day that I met you. :)