Article 7: Are Mormons Pentecostal?

[prisonchaplain]

Article 7, which reads: Webelieve in the gift of tongues, revelation, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

I'm curious as to how these gifts are demonstrated in LDS worship. Does anyone ever speak in tongues during meetings? Does it happen during private prayer? When would tongues be interpreted? Is it always the same people, or do most people share these gifts? When tongues & interpretation are public, how is the message treated--as modern revelation? Is it subjected to a doctrinal review?

[Ray]

Tommy,

Speaking for every LDS out there... which I do NOT have authority to do, btw... so I might as well stop right now.

Speaking for myself and the other LDS who taught and explained the concept of speaking in tongues to me, as well as for other LDS who continue to teach and explain the concept of speaking in tongues to other people...

... yeah, that's more like it...

... speaking in tongues refers to the ability to speak in languages... languages other than the native language a person normally develops by growing up or being around other people who speak his/her native language... languages which certain people actually speak... with an ability to speak in those other languages aided by the power of God... either without any formal training or lessons in that language or with a divinely increased capacity to learn to speak those other languages... without which a person would only have their own natural abilities to learn to speak those languages without the power of God.

So, yes, God continues to give us (LDS) the ability to speak in languages... languages other than our own native language... with little or no formal training... when we have no other way to communicate... and this gift is then given by God because God wants us to then be able to communicate... instead of waiting until we learn their language or having Him do everything for us... which is part of becoming as self-reliant as possible... which is the way God wants us all to be.

And btw, I once heard the facts and figures, which I have forgotten for the moment, regarding how quickly and how many languages are translated for each publication of the Ensign magazine (and other Church magazines) each month, as well as how quickly and how many languages are translated during each broadcast of General Conference sessions... and I was very impressed.

But if you think about it, it's amazing, how much we still need God's help... and how much our God has helped us already, to really become "one" with Him. :)

[Maureen]

Speaking in tongues seemed to be common in the 19th century Mormon church. Reading a diary of Zina Huntington Jacobs (an LDS pioneer) she mentioned "speaking in tongues"at a meeting held in someone's home. Here are other examples:

http://www.saintswithouthalos.com/n/tongues.phtml

M.

[prisonchaplain]

Ray, did I understand you to indicate that "speaking in tongues" primarily refers to human languages not native to the speaker?

Also, I seem to read something about "Adamic language." Would this be similar to glossolalia, unknown tongues, or angelic tongues?

Speaking in tongues seemed to be common in the 19th century Mormon church. Reading a diary of Zina Huntington Jacobs (an LDS pioneer) she mentioned "speaking in tongues"at a meeting held in someone's home. Here are other examples:

http://www.saintswithouthalos.com/n/tongues.phtml

M.

WOW. Those sources predate the full-blown Pentecostal revival by about 70 years! The journals read very much like the numerous accounts that I read in turn-of-the-century era Pentecostal church newspapers. Good find, Maureen!

[Ray]

Ray, did I understand you to indicate that "speaking in tongues" primarily refers to human languages not native to the speaker?

Primarily in the sense that all the languages we speak are primarily human, yes. But I wouldn't choose to say what you just said, because it seems you may have missed my idea.

In other words, any language a human speaks is a language of some human who is trying to communicate with some other human, or humans, and when God gives a human the gift of being able to communicate with some other human, or humans, in a language which is not native to the speaker, it is then called a gift from God.

Do you now hear what I am trying to tell you?

Heh, we're speaking the same language and we're still having problems.

Would it help if I spoke another language???

Also, I seem to read something about "Adamic language." Would this be similar to glossolalia, unknown tongues, or angelic tongues?

The term "Adamic language" refers to the language Adam spoke, and God spoke, while in Eden. And that was the language everyone spoke until Babel, when most people then spoke other languages.

And btw, there is nothing unknown but what can be known through some power or gift from God, and if some people speak and don't know what they're saying then how do they know it's from God... by just believing what some other person tells them???

Would you recommend that everyone just do that?

I hope not.

Where anyone believes someone without knowing what he's saying, there are two who I would not believe.

And I wouldn't believe others who are saying, "that is true", without knowing that God did inspire them.

But you can do what you want. We can all do what we want. I'll tell me and all others to ask God.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

The New Testament makes it pretty clear that "the gift of tongues" can refer to simply the ability to speak in another language for the benefit of someone else. Check out Acts 2, especially vv. 3-4, 8, 11. The apostles speaking on the day of Pentecost addressed pilgrims from roughly 17 language groups (see vv. 9-11).

Why was the gift of tongues granted? That Peter and others might preach the gospel to those of other languages. They didn't mumble, stutter, stammer or rattle off unintelligible strings of syllables.

I'm not discounting that their may be tongues of angels or what have you and that there may be some reasons I'm unaware of that would warrant a mortal using those heavenly languages. But as I review the scriptural record, I find that the gift of tongues manifested itself most strongly as speaking different languages.

[Princess3dward]

Article 7, which reads: Webelieve in the gift of tongues, revelation, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

I'm curious as to how these gifts are demonstrated in LDS worship. Does anyone ever speak in tongues during meetings? Does it happen during private prayer? When would tongues be interpreted? Is it always the same people, or do most people share these gifts? When tongues & interpretation are public, how is the message treated--as modern revelation? Is it subjected to a doctrinal review?

I like your questions...

I don't know if it is just me or what..

But you always ask good questions..

and they seem sincere!

I also read Maureen's response..

and I love how she anwsers questions!

I just thought I would like to share!

[prisonchaplain]

Primarily in the sense that all the languages we speak are primarily human, yes. In other words, any language a human speaks is a language of some human who is trying to communicate with some other human, or humans, and when God gives a human the gift of being able to communicate with some other human, or humans, in a language which is not native to the speaker, it is then called a gift from God.

Do you now hear what I am trying to tell you?

I think you are saying, "Yes, the gift of tongues is primarily human speech, meant to be used in speaking with other humans." Do I understand you correctly?

The term "Adamic language" refers to the language Adam spoke, and God spoke, while in Eden. And that was the language everyone spoke until Babel, when most people then spoke other languages.

My question is, do Mormons ever speak in the Adamic language? If so, when and for what purpose?

And btw, there is nothing unknown but what can be known through some power or gift from God, and if some people speak and don't know what they're saying then how do they know it's from God... by just believing what some other person tells them??? Would you recommend that everyone just do that?

I hope not.

Are you asking my how I know, when I speak in tongues, that it is from God? If so, to use your terminology, I have a testimony that it is so, and the promise from Luke 11, that when we seek God for good gifts, He'll not give us evil ones.

[prisonchaplain]

The New Testament makes it pretty clear that "the gift of tongues" can refer to simply the ability to speak in another language for the benefit of someone else. Check out Acts 2, especially vv. 3-4, 8, 11. The apostles speaking on the day of Pentecost addressed pilgrims from roughly 17 language groups (see vv. 9-11).

In Acts 2 we can certainly see tongues as a sign of the Holy Spirit. And yes, in this instance, the languages are human dialects. However, in the other two passages that make overt reference to tongues, there is no indication that they were used for communication. However, they were a sign--especially in Acts 10:44-46. The Jews knew the Gentiles were filled with the Spirit because they spoke in other tongues.

Why was the gift of tongues granted? That Peter and others might preach the gospel to those of other languages. They didn't mumble, stutter, stammer or rattle off unintelligible strings of syllables.

While Acts 2 is the first episode of Spirit-baptism, it is not the only one. In order to discern patterns, that which is normative should be repeated. While tongues are mentioned in three of the five episodes, and hinted at in a fourth, only in Acts 2 are the tongues meant for public communication. In the other cases, they serve more as a sign that the infilling is genuine.

In other passages, mostly in the Pauline letters, tongues is useful also for private prayer, to directly commune with God. It also can signal in public worship that God is about to speak. In such cases it is followed by interpretation.

I'm not discounting that their may be tongues of angels or what have you and that there may be some reasons I'm unaware of that would warrant a mortal using those heavenly languages. But as I review the scriptural record, I find that the gift of tongues manifested itself most strongly as speaking different languages.

If I'm not mistaken, Acts 2 is the only passage in which the tongues given by the Holy Spirit are explicitly human languages.

I like your questions...I don't know if it is just me or what..But you always ask good questions..and they seem sincere! I just thought I would like to share!

Thank you for the kind words. By the way, I'm getting from Ray and Apostleknight that when LDS speak in tongues, it is human languages they are speaking, and primarily for direct communication with others. Does this mean that it is mostly missionaries, or those in urban settings who encounter non-English speakers? Has anyone here experienced this gift, that can share how it was for you?

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Article 7, which reads: Webelieve in the gift of tongues, revelation, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

I'm curious as to how these gifts are demonstrated in LDS worship. Does anyone ever speak in tongues during meetings? Does it happen during private prayer? When would tongues be interpreted? Is it always the same people, or do most people share these gifts? When tongues & interpretation are public, how is the message treated--as modern revelation? Is it subjected to a doctrinal review?

I like your questions...

I don't know if it is just me or what..

But you always ask good questions..

and they seem sincere!

I also read Maureen's response..

and I love how she anwsers questions!

I just thought I would like to share!

Thank you for your quote of Tommy's quote again, Desire'.

Reading your post and his quote again helped me to see some more ways to answer his questions. :)

I'm curious as to how these gifts are demonstrated in LDS worship.

Even though there have been and I expect will be some variations, I've seen it go something like this:

A man or woman spoke in a language other than his/her own native language better than he/she claimed was his/her own ability to do on his/her own... and the persons hearing that man or woman speak knew what that man or woman was saying... either because that man or woman was then speaking in the native language of the persons he/she was speaking to, or because there was an interpreter present who was able to translate from one language to another.

Does anyone ever speak in tongues during meetings?

Yes, I have heard people speak in a language other than their own native language, and after they spoke they usually said something about how they had just spoken in that language better than they could have done on their own.

Does it happen during private prayer?

Well, it did happen once to me. I once tried to speak in Hebrew while speaking to God privately, and I felt sure that I spoke it, and I still feel sure that I spoke it, better than I could have done so on my own.

When would tongues be interpreted?

When there was or would be someone present who didn't understand the language spoken.

Is it always the same people, or do most people share these gifts?

In my experience, once someone says they have received that gift they then become one of those people.

When tongues & interpretation are public, how is the message treated--as modern revelation?

It is usually treated as one person saying something to some other person or people, with some people sharing what they think about that experience. Some say it's from God, some say they don't know, and some say we all should ask God.

Is it subjected to a doctrinal review?

Heh, No, I just automatically think that God has just spoken. I really don't need to ask Him.

j/k... ... that was a joke, people... of course I ask God to know what is true...

... sheesh... will some people ever learn???

[Dr T]

Hey P.C.,

I'm familiar with the concept of speaking in toungues but have not done any serious looking into it. If you have not already answered this, I would be interested in hearing what your take on "speaking in tougues" is. What is its purpose? You indicated that it is "a sign that the infilling is genuine." Do you think that if you do not speak in toungues then your "X" (fill in what it signifies here being "more genuine") is less genuine? Salvation for example? Closeness to God? Etc?

Thank you for your thoughts,

Dr. T

[Guest ApostleKnight]

PC, you asked if LDS members ever speak in the Adamic tongue. I've never heard of it happening (doesn't mean it doesn't happen). I don't know what the purpose would be. Anyone else?

[Brother Dorsey]

I'd like to throw my 3 cents worth into the thread if I may......

I was always taught that a person of whatever faith can be given the gift of tongues if it be for God's purpose only....not the person who recieves it....I'll give you an example that actually happened to a close friend of mine about 2 years ago...a firefighter.....his company was called to a fire in an apartment complex, the smoke was thick as they went in after people, he pulled out a woman who was screaming at him in a language absolutely unknown to him...she was pleading with him and he had no idea what it was she wanted or was saying....but after a few moments he began to understand what she was saying, he said she started to speak english and he understood her completely....she was telling him her 2 year old was in the apartment and she wanted him to go get the child. He said he answered her in english and calmed her down and went in to get the child.....this may not seem strange but it was what happened after he retrieved the child....a firefighter and two paramedics standing around him watching this verbal exchange asked him what language that was he was speaking to her...it was not English.....in my humble opinion he was given the gift of tongues for that moment so he could save that child. He was given a gift so he could do the Lords errand...I believe this is exactly what the gift and interpretation of tongues is.....

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Well said Brother Dorsey.

In an unrelated vein, I see no reason for someone to speak in an unknown tongue in a church meeting if no one else can understand it. Like when people bear their testimony in the language they spoke on their mission...what, am I supposed to say amen after you do when I don't know what the heck you said? Just a pet peeve of mine. :) If it's not in an LDS Church, and someone speaks in a "tongue of angels" but no one understands, it's pointless too, IMHO.

[roman]

Well said Brother Dorsey.

In an unrelated vein, I see no reason for someone to speak in an unknown tongue in a church meeting if no one else can understand it. Like when people bear their testimony in the language they spoke on their mission...what, am I supposed to say amen after you do when I don't know what the heck you said? Just a pet peeve of mine. :) If it's not in an LDS Church, and someone speaks in a "tongue of angels" but no one understands, it's pointless too, IMHO.

Unless of course they are speaking only to God

[lisajo]

I'd like to throw my 3 cents worth into the thread if I may......

I was always taught that a person of whatever faith can be given the gift of tongues if it be for God's purpose only....not the person who recieves it....I'll give you an example that actually happened to a close friend of mine about 2 years ago...a firefighter.....his company was called to a fire in an apartment complex, the smoke was thick as they went in after people, he pulled out a woman who was screaming at him in a language absolutely unknown to him...she was pleading with him and he had no idea what it was she wanted or was saying....but after a few moments he began to understand what she was saying, he said she started to speak english and he understood her completely....she was telling him her 2 year old was in the apartment and she wanted him to go get the child. He said he answered her in english and calmed her down and went in to get the child.....this may not seem strange but it was what happened after he retrieved the child....a firefighter and two paramedics standing around him watching this verbal exchange asked him what language that was he was speaking to her...it was not English.....in my humble opinion he was given the gift of tongues for that moment so he could save that child. He was given a gift so he could do the Lords errand...I believe this is exactly what the gift and interpretation of tongues is.....

I liked your exlpanation on this made it more clear, I some times also think speaking in tongues has also to do with a spirt giving you the right thing to say? Maybe ya know missionary work? but i have always been taught like you say given the gift to speak other lan. when needed, our missionarys learn how to speak lan. so fast at the MCT, my husband did not catch on To german there but as soon as he was in Germany he could speak it fluently,

Thanks again relly helpful for others

[TXRed]

<div class='quotemain'>

Well said Brother Dorsey.

In an unrelated vein, I see no reason for someone to speak in an unknown tongue in a church meeting if no one else can understand it. Like when people bear their testimony in the language they spoke on their mission...what, am I supposed to say amen after you do when I don't know what the heck you said? Just a pet peeve of mine. :) If it's not in an LDS Church, and someone speaks in a "tongue of angels" but no one understands, it's pointless too, IMHO.

Unless of course they are speaking only to God

God put me here on this earth, HE sent HIS son to be my Savior, . . . . . . I think HE knows me pretty well, and I think HE understands the language HE gave me.

I have a friend who told me that she speaks in her own "prayer" language and that her church "taught" her how to speak it. Nosey that I am, I ask how they taught her. She said that they told her to just start talking baby talk like "ga ga, goo goo, dada, etc." and then, it would just kind of "flow" from you.

That friend is a good Christian woman and very sincere, and I know that the Lord listens to her prayers, but I still don't really understand the need for what she described.

I believe in prayer, and I believe in all of the Gifts of God. Prayer needs to be with sincerity, intent, and faith that we will receive answers. The answers are just not always the way we think they are going to be.

God knows our hearts, our intent, and our sincerity, and I believe we don't have to worry about the language, because HE knows that, too.

Peace,

TXRed

[prisonchaplain]

Hey P.C., I'm familiar with the concept of speaking in tongues but have not done any serious looking into it. If you have not already answered this, I would be interested in hearing what your take on "speaking in tougues" is. What is its purpose? You indicated that it is "a sign that the infilling is genuine." Do you think that if you do not speak in toungues then your "X" (fill in what it signifies here being "more genuine") is less genuine? Salvation for example? Closeness to God? Etc? Thank you for your thoughts, Dr. T

Dr. T, you so often ask questions that get beyond the right/wrong, A vs. B--and go for ones that get at the heart of relationship (i.e. between God with his people, and his people with each other).

To your questions:

1. Classic Pentecostals, like myself, believe that the pattern of Holy Spirit baptisms is such that tongues was a consistent sign to the New Testament believers that those claiming to receive the Holy Spirit really had. Acts 10:44-46 is the most obvious case. The Jewish Christians accepted that the Gentiles had been filled with the spirit specifically because they had spoken in tongues.

2. We do NOT believe that Christians who have not spoken in tongues are WITHOUT the Spirit. Rather, that there is an even deeper, more empowering walk available to those who will seek and request it.

3. The benefits of Spirit baptism include: a greater ability to live out the fruits of the Spirit (not comparing Pentecostals to non-Pentecostals, but rather comparing myself before and after receiving the infilling), the ability to pray directly from my spirit--especially when I don't know what to say, and just a greater sense of the presence of the Spirit in my day to day living.

One final note: Classic Pentecostals are definitely a minority on this doctrine of tongues as the initial physical evidence of Spirit baptism. It is not a doctrine that will bar or guarantee heaven. On the other hand, we do believe God has blessed us for our faithful proclammation of this, and our unwillingness to compromise the teaching in order to fit in better with our bretheren from Charismatic and independent fellowships.

In an unrelated vein, I see no reason for someone to speak in an unknown tongue in a church meeting if no one else can understand it.

Whenever someone speaks out in an unknown tongue, during a Pentecostal service, an interpretation follows in the venacular. The gift of tongues simply serves as notice that a message will follow. Why God just doesn't always have someone give a prophetic word (a message in the venacular--without the tongues), I do not know. Yet, Paul spells out tongues and interpretation as happening in church services (1 Corinthians 12).

I have a friend who told me that she speaks in her own "prayer" language and that her church "taught" her how to speak it. Nosey that I am, I ask how they taught her. She said that they told her to just start talking baby talk like "ga ga, goo goo, dada, etc." and then, it would just kind of "flow" from you.

I have heard of this happening, and I condemn it. "Teaching tongues" is foolish, and can be dangerous. It can destroy faith, and repel people from the real thing.

"Teaching tongues" falls in the same track as "faith promoting" urban legends, imho. People willing to repeat rumors or outright lies, because they seem to bolster the Church. People convincing others they've "received the Pentecostal baptism" in order to garner their loyalty to the movement.

See, there, my friend. You got me to preaching!

I believe in prayer, and I believe in all of the Gifts of God. Prayer needs to be with sincerity, intent, and faith that we will receive answers. The answers are just not always the way we think they are going to be. God knows our hearts, our intent, and our sincerity, and I believe we don't have to worry about the language, because HE knows that, too.

I'd just note that if God says, "Here. I have a gift for you, if you really want it. It will help you relate with me better, and follow me with greater effectiveness."

If you respond, "Well, yes, perhaps. But it's not really necessary, so I'm not interested." ...

[LionHeart]

There is one incident I heard about. This took place back in the 1930s. A man was passing through an indian reservation and attended a sunday service there. These indians were all converted to the Church however, only one or two of them spoke english. There were also a few caucasion people there.

So this man was called on to speak because he was an elder. He gave the speech he was impressed to give and then sat down. After the meeting, one of the indians talked to him and told him that those indians there who could not speak english, heard the talk in their own language; and that he, even though he could speak english, also heard it in his native language. While those whose native language was english, heard it in english.

L.H.

[Dr T]

Thank you for your reply P.C.,

I am going to bed. Too tired to interact with it tonight. I'll reread it tomorrow.

Thanks again,

Dr. T

[roman]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

Well said Brother Dorsey.

In an unrelated vein, I see no reason for someone to speak in an unknown tongue in a church meeting if no one else can understand it. Like when people bear their testimony in the language they spoke on their mission...what, am I supposed to say amen after you do when I don't know what the heck you said? Just a pet peeve of mine. :) If it's not in an LDS Church, and someone speaks in a "tongue of angels" but no one understands, it's pointless too, IMHO.

Unless of course they are speaking only to God

God put me here on this earth, HE sent HIS son to be my Savior, . . . . . . I think HE knows me pretty well, and I think HE understands the language HE gave me.

I have a friend who told me that she speaks in her own "prayer" language and that her church "taught" her how to speak it. Nosey that I am, I ask how they taught her. She said that they told her to just start talking baby talk like "ga ga, goo goo, dada, etc." and then, it would just kind of "flow" from you.

That friend is a good Christian woman and very sincere, and I know that the Lord listens to her prayers, but I still don't really understand the need for what she described.

I believe in prayer, and I believe in all of the Gifts of God. Prayer needs to be with sincerity, intent, and faith that we will receive answers. The answers are just not always the way we think they are going to be.

God knows our hearts, our intent, and our sincerity, and I believe we don't have to worry about the language, because HE knows that, too.

Peace,

TXRed

I can not dispute a single thing you say---I agree BUT sometimes our need or desire or pain or joy is so deep that human language is insufficient and then the Holy Spirit will begin to speak thru us to communicate for us----as in deep calling out to deep

[Ray]

Since it hasn't been pointed out yet, and I think someone should bring up this point, without pointing fingers at anyone in particular, there are also people in this world who think it is God who is giving or has inspired them to speak in an "unknown" tongue (or language) when in fact they are inspired by Satan, and what they are saying is not inspired by God but some other power in this world.

Or in other words, just because someone thinks God inspires them, or has inspired them, does not mean they're inspired by God, and there are other forces in the unseen world who can inspire us to do what they want.

There. I have said it. If you're offended, it's not my fault.

I am very simply saying some "gifts" are from God, and some are really not from God.

[Dr T]

Hi Ray,

The quote below (from your last post) is the same type of thing we spend a lot of wasted time on earlier.

Or in other words, just because someone thinks God inspires them, or has inspired them, does not mean they're inspired by God, and there are other forces in the unseen world who can inspire us to do what they want.

You just kept saying, "God only gives truth and I know it is true because I asked God" type of reponse. I don't want to get into it again because it will only go around in a circle. I just wanted to point that out.

Dr. T

[Ray]

Doc,

If you think it is simply a waste of time for someone to say:

I have learned the truth from God...

or

I am trying to learn from God...

or

nobody can know what is true without faith or an assurance from God...

or

anyone can know what is true with faith or an assurance from God...

... regardless of whatever anyone else thinks...

... then that's what you think... and it's not what I think... it is not a waste of my time to hear that.

I think we all should say that when anyone else wants to know or understand what we think, and when I hear that sincerely from others I know they will learn what God thinks.

But to each their own, Doc. You can learn any way that you want to. :)

[Dr T]

I'm sorry if I implied that saying that type of statement as "a waste of time" Ray. I didn't mean that. I meant our conversation just kept going around and around. That's all. Sorry for my miscommunication.

Dr. T