Are we commanded to attend church meetings?

[Vort]

While it is true that a person should attend Sacrament meeting for the partaking of the Sacrament, if a person is unable to hear the speakers for the last half hour then what is that person supposed to do? Should my mother just sit there and play crossword puzzles the entire time? What's the point if she can't hear what the speakers are saying? Is she supposed to show up just for appearances sake so that she won't be placed in some dumb 'inactive' category? It's easy for someone who doesn't have this problem to say "you MUST attend your meetings regardless!" For my mother, she probably gets way more spiritually out of reading a few pages of the Ensign on Sundays than she does just sitting in a meeting staring at the walls for an hour.

Carl, you keep bringing your mother up as an example, but this is problematic. For one thing, we don't know your mother, so we cannot possibly speak to her situation.

For another -- what happens if we disagree? Shall we say, "No, your mother should be in the chapel and quit complaining"? How well will that go over? In fact, anything we say about your mother -- ANYTHING -- you can dismiss with, "Well, you don't know what you're talking about." Which is true! We don't know your mother!

In choosing the example of your mother, you have guaranteed that no serious discussion can take place, because you can take offense at anyone who disagrees with you on the matter.

I would suggest that a great part of the reason we are commanded to "meet together oft" is in the "together" part. Simply being with our fellow Saints can strengthen us and forge bonds of brotherhood and sisterhood.

I would also suggest that we ought to care as much about what we can give to our meetings as we do about what we can get out of them. Your mother's presence at Church, week after week, might instill confidence and admiration in a young, harried mother who questions why she goes to such efforts every Sunday, or might plant a seed in a young girl's heart that blossoms decades later, when she remembers Sister Carl faithfully attending her meetings, even when she often couldn't see or hear.

The Lord has favored us beyond measure by allowing us to be a part of his kingdom. Part of what he asks is that we attend our meetings. To me, that does not seem too great a price for such a bounty.

[Traveler]

I thought I would tell a story – a true story from my youth. I grew up in Provo, Utah a couple of blocks from the BYU campus. My ward was a powerful ward filed with LDS scholars. Hugh Nibley was one of my Sunday school teachers. There was also a rather odd old man in our ward that rarely came to church and if he did he only came to sacrament meeting. Priesthood in those days was early Sunday morning.

Sometimes when this old guy would attend testimony meeting he would bear his testimony – that often took up an hour or more. As a youth I thought of the old guy as boring and do not recall anything he ever said. I never listened. Once in a while the Aaronic Priesthood would take sacrament to this old guy that seemed to me to be healthy enough to come to church. At the time, I did not understand why we bothered with the old guy. Then as old guys do – he died.

His funeral ended up being kind of a big deal and President Hugh B. Brown (then in the 1st Presidency) came as the main speaker at the funeral. Because Brother Brown was kind of a mentor and friend of mine – I not only attended the funeral (priest at the time) but I took a date. A young lady I wanted to impress with my friends in high places kind of thing. And in case anyone is wondering – no, the young lady was not that impressed – with me. But let’s get back to the important part of the story.

President Brown talked about the old guy in his talk – they were close and the old guy had a profound influence in the life of President Brown. But when I knew the old guy – he did not even have a calling – how could such a boring guy have a profound effect on an Apostle of G-d? During President Brown’s talk he said something that deeply touched me – Brother Brown testified that this old guy had a perfect knowledge of Jesus Christ. At that moment the spirit bore witness to me the full extent of that testimony. Old Brother Harrison had conversed with the L-rd as had Moses, Joseph Smith and many other prophets. But I only knew Brother Harrison as a boring old nobody that seldom came to church – I did not think such a thing possible. And in all my righteousness – I had never been blessed to anything close to such spiritual greatness – and I was a 100% loyal and faithful attender of every church meeting offered.

The moral of this story – not everyone that attends church knows that much about G-d (myself being the example). And not everyone that is not at church is not there because they are not “worthy” before G-d (Old Brother Harrison being the example).

The Traveler

[applepansy]

Thank you Traveler.

[sister_in_faith]

Simply being with our fellow Saints can strengthen us and forge bonds of brotherhood and sisterhood.

I just want to say that this is not always true for everybody. I have had wonderful experiences (mostly when I went to the singles ward) being with other saints and forging those bonds of brotherhood and sisterhood, and I will always cherish that. But for me gathering together with other ward members can sometimes be a very terrifying experience.

I made the huge mistake of going to a ward picnic a few months ago. It was just a few blocks from my house, so I took Sophie and we walked down to the park. I didn't bring my purse (or any medications, dumb, dumb, dumb). I got there and realized that I didn't know very many people there (just the bishop, RS president and sister mishies). I didn't want to interfere with the good time they were having by going and sitting next to them. All of a sudden I didn't know what to do. The kids had taken Sophie and were off playing with her. I was alone. And panic set in. I mean serious, diblilitating, I'm either going to run or collapse, panic. I was shaking, and I didn't know what to do. People were trying to fellowship by yelling at me to come sit down and eat. I smiled and waved, and shook.

I called my boyfriend and told him I needed medication. He said he was on his way. I was so scared I literally could not move. The RS president came over to talk to me, and I told her what was going on. Thank Heavenly Father she stayed right by my side until my honey came racing up with medication in hand. When they got me to where I could move, honey packed me up in his truck and got me out of there.

I was SO embarassed, even tho no one but the RS president knew what was going on.

I know that panic attacks don't have any rhyme or reason to them, and often happen even where there isn't any real 'danger', but for me, even going to church on a bad day can trigger one. Being around fellow saints often causes me to distance, rather than bond. It is a difficult thing, because I WANT to be part of the ward, but it scares the daylights out of me. That is one of the reasons that attending the temple is easier for me than even gonig to church. No kids. It is quiet. People don't try to smother you. You can go at your own pace and do your own thing, you have control over your environment. So I am sure there are people who say, man, that sister doesn't come to church very often (because I also will choose to sit in the lobby rather than in the meeting with everyone else, so people don't really know how often I come), but she is ALWAYS at the temple. She isn't worthy!

I just say this so that we don't judge people too harsly for not always wanting to rub elbows with other saints. I know no one has brought it up as an issue, but for me it is.

Just food for thought!

[Carl62]

I thought I would tell a story – a true story from my youth. I grew up in Provo, Utah a couple of blocks from the BYU campus. My ward was a powerful ward filed with LDS scholars. Hugh Nibley was one of my Sunday school teachers. There was also a rather odd old man in our ward that rarely came to church and if he did he only came to sacrament meeting. Priesthood in those days was early Sunday morning.

Sometimes when this old guy would attend testimony meeting he would bear his testimony – that often took up an hour or more. As a youth I thought of the old guy as boring and do not recall anything he ever said. I never listened. Once in a while the Aaronic Priesthood would take sacrament to this old guy that seemed to me to be healthy enough to come to church. At the time, I did not understand why we bothered with the old guy. Then as old guys do – he died.

His funeral ended up being kind of a big deal and President Hugh B. Brown (then in the 1st Presidency) came as the main speaker at the funeral. Because Brother Brown was kind of a mentor and friend of mine – I not only attended the funeral (priest at the time) but I took a date. A young lady I wanted to impress with my friends in high places kind of thing. And in case anyone is wondering – no, the young lady was not that impressed – with me. But let’s get back to the important part of the story.

President Brown talked about the old guy in his talk – they were close and the old guy had a profound influence in the life of President Brown. But when I knew the old guy – he did not even have a calling – how could such a boring guy have a profound effect on an Apostle of G-d? During President Brown’s talk he said something that deeply touched me – Brother Brown testified that this old guy had a perfect knowledge of Jesus Christ. At that moment the spirit bore witness to me the full extent of that testimony. Old Brother Harrison had conversed with the L-rd as had Moses, Joseph Smith and many other prophets. But I only knew Brother Harrison as a boring old nobody that seldom came to church – I did not think such a thing possible. And in all my righteousness – I had never been blessed to anything close to such spiritual greatness – and I was a 100% loyal and faithful attender of every church meeting offered.

The moral of this story – not everyone that attends church knows that much about G-d (myself being the example). And not everyone that is not at church is not there because they are not “worthy” before G-d (Old Brother Harrison being the example).

The Traveler

Beautiful story Traveler!....and VERY true!:)

[Carl62]

Your mother's presence at Church, week after week, might instill confidence and admiration in a young, harried mother who questions why she goes to such efforts every Sunday, or might plant a seed in a young girl's heart that blossoms decades later, when she remembers Sister Carl faithfully attending her meetings, even when she often couldn't see or hear.

If that's the case, then are they going to church because they have a testimony of the gospel or a testimony of my mother? If it's the latter, then they're going for the wrong reasons. If your heart is not in it for the true reasons, it will never last.

[Vort]

If that's the case, then are they going to church because they have a testimony of the gospel or a testimony of my mother? If it's the latter, then they're going for the wrong reasons. If your heart is not in it for the true reasons, it will never last.

But Carl, we learn to walk by crawling first. To say "How DARE you leech your pathetic 'testimony' off the actions of my mother!" ignores the fact that all of us start out depending on others. There is no shame or evil in this. Yes, people need to grow to the point that they don't depend on everyone else for their testimony -- but guess what? That's how the Lord set up his Church. He does not condemn us for our weakness; rather, he nurtures us and puts us in a position to grow.

Do we want to help with that growth? Do we want to be an example to the unbeliever and strengthen the feeble knees? The Lord told Peter, "When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." He didn't launch into a discourse about how people need to quit leaning on each other's actions.

[The_Phoenix]

If that's the case, then are they going to church because they have a testimony of the gospel or a testimony of my mother? If it's the latter, then they're going for the wrong reasons. If your heart is not in it for the true reasons, it will never last.

I don't know that that is a fair assumption, this is how children learn. By example; By example; By example.

[Carl62]

But Carl, we learn to walk by crawling first. To say "How DARE you leech your pathetic 'testimony' off the actions of my mother!" ignores the fact that all of us start out depending on others. There is no shame or evil in this. Yes, people need to grow to the point that they don't depend on everyone else for their testimony -- but guess what? That's how the Lord set up his Church. He does not condemn us for our weakness; rather, he nurtures us and puts us in a position to grow.

Do we want to help with that growth? Do we want to be an example to the unbeliever and strengthen the feeble knees? The Lord told Peter, "When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." He didn't launch into a discourse about how people need to quit leaning on each other's actions.

I have NEVER in my 30+ years of being a member of this church ever heard of somebody going to church on a steady basis based strictly on seeing someone sitting in a church pew and even having their testimony based on that one person! The whole thing sounds absolutely ludicrous to say the least! And to say that my mother should go to church and just sit there not understanding what's being said all because there's the hope that one day someone will be "inspired" to attend more because of simply watching her be there is outrageous! Again, if somebody bases their sole reason for attending church merely based on watching an old woman sitting in church IS DOING IT FOR THE WRONG REASON AND WILL NOT LAST! Like the scriptures say, you cannnot build a house with sand as the foundation.

[Guest]

Carl, have you done anything to help your mother hear in church besides petitioning the leadership? Would some of those headphones that block out noise so you can hear the TV work?

Or, as one of my favorite sayings goes, "Have you prayed about it as much as you've talked about it?"

[Carl62]

I don't know that that is a fair assumption, this is how children learn. By example; By example; By example.

Sure example plays a part in it, but it's not the only thing. Far from it! There's education, communication, discipline, love, guidance, and many, many other things. If it was based on example only, then the children would get very little, if anything, out of it. All the ingredients needs to be together in order for it to work with children.

[sister_in_faith]

We need to remember that this is a has a very personal component for Carl. Yes, it is true that someone could be inspired by seeing someone sitting in church even tho they can't hear, but we need to remember that we are talking about Carl's mother, and I think that he feels that it is unfair to her that she is not being cared for by the members in her ward. They are allowing her to just sit in silence (basically) for long periods of time even though they have asked for an accommodation for her disability and seem to be being disregarded. I understand (if he isn't aware of the listening inhancing devices) him not knowing what to do, but I would think he would have some sort of chain of command where he can ask others what he should do to help her, rather than just letting her sit there. There are so many church resources for the disabled, if he would just ask, they would send him the needed equipment. I see a lack of love and caring, allowing her to suffer.

I am sorry Carl, and I hope this gets resolved soon. For the others, please be sensitive to Carl's point of view here. This is very hard for him, and he is frustrated.

[Guest]

I see people trying to figure out what efforts have been made and what else can be done, and Carl being a little evasive.

[Carl62]

Carl, have you done anything to help your mother hear in church besides petitioning the leadership? Would some of those headphones that block out noise so you can hear the TV work?

This is EXACTLY what I brought up (more than once actually) to a member of the bishopric when I got the "well, we'll see what we can do" response which turned out to be.....no response. I find it interesting that this couldn't be done, considering that the people who are in the Spanish section of our ward have these very same headphones for interpretation reasons.

[sister_in_faith]

And for those of you who are still unsympathetic to those with disabilites (or who don't understand, and would like to), try putting on a pair of ear muffs, or wearing some thick glasses that blur your vision for a few hours and try to go about your daily lives. It is a lot harder and more frustrating than you might think.

We should support those with disabilites and try to do everything we can to help ease their suffering.

[Vort]

This is EXACTLY what I brought up (more than once actually) to a member of the bishopric when I got the "well, we'll see what we can do" response which turned out to be.....no response. I find it interesting that this couldn't be done, considering that the people who are in the Spanish section of our ward have these very same headphones for interpretation reasons.

Carl, have you ever been a bishop? Ever served in a bishopric? Ever observed them closely to get a feel for their calling? You are quick to condemn the bishopric for not being responsive enough to your needs and those of your mother. How do you know they have not tried? For that matter, how do you know that in the crush of things needing to be done, they forgot about noise-cancelling headphones?

You could perhaps gently remind them, maybe by asking how things are progressing. You could perhaps take some positive steps yourself to resolve the problem by looking into some noise-cancelling headphones yourself and seeing if you can get them, or at least recommend them to the bishopric.

Or you could just complain anonymously on some discussion list about those dumb old bishopric members.

[Guest]

So what you want is for the church to provide those for her?

[RMGuy]

Suggestion? How much are a pair of noise cancelling headphones?

-RM

[Guest mormonmusic]

With respect, mormonmusic, you could also say that your wife doesn't clean because it bores her and she doesn't feel like it. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

What a terribly misplaced analogy. I shared something deeply important to me at personal risk in my personal married life, and you draw this questionable analogy with a disconnected topic. Eowyn, you usually make really good posts, but for this one, I'm actualy quite disillusioned. I'm surprised you would use something like that to make a point, quite honestly. And putting hte words "with respect" in front of it doesn't ease the surprise any either.

Edited December 9, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Guest]

You know, I am really sorry you feel that way but I was only "using" it because it honestly seemed very much the same to me. I added "with respect" to try and make that clear. I'm sorry it seemed like a personal attack. I was trying to use something relate-able to clarify my point of view. It doesn't seem misplaced to me, but it sounds like I miscalculated. I apologize.

[sister_in_faith]

What a terribly misplaced analogy. I shared something deeply important to me at personal risk in my personal married life, and you draw this lame analogy with a disconnected topic. Eowyn, you usually make really good posts, but for this one, I'm actualy quite disillusioned. I'm surprised you would use something like that to make a point, quite honestly. And putting hte words "with respect" in front of it doesn't ease the surprise any either.

I have to agree that the post about music's wife was in bad taste. I'm sorry Eowyn, cuz I love you, but that just wasn't very nice!!!

A lot of us share some pretty personal things on here, and I know that I kind of expect people on here to respect my feelings. Even tho it is an anonymous internet forum, people should still try to respect others.

Edit: then after I post I see Eowyn appologized so I didn't even need to post this... I'll leave it up, cuz it's my opinion and maybe we can all learn from it!!!

love you music... love you eowyn!

[Guest mormonmusic]

...I was only "using" it because it honestly seemed very much the same to me. I added "with respect" to try and make that clear. I'm sorry it seemed like a personal attack. I was trying to use something relate-able to clarify my point of view. It doesn't seem misplaced to me, but it sounds like I miscalculated. I apologize.

I didn't think it was a personal attack, but it disturbed me for another reason...However, apology fully accepted and appreciated. Thanks...

Edited December 10, 2011 by mormonmusic

[jayanna]

I was just thinking about an older sister in our ward. Her children are all grown and she has grandchildren, her husband is a Patriarch, and to my knowledge she has no calling. She has a mother who is now wheelchair bound. This mother's mind is not wholly there anymore, she has Alzheimer's I think. Anyway, there they are sitting together (Patriarch is also the organ player) dressed and smiling as always every Sunday. The daughter painstakinlgy prepares her mother for Sacrament every Sunday, even though she is getting older herself. She does it every Sunday as if her mother were completely aware of everything around her. Here is the thing, I know they are doing it not just to be obedient, they are doing it because they love the Lord Jesus Christ. They want to show the Lord that they love Him in return, and this is one way they can do that. I love seeing them there every Sunday, I love the quiet calm dignity that they exude. I love the dedication the daughter shows both to the Lord and to her mother, who I am sure is very well pleased with her daughter.

As for you and your mother, I don't know what is best for you, and would not presume to decide for you. I would however like to suggest (as one who has never had her mother at and LDS church with her) that perhaps sitting quietly at church together might be one of the best things to remember later. Sadly, with all the little children that sit around me I rarely get to hear a whole talk myself, but I do get the filling of the cup feeling that I need to help me get through the rest of the week.

I think you and your mother should do what pleases the Lord. Follow your conscience, and do your best.

Oh, and I'm sure that if there were some accomodation that could be made for her and others with her particular challenge, it would be done regardless of the cost to the ward... I have seen mother's rooms piped with sound, and Spanish and sign language translations, and our ward has hearing assistance for many members as well. Some meetings don't even start until the members needs are met.

Edited December 10, 2011 by jayanna

[Leah]

And for those of you who are still unsympathetic to those with disabilites (or who don't understand, and would like to), try putting on a pair of ear muffs, or wearing some thick glasses that blur your vision for a few hours and try to go about your daily lives. It is a lot harder and more frustrating than you might think.

We should support those with disabilites and try to do everything we can to help ease their suffering.

I haven't seen anyone here being "unsympathetic" to those with disabilities. Not in the least.

[MaMeeshkaMow]

Any of you guys get "stuck" in Nursery because your kids will have major fits if you leave? I try to at least make it to Priesthood class but I'm late oftentimes. Do you think I can renew my Temple Recommend? I'm at church for all three hours but I'm stuck in Nursery a lot. I help the workers there.