what challenges your faith the most?

[Seminarysnoozer]

My own weaknesses and self-betrayals. By far.

I agree, the most challenging aspect of faith is the thing that most directly opposes it which is our body, our mind. Our spiritual self contends with the passions of the flesh which include doubt, the desire to prove the truth of concepts over having faith, relying on our own knowledge all comes from the way our brain is wired. The mortal, corrupted body is our biggest challenge, which is our weakness and where our self-betrayals come from. Our spirits have a quiet voice, a subtle influence, that requires a lot of effort to hear and maintain. The challenge is to keep trying to make the spirit's influence louder to overcome the default force which is the natural man, the mind, the desires of the flesh. If no effort is given the natural man takes over and over time this makes it harder and harder to hear the spirit's influence. People that have let that process blind their "right eye" over time, by choice, have frequent experiences that easily overcome their faith.

[Blackmarch]

I read through the first page yesterday and I've been thinking about the questions and responses I read since then.

What challenges my faith? Nothing, because my faith is in Christ. I believe in the Atonement.

How can our sins be a challenge to faith if faith is in Christ and the Atonement?

Because without the spirit it is easy to allow doubt to replace our faith, and easy to forget what the Lord has done for us in our lives.

[Traveler]

(im talking more about rational challenges than emotional ones)

The stupidities of pseudo-intellectuals that think they know about our faith but in reality have no clue nor desire to learn by honest commitment to personal discipline.

The Traveler

[applepansy]

Because without the spirit it is easy to allow doubt to replace our faith, and easy to forget what the Lord has done for us in our lives.

But if we have faith and we understand the Atonement then that doubt is short lived.

[Dravin]

But if we have faith and we understand the Atonement then that doubt is short lived.

You seem to be setting for the only thing that can challenge faith is a lack of faith. Which I suppose is true but it isn't particularly illuminating and ignores precursors. Somewhat like chalking up the cause of death after being shot and bleeding out as cardiac arrest.

[Seminarysnoozer]

You seem to be setting for the only thing that can challenge faith is a lack of faith. Which I suppose is true but it isn't particularly illuminating and ignores precursors. Somewhat like chalking up the cause of death after being shot and bleeding out as cardiac arrest.

I like this quote by Keith Howick talking about the parable of the sower; "The parable taught clearly where the responsibility lay with regard to the kingdom of God and the reception of the gospel. It was not with the sower and it was not in the seed - it was in the 'soil,' the heart of man." - E. Keith Howick, The Parables of Jesus The Messiah (pg. 30)

I guess this thread is talking about the seeds or the sower, which is fine, but that is not the most important thing, it is what is in the heart that determines what happens to the faith. The soil it lands in is what makes it a challenge or not.

Why is it that when we drive down the highway, one person is white-knuckling the steering wheel while the next car over the person is singing a song on the radio? They are both in the same situation. The situation isn't the cause for the reaction, then. What challenges faith is only a challenge because of the reaction to the topic, not the topic itself.

[Guest]

The stupidities of pseudo-intellectuals that think they know about our faith but in reality have no clue nor desire to learn by honest commitment to personal discipline.

The Traveler

That may not test my faith, but it sure tests my patience.

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

(im talking more about rational challenges than emotional ones)

This is a great question to ask, and more importantly to answer after some very prayerful reflection on oneself...

For me there are many things that hold me back, but the biggest is my "logical side." I have to think everything through to the point they don't make sense anymore. A good example was when I was trying to decided to get baptised or not. I thought about it and set myself a goal (to read the Book of Mormon all the way through first, then make my decision). In the end I was over thinking and not listening to what Heavenly Father was telling me. When I finally "let go and let God" the decision was simple.

[Traveler]

That may not test my faith, but it sure tests my patience.

Exactly - and I end up saying or doing something that I regret which requires repentance later.

The Traveler

[applepansy]

You seem to be setting for the only thing that can challenge faith is a lack of faith. Which I suppose is true but it isn't particularly illuminating and ignores precursors. Somewhat like chalking up the cause of death after being shot and bleeding out as cardiac arrest.

Yes a lack of faith is the only challenge to faith. I do not discount that actions/events can cause anyone to question their faith. My point is: if your faith is firmly rooted in Christ and the Atonement, external factors such as sin don't make much of a dent.

The analogy of being shot doesn't fit for me. Of course the cause of death is being shot. Cardiac arrest is secondary. This analogy is physical. I thought we were talking about spiritual.

I can't find the words to rework your physical analogy to spiritual and result in a loss of faith.

Example: I have faith. I believe in Christ. In a weak moment I steal something from a friend. Nothing small...something big. Nobody knows it was me. I can allow that sin to challenge my faith or I can avail myself of Christ's Atoning Sacrifice. The choice is spiritual, not physical. There will be physical consequences to repenting, but the initial decision which will effect faith is a spiritual decision. If I choose to not confess and repent then of course the Holy Ghost will leave and my faith will falter. If I don't exercise my faith my faith will decrease. If I continue down this road then eventually my faith will diminish to the point that I might be able to say I no longer have faith at all. But, if I choose to exercise the faith I have, repent, make things right then faith will increase. The root decision is faith or no faith.

(interrupted)

My husband just came home and I asked him the question "What challenges your faith?" and told him that some had said sin. He responded that for him it wasn't sin that would challenge his faith but obedience. He agreed that even with obedience it is a lack of faith that challenges faith.

What other analogies can we explore? :)

EDIT: Thank you Seminarysnoozer. I appreciate the Keith Howick quote.

Edited December 7, 2011 by applepansy

[Dravin]

My point is: if your faith is firmly rooted in Christ and the Atonement, external factors such as sin don't make much of a dent.

The analogy of being shot doesn't fit for me. Of course the cause of death is being shot. Cardiac arrest is secondary. This analogy is physical. I thought we were talking about spiritual.

And my point is if your heart keeps beating external factors like a gunshot don't make much of a dent on the status of being alive either just like you are saying if your faith stays strong it doesn't weaken. It's getting into tautology territory. And yes I'm using a physical analogy for a spiritual concept, we do it all the time. A common one is to compare faith to a muscle, something that strengthens as we exercise it. Or comparing faith to a seed (Alma 32, the parable of the sower), something that grows when given the right conditions.

In the end, and I know, I'm repeating myself, if your faith stays strong it doesn't weaken is a less than useful tautology. Just like chalking up a gunshot death to cardiac arrest ignores the more pertinent question of what caused the cardiac arrest, or in your case what causes faith to weaken. To put it in the context of the parable of the sower, what is it that lowers our fertility to the seed? Pointing out that if you're fertile you are not barren doesn't exactly tell us anything.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Dravin

[Dravin]

I guess this thread is talking about the seeds or the sower, which is fine, but that is not the most important thing, it is what is in the heart that determines what happens to the faith. The soil it lands in is what makes it a challenge or not.

No it's not. Not how I read it. It's asking what challenges the receptivity of the soil. What is it that challenges us (not makes us and it won't be the same for everyone) to go barren to the seed already planted.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Dravin

[Seminarysnoozer]

Just like chalking up a gunshot death to cardiac arrest ignores the more pertinent question of what caused the cardiac arrest, or in your case what causes faith to weaken. To put it in the context of the parable of the sower, what is it that lowers our fertility to the seed? Pointing out that if you're fertile not barren doesn't exactly tell us anything.

I think that is what Applepansy gave, an example of how that happens. And the key word used there is "choice". When one chooses evil things in this life there is a process used metaphorically in the scriptures many ways, such as obscuration of the right eye, becoming stiffnecked, hardening of the heart, having desires of the flesh etc that turns into having bad 'barren' soil. The first step in that process though is a choice made. It is internal, it is not external in any way except the fact that the choice is given via external factors. But, hardening of the heart and obscuration of the right eye does not occur without the person wanting to make that choice in that direction.

When one person 'white knuckles' the steering wheel on the freeway and the another person sings a song on the radio while driving, as happy as could be, the differences are not attributed to the external factor of being on the freeway. They are attributed to the internal way in which each individual reacts to those external factors. Likewise, the ultimate fork in the road to whether something challenges faith or not is dependent on the internalization of those external factors. That is the point.

The soil is the spiritual make up of that person. How do we get spiritual features? I don't know exactly, I don't think anyone really knows, we were born spiritually that way and we had a chance to mature those features before coming here. Our spiritual character is refined here, but it is what it is when we enter as spiritual adults.

[Dravin]

I think that is what Applepansy gave, an example of how that happens.

No, she initially was setting up for a pointless observation. Later her example is closer to a viable discussion of the topic at hand. Of course her example boils down to sin being a challenge to faith. If she wants to phrase her position as "The only way challenges to our faith succeed is when we choose them over having faith." I'll wholeheartedly agree and chalk up to a breakdown in communication. But as initially phrased she by all appearances was going down the road for an exchange like this:

Person 1: What challenges your staying dry?

Person 2: The only challenge to staying dry is getting wet.

How do we get spiritual features? I don't know exactly, I don't think anyone really knows, we were born spiritually that way and we had a chance to mature those features before coming here.

Edit: It occurs to me you're talking premortal existence. Conference talks would fall under maturing then once we're here.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Dravin

[The_Phoenix]

(im talking more about rational challenges than emotional ones)

People, without them it would be perfect, but also without them it would be boring.

[applepansy]

No, she initially was setting up for a pointless observation.

If that's what you felt it was then obviously that is where communication between the two of us broke down.

Have a great day Dravin. :)

[unixknight]

My own weaknesses and self-betrayals. By far.

This.

Because sometimes, when you're all twisted up and trying to keep from falling into despair, the thought of just putting it all down and indulging in some other, easier belief can be disturbingly attractive.

It would be a lot easier if God didn't hold us to a high standard. Less effort, less guilt, more fun, more indulgence, less time spent battling our carnal nature... I've found myself envying those who don't hold to that standard.

But... that wouldn't be the truth. And ultimately holding to what's true and right is its own reward, and will be rewarded further in the hereafter.

[Seminarysnoozer]

No, she initially was setting up for a pointless observation. Later her example is closer to a viable discussion of the topic at hand. Of course her example boils down to sin being a challenge to faith. If she wants to phrase her position as "The only way challenges to our faith succeed is when we choose them over having faith." I'll wholeheartedly agree and chalk up to a breakdown in communication. But as initially phrased she by all appearances was going down the road for an exchange like this:

Person 1: What challenges your staying dry?

Person 2: The only challenge to staying dry is getting wet.

Edit: It occurs to me you're talking premortal existence. Conference talks would fall under maturing then once we're here.

Then the purpose of the original question itself is difficult to grasp. Mortal life itself is what challenges faith. That is one of the purposes of this life, to see if we will have enough faith to do what God asks us to do. So, life challenges faith.

Specifically, if the question is what is it that is attacking faith, then the parable of the sower summerizes that in terms of what Jesus explained are the "birds" - which is hearing Satan, "sun" - affliction and persecution burn the seeds that have no root, and "thorns" - choke the seed, which is cares of this world, riches, lusts etc. That about covers all the things that challenge faith. Mark 4:15 - 20

As to the edit; that is probably a topic for a different thread, sorry I introduced it here but I think there is a difference between our spirits developing personal traits, likes and dislikes, whether a person is noble, valiant or not, as in "spiritual maturity" is different than maturing "spirituality". Developing "spirituality", on the other hand, can only occur while in a state of choosing between our dual being state of both physical and spiritual. The ability to put off the natural man and choose our spiritual nature is called spirituality. The spiritual nature, though, of any person was developed, as far as we could before this life. Dallin H. Oaks; "Our understanding of life begins with a council in heaven. There the spirit children of God were taught his eternal plan for their destiny. We had progressed as far as we could without a physical body and an experience in mortality." Otherwise, one would have to explain how children who die before the age of 8 or those that are born with conditions like trisomy 21 are being accepted into the Celestial Kingdom while being an immature spirit. They aren't, they matured like all of us before this life.