Aog Look At Cojclds - Revisit Of Question #3

[Princess3dward]

Darn right!!!!!

Heavenly Father would like my brother trying to get me to stray from the streight and narrow!

ok, then what's you're example?

Are you saying I'm "trying to get you to stray from the streight and narrow!" by saying the Bible is true?

Josh B)

Nope. Just the lying part.

The bible is true AS FAR AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY!

[JoshuaFKon]

Nope. Just the lying part.

The bible is true AS FAR AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY!

And where is it not "translated correctly"?

Josh B)

[Princess3dward]

Nope. Just the lying part.

The bible is true AS FAR AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY!

And where is it not "translated correctly"?

Josh B)

Where ever it doesn't make sense.

You KNOW HOW God is... he is fair..

but not all verses in the bible say how God really is..

I don't have my bible here...

It is at seminary,

so I can't get any specific examples... but I know another LDS member can.

I also think that if you looked up the scriptures at lds.org and typed in a verse, you MIGHT find some corrections made that clerify it better.

[JoshuaFKon]

Where ever it doesn't make sense.

You KNOW HOW God is... he is fair..

but not all verses in the bible say how God really is..

I don't have my bible here...

It is at seminary,

so I can't get any specific examples... but I know another LDS member can.

I also think that if you looked up the scriptures at lds.org and typed in a verse, you MIGHT find some corrections made that clerify it better.

And what doesn't make sense?

Josh B)

[Princess3dward]

Where ever it doesn't make sense.

You KNOW HOW God is... he is fair..

but not all verses in the bible say how God really is..

I don't have my bible here...

It is at seminary,

so I can't get any specific examples... but I know another LDS member can.

I also think that if you looked up the scriptures at lds.org and typed in a verse, you MIGHT find some corrections made that clerify it better.

And what doesn't make sense?

Josh B)

I REALLY don't have my bible here...

But I learned about it in sunday school

We are doing the OT.

Look in the OT then.

[JoshuaFKon]

I REALLY don't have my bible here...

But I learned about it in sunday school

We are doing the OT.

Look in the OT then.

Ok....I'll tell you what....I'll wait untill you have your Bible again.

Or you could use a Bible online.

Josh B)

[Princess3dward]

I REALLY don't have my bible here...

But I learned about it in sunday school

We are doing the OT.

Look in the OT then.

Ok....I'll tell you what....I'll wait untill you have your Bible again.

Or you could use a Bible online.

Josh B)

Mine is marked. :)

I will try the online one though.

Ya.. I don't know how to work it. lol.

Seminary starts again on tuesday, but I can get A bible tomorrow.

[prisonchaplain]

Okay, that's a clear answer.

Now how does this apply to the trinity? In other words, when you say God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit are of the same essence, do you mean:

1) They are "made of the same stuff?"

I may be straining gnats here, but it can't be number one, because God was not made.

2) They simply share a divine nature of perfect goodness?

They certainly do, but their unity goes beyond that. They truly are one being.

3) Other?

Yeah, other. They are three distinct persons, yet one God, one being. We do know two distinguishing characteristics between them and us, even three:

1. They made us, and were not themselves made

2. They are indeed perfect in their goodness

3. They are indeed all-powerful

[Outshined]

I dissagree they are true contradictions...(at least in the OT) and I don't see any "doctrinal" contradictions.

I personally don't consider them serious contradictions either, in the Bible or any of the Standard Works. They are about as valid as any of the problems critics claim to be in the LDS scriptures.

It has been said that people are less likely to scrutinize their own beliefs as critically as the beliefs of others.

[JoshuaFKon]

I personally don't consider them serious contradictions either, in the Bible or any of the Standard Works.

I was told "The whole Bible contradicts itself"

They are about as valid as any of the problems critics claim to be in the LDS scriptures.

I wouldn't go that far...

It has been said that people are less likely to scrutinize their own beliefs as critically as the beliefs of others.

I guess that could account for both of our beliefs....

Josh B)

[Ray]

Nope. Just the lying part.

The bible is true AS FAR AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY!

And where is it not "translated correctly"?

Josh B)

It's not "where" Josh, it's "how", or at least that is what I believe.

Or in other words, the Bible is the "word of God" as long it's interpreted correctly.

Do you know what I mean when I say "word of God"???

Are you interpreting me correctly?

[Ray]

I was told "The whole Bible contradicts itself"

I think what was meant was that it can appear to contradict itself if it's not interpreted correctly.

[Traveler]

PC: You are such a good guy - I appreciate your efforts to bring a better understanding to the table. I do not want to make this long to read but there are a couple of concepts that I have that are in conflict with your concepts. But this conflict is not deadly - and could be a friendly conflict pending how each of us uses this conflict to understand each other.

First - Creation: As a scientist and a devout believer in G-d: I believe in creation of this physical expanding universe. I believe G-d did it and that we can call everything in this universe physical. There are two parts from a perspective of someone living on earth. All the things on the earth is one and everything else which is referred to as the heavens (the sun, moon, planets, galaxies, black holes, dark matter, and things we have not conceived - both seen and unseen) is the other. This is not to be confused with the “heavens” that is the realm of G-d. That was not part of the creation in Genesis.

The Genesis creation is all about the physical universe and its beginnings. When in this physical creation, reference is made to image and likeness I believe we are talking about a physical relationship. Man is the only “thing” in the image and likeness of G-d - even though G-d pronounced all of creation “good” and the fact that G-d the Father himself is “good”. Only man is in the image and likeness of G-d. The spirit of man was not part of this physical creation and was with G-d in his realm when this universe was created.

Second - Fall: I believe there were two falls. The first fall was the fall of Lucifer and his angles that became Satan and his devils. They were removed from the realm of G-d and have complete access to this universe. I believe when man went to the moon he could still be tempted by Satan. Even though the moon is in the heavens it is not in the realm of G-d the Father.

The second fall is the fall of Adam and Eve and that fall affected all man. It appears to me that Eden was a unique place where Adam and Eve lived without possibility of death, some access to G-d and yet Satan had some access in order to tempt them. When Adam and Eve fell they were sent out of the Eden garden to this physical earth as we know it. I think that at the same time all men (spirits children of the Father) became fallen as well and went to reside in a realm separated from the Father’s. Jesus, the Son of G-d the Father, and the Holy Ghost, were the only ones that are spirit children of the Father that did not fall but they left the realm of the Father and came with the spirits of man. Jesus is the only one that has access to the Father and the Father’s realm in order to mediate in behalf of all men. In the book of Job when Satan comes to the throne of G-d it was not the Father in his realm but Jesus, who is now the G-d of this universe on the throne of his realm surrounded by the unborn spirits of man - though fallen from the realm of the Father still unsoiled and unborn on earth.

Please note: You may not agree with my beliefs and my understandings but they are clear and straight forward. I do not have to play with strange and odd definitions of words and things to explain them.

Now I come to one thing I do not understand. Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of G-d. Their physical bodies were not subject to death and could not die until after their fall. All other men are created with physical bodies that are subject to death and able to die. We were not created the same (as Adam and Eve) and I do not know how to reconcile this fact with scripture. And exactly what is the image and likeness of G-d and what is not in the image and likeness of G-d except to understand that our mortal physical bodies are similar to and a model of G-d the Father’s glorious immortal physical body in the same way the Adam and Eve’s amortal physical bodies are similar to and a model of the Father’s. Any other explanation of image and likeness makes no sense at all because some men live good and upright lives and some don’t and I have to believe it is not because of G-d or anything G-d has ever done or will do including his creation of man in his image and likeness. The choice is man’s and man’s alone to live good and upright or not and G-d did not create that part of man that makes that choice - G-d is not responsible in any way for man making the choice beyond G-d enticing each individual man to chose the good and upright and Satan enticing each individual man to reject the good and upright.

The final point concerns G-d being the creator and man being a different “created” species. I do not see things in this manner. G-d the Father is an everlasting being. He was not part of the creation (beginning) of this universe - he was an everlasting being before this universe was begun or created. I believe that it is the destiny of man to be resurrected to everlasting life that is everlasting in every sense of understanding as G-d’s life is everlasting. I also believe to deny this great truth is the essence of denying the Christ and his mission and atonement.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Hi Traveler,

I know you posted your last to P.C. One of the things you asserted was that spirits were already with God before creation. You didn't give any references or try to explain how you know this. How did you come to that conclusion? If your response is going to be "it was revealed to the prophet" please point out the documentation for its review.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Ray]

Hi Traveler,

I know you posted your last to P.C. One of the things you asserted was that spirits were already with God before creation. You didn't give any references or try to explain how you know this. How did you come to that conclusion? If your response is going to be "it was revealed to the prophet" please point out the documentation for its review.

Thanks,

Dr. T

I don't know what Traveler's response is going to be, and I don't know how he learned that, but if YOU want to know how you can know that you can start by searching the scriptures.

... and you can do that by clicking on this

... and asking God to assure you of the truth, including asking how you should interpret the scriptures.

[JoshuaFKon]

And exactly what is the image and likeness of G-d and what is not in the image and likeness of G-d except to understand that our mortal physical bodies are similar to and a model of G-d the Father’s glorious immortal physical body in the same way the Adam and Eve’s amortal physical bodies are similar to and a model of the Father’s.

I basically agree with everything you said, but I am unclear about one thing - Are you saying that being created in the "image" of God refers only to our physical bodies? It is my belief that this refers to our "spirit" being.

(1) God is a Spirit

John 4:24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

(2) God also created them "male and female" in his image...Obvoiusly this cannot be taken literally.

Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

(3) "human" remains have been found from over 6000 thousand years ago...How is this possible if Adam (The first man created in God's image) was not "created" yet?

It is my belief, (which is in line which ancient commentaters such as Nahmanides) That as it says it Gen. 2:7 "[And the Eternal God] breathed into his nostrils the neshama of life and the adam became a living soul."

I believe it is this "neshama" of life which seperates us from the animanls and makes us "in the image of God" not the physical form of our bodies!

Josh B)

[prisonchaplain]

It has been said that people are less likely to scrutinize their own beliefs as critically as the beliefs of others.

And the opposite and equally true corallary is that we are much more willing to consider explanations that require some explaining within our own faith tradition, but to be skeptical of those offered by others.

I have often said that the harder it is to explain one's particular belief the less likely it is to be valid. However, another truism is that there's an easy answer for everything--and it's usually wrong.

Oh. Sorry. I thought this was the exemplars of thought string.

[Traveler]

Hi Traveler,

I know you posted your last to P.C. One of the things you asserted was that spirits were already with God before creation. You didn't give any references or try to explain how you know this. How did you come to that conclusion? If your response is going to be "it was revealed to the prophet" please point out the documentation for its review.

Thanks,

Dr. T

Book of Mormon - Alma 13:3-5

Pearl of Great Price - Abrahma 3:22-26

If it could have any influence in convincing you (not just for fun) I could dig up some ancient documents from the Dead Sea Scrolls and other ancient documents as well

The Traveler

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And exactly what is the image and likeness of G-d and what is not in the image and likeness of G-d except to understand that our mortal physical bodies are similar to and a model of G-d the Father’s glorious immortal physical body in the same way the Adam and Eve’s amortal physical bodies are similar to and a model of the Father’s.

I basically agree with everything you said, but I am unclear about one thing - Are you saying that being created in the "image" of God refers only to our physical bodies? It is my belief that this refers to our "spirit" being.

Josh B)

The text in Genesis concerens a physical creation (flesh & bones) - I believe that the reading of that text is relative to the physical creation of man being in the image and likeness of G-d. The scriptures tell us that G-d the Father is the Father of our spirits therefore I assume that our spirit has the same relationship to our spiritual Father as our flesh has relationship to the father of our flesh.

BTW - I am impressed you found something we can agree on.

The Traveler

[Outshined]

They are about as valid as any of the problems critics claim to be in the LDS scriptures.

I wouldn't go that far...

I certainly would.

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It has been said that people are less likely to scrutinize their own beliefs as critically as the beliefs of others.

I guess that could account for both of our beliefs....

How so? I have yet to say your beliefs are false. I back the Bible wholeheartedly; in fact, I was an evangelical for many years. You are the one attacking the beliefs of others, my young friend.

[Princess3dward]

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They are about as valid as any of the problems critics claim to be in the LDS scriptures.

I wouldn't go that far...

I certainly would.

I would too.

[JoshuaFKon]

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<div class='quotemain'>

They are about as valid as any of the problems critics claim to be in the LDS scriptures.

I wouldn't go that far...

I certainly would.

I would too.

Well Desiré,

Since you have yet to actally point out a problem.....

I can't say I agree with you...

Josh B)

It has been said that people are less likely to scrutinize their own beliefs as critically as the beliefs of others.

I guess that could account for both of our beliefs....

How so? I have yet to say your beliefs are false. I back the Bible wholeheartedly; in fact, I was an evangelical for many years. You are the one attacking the beliefs of others, my young friend.

(1) Well technically...by being a member of "The one true church" you do imply that you feel my beliefs are false.

(2) How am I "attacking the beliefs of others" by asking someone to clarify a statment? She said "The Whole Bible Contradicts itself" And I'm attacking the beliefs of others by asking for an example?!

I personally call it healthy disscussion. :)

Josh B)

[Outshined]

(1) Well technically...by being a member of "The one true church" you do imply that you feel my beliefs are false.

How sad that you want to see it that way. Of course we have no web sites directed at attacking your church...

(2) How am I "attacking the beliefs of others" by asking someone to clarify a statment? She said "The Whole Bible Contradicts itself" And I'm attacking the beliefs of others by asking for an example?!

I refer to your anti-Mormon web site of course. You put a lot of effort into attacking another church. If you put half as much into actually understanding our beliefs...

[Dr T]

Hi Traveler,

Can you just tell me the names of the documents you are referring to that were found with the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Thanks

[JoshuaFKon]

How sad that you want to see it that way. Of course we have no web sites directed at attacking your church...

Have I lied on my site? Stretched the truth? mislead? Show me where and I will remove it! I think it is interesting that you call you self "the one true church" your doctrine states that all other chuches are an "abomination" and I am "attacking" the beliefs of others by asking questions that you cannot answer...

You believe I am wrong? Email a responce to anything on my site and I will post it, thus, my site will become a Pro-mormon site.

(2) How am I "attacking the beliefs of others" by asking someone to clarify a statment? She said "The Whole Bible Contradicts itself" And I'm attacking the beliefs of others by asking for an example?!

I refer to your anti-Mormon web site of course. You put a lot of effort into attacking another church. If you put half as much into actually understanding our beliefs...

Since you didn't mention my site, one would think from reading your post that you were refering to the subject we were talking about....

no hard feelings... :)

Josh B)

[Outshined]

Have I lied on my site? Stretched the truth? mislead? Show me where and I will remove it! I think it is interesting that you call you self "the one true church" your doctrine states that all other chuches are an "abomination" and I am "attacking" the beliefs of others but asking questions that you cannot answer...

1. We don't teach that your church is an abomination. Check the facts a bit more closely.

2. You have yet to ask a question that I could not answer. In fact, I've seen others answer you numerous times, but you ignored them, which means answers are a waste of time with you.

3. Yes, your site attacks the LDS Church. (In fact, by Open Directory Project standards, it is a hate site. )