The Gift of Seership

[jayanna]

Okay, asked in another thread, and I thought this was a good question so I'm starting a new thread just for it :) YAY!

Has has the gift of seership (as defined in Mosiah 8:13) been publicly manifest in the Church since the days of Joseph Smith? If it has been utilized, where? If it has not been utilized, why not?

It is being utilized!!! This is great news! And in many ways!

I'm going to start us off with one, Mosiah, Chapter 8 Mosiah 8 

13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can atranslate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called binterpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called cseer.

Right now, right very now while we are sitting at our computers this has been commanded to others and they are working away. They are using this revelation, this seership to translate old records so they can be read and understood and used to do the work of many waiting on the other side of the veil. I am very grateful for this b/c we have so many new records now, like the records of the Freemen bank, American Indian records, and immigration records from Ellis island, as well as overseas records that are hand-written, mispelled, in foreign languages and blurred by time. This information is currently skillfully brought back to us from dusty corners and back rooms, unearthed, uncloseted, and being made understood by the seer ability that has been given through the prophets to those that are asked, after a commandment from the Lord to have it done.

Precious souls, names whom have been temporarily lost can be brought back again through this amazing ability...and not only does the prophet have this, many members of the church like you and me, are using this on a dialy basis. It is wornderful to witness.

Thank you to all those that are helping with this monumental, historic work!

[Traveler]

Okay, asked in another thread, and I thought this was a good question so I'm starting a new thread just for it :) YAY!

Has has the gift of seership (as defined in Mosiah 8:13) been publicly manifest in the Church since the days of Joseph Smith? If it has been utilized, where? If it has not been utilized, why not?

It is being utilized!!! This is great news! And in many ways!

I'm going to start us off with one, Mosiah, Chapter 8 Mosiah 8*

13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can atranslate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called binterpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called cseer.

Right now, right very now while we are sitting at our computers this has been commanded to others and they are working away. They are using this revelation, this seership to translate old records so they can be read and understood and used to do the work of many waiting on the other side of the veil. I am very grateful for this b/c we have so many new records now, like the records of the Freemen bank, American Indian records, and immigration records from Ellis island, as well as overseas records that are hand-written, mispelled, in foreign languages and blurred by time. This information is currently skillfully brought back to us from dusty corners and back rooms, unearthed, uncloseted, and being made understood by the seer ability that has been given through the prophets to those that are asked, after a commandment from the Lord to have it done.

Precious souls, names whom have been temporarily lost can be brought back again through this amazing ability...and not only does the prophet have this, many members of the church like you and me, are using this on a dialy basis. It is wornderful to witness.

Thank you to all those that are helping with this monumental, historic work!

I think you have gotten a little oftrack - I believe that Mosiah is talking about seer stones and in particular the Urmin Thummim. One purpose of a seer is to translate ancient records - but that is hardly the only purpose. Also the Urmin Thummim is not always necessary in order for a seer to recieve revelation or to translate.

Because there is not public declarations concerning the use of a Urmin Thummim or seer stones - does not mean that such is not occuring. The use of such things is completly dependent on commandment and seldom are we ever let known if any particular revelation or converence talk is associated with use of what we are talking about.

It is my personal opinion that to request such information concerning the use of a Urmin kThummim is not within the scope of those seeking understanding to any revelation.

The Traveler

[jayanna]

12 And I say unto thee again: Knowest thou of any one that can translate? For I am desirous that these records should be translated into our language; for, perhaps, they will give us a knowledge of a remnant of the people who have been destroyed, from whence these records came; or, perhaps, they will give us a knowledge of this very people who have been destroyed; and I am desirous to know the cause of their destruction

I don't think it is off track at all. People that are dead, old records, baptisms of dead, endowments, sealings of families long separated, what better thing could it be used for?

The Lord commanded that it be done, and he is given this abilty in order to do it. And I"M SO JAZZED about it. Been working on my family history, and I think anyone who squints at scans of old hand-written records can understand my meaning, the Lord's hand has to be in it for it to be right. Whew great stuff!

[HiJolly]

I have not seen any evidence of the traditional, biblical role of Seer in play since Joseph Smith. I still love & support the Church, though, and have faith than any of our sustained Seers could step into the role if needed.

HiJolly

[Matthew0059]

jayanna-

Traveller is right- Ammon is telling king Lamoni about Mosiah's gift of seership as it pertains to the translation of ancient records via seer stone (called "interpreters" by Moroni in Ether 4:5). It was through these interpreters (Urim and Thumim) that Joseph Smith translated the first portion of the Book of Mormon. Interestingly enough, he used another seer stone to translate the portion that came after the first 116 pages.

Joseph Smith remarking on seers:

"Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted Seers in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book".

It may be useful to note that the common definition of "seer" among the Church is not this definition offered by Joseph Smith. Even if there were an active seer at all times in the Church leadership, they could not have all used the same Urim and Thumim at the same time- thus, they could not all have been "seers" at the same portion of time. True seers are exceedingly rare, as out of the entire Standard Works we have verifiable records of maybe 5-6 (random number, didn't think too long for that guess- could be higher or lower).

In the sense that prophets "see" things beyond the comprehension of mortal man- that is, that they plainly understand the plan of salvation, consequences for sin, the ancient prophecies, etc.- they are "seers", or "see-ers". However, according to Joseph's definition- and the definition offered by Ammon- they are not "seers".

Do they have the legal right to be seers, and is it possible that we will have a seer as president in teh future? Maybe... I like to think so! The gift of prophecy and revelation are not contingent upon the gift of seership, so the modern prophets and apostles are still prophets and revelators, inasmuch as they prophecy and reveal (which they do, in abundance).

In fact, we are all but guaranteed that the Lord will raise up another seer to translate the remainder of the Book of Mormon...

[Matthew0059]

The modern surge in genealogical work is a powerful example of the power of prophecy, IMO. I too am excited to be getting into my genealogy (just now finally starting it!).

[jayanna]

A seer is also what a Patriarch is. When we get a Patriarchal Blessing, in it when learn of our past maybe traits we had in the pre-existence (that's what is in mine anyway), what tribe of the 12 tribes we are, warnings of the present and guidance for our future trials and blessings, mine even states a few things about work I'll do in the millenium. This is another way the role of seer is used in the church.

A Seer does not have to use the interpreters...a seer sees things that have been, that are, and that are to come. That is how the prophets can warn us of things that are to come. Before Hurricane Katrina, the storehouses around that area were stocked with more than usual. They were prepared for something to happen, this is not an accident. We have to have a seer to protect us from what will be, such as the current debt crisis. We have a seer for a prophet now, and several seers to fill the callings they have been given.

[jayanna]

I just remembered something.

My husband has quite a talent. When we go for walks in the woods (some would say 'hiking' but it seems hiking requires strenuous activity of which I have none) we can be walking along a trail. I get really excited if an animal runs across and I see it...oooo look a ???? !!!!

My hubby laughs usually when I do this, and I say that every time. He says to me, stop, so I stop, and he starts pointing out all the animals I am missing because they blend in so well and I don't notice them. That's when I really feel like a bonehead. He does this in the zoo too when we are looking in a pen or the reptile house and it seems empty to me. He can spot them every time.

I think some things are like that with the gospel. It can be going on all around us and we don't even notice it, we don't have eyes trained to notice it. I think this role of seer can be one of those things. Just because it is not obvious to some does not mean that it is not there. I would like to promise you that we would not be asked to sustain someone as a seer if they were not a seer. It is a necessary part of leading the church, especially right now.

I am a little too enthusiastic sometimes and I know I might come across the wrong way, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I really do think that translating the ever-so-important records is a way to use the role of seer, and I hope they keep it up :) It is the only way that many people in my area have of finding their lost family members, and it is a testimony to many (including nonmembers here) that it is the work of the Lord to translate these for us.

[Matthew0059]

jayanna-

I think what you're explaining is all well and good, and the fruits of the spirit of prophecy. Since the beginning, my contention has been that, scripturally speaking, a "seer" is only one who uses the seer stones.

Perhaps the issue is that the term "seer", as we use it amongst ourselves in the Church, has grown to mean something other than how it is used in the scriptures. That's not necessarily a bad thing, so long as we recognize it.

I think what you've described- including your analagous anecdote about your husband's ability to see things you miss- is a fantastic example of someone who holds the gift of discernment (which is a great gift from God).

[jayanna]

He does have discernment. I love him:wub:

[jayanna]

oh, Matthew, I think I understand what you are saying about your quote about what constituted seers, but that was seers in former times...

a link to def of seer Seer

Edited January 23, 2012 by jayanna
forgot the link

[Matthew0059]

oh, Matthew, I think I understand what you are saying about your quote about what constituted seers, but that was seers in former times...

Definitions is what I'm mainly concerned about. If you're beginning to see it, then I've accomplished my desire.

Seership- or the ability to look into Urim and Thumim or other seer stones and receive revelation from God- is a gift from God. It is similar to the gifts of discernment, charity, prophecy, healing, tongues, etc. and holds a very specific purpose in the Kingdom of God.

So I have no problem calling the modern prophets "seers" so long as we understand that the term, as we use it nowadays, is not the definition found in the scriptures or the "former times" that Joseph Smith talked about.

The difference may seem nitpicky, but it's part of a bigger issue which I won't get into here.

Cheers!

[Traveler]

Definitions is what I'm mainly concerned about. If you're beginning to see it, then I've accomplished my desire.

Seership- or the ability to look into Urim and Thumim or other seer stones and receive revelation from God- is a gift from God. It is similar to the gifts of discernment, charity, prophecy, healing, tongues, etc. and holds a very specific purpose in the Kingdom of God.

So I have no problem calling the modern prophets "seers" so long as we understand that the term, as we use it nowadays, is not the definition found in the scriptures or the "former times" that Joseph Smith talked about.

The difference may seem nitpicky, but it's part of a bigger issue which I won't get into here.

Cheers!

I do not think you understand and are paying attention. - The First presidency and quorum of the 12 are all seers and have access to the interpreters which are a gift from G-d. It is my personal belief - but something to which I do not testify but put forward as personal belief -- that the interpreters are much and often used by those so ordained.

I believe that from time to time such things are used to determine policy - perhaps such policy as missionary calls, advice concerning tattoos and other such things and the use of humanitarian funds. Perhaps even used to determine what political propositions must be supported by sacred funds.

My point is that we sustain certain offices as seers - I think it is short sited to assume they do not have access to all needed “things” to fulfill their calling.

The Traveler

[HiJolly]

My point is that we sustain certain offices as seers - I think it is short sited to assume they do not have access to all needed “things” to fulfill their calling.

The Traveler

Has anyone assumed that?

HiJolly

[annewandering]

What is it called when a person reads a genealogical record that is waterstained, torn and mangled so that what they see is not even completely there for anyone else or even them at another time?

[Matthew0059]

The question I raised in another thread was where are the fruits of seership?

An entire thread devoted to this topic now, and NO ONE has bothered to point out one example in our recent history- or even our entire history, since Joseph Smith- where the Brethren said "well, we consulted our seer stones, and..." or anything similar to that effect. To my knowledge, it hasn't happened.

I understand the idea that seers don't have to use stones to "see" things of great spiritual significance- but then those "seers", if they aren't given the gift of the seer stone and using it, are not true "seers" according to the BoM, the keystone of our religion. At the least, they haven't achieved the heights of the gift of seership.

My point is that we sustain certain offices as seers - I think it is short sited to assume they do not have access to all needed “things” to fulfill their calling.

Maybe I haven't been clear enough. That's my fault.

I agree with the above statement, and think the Brethren are in possession of the needed tools to fulfill their callings. My contention has always dealt with the fruits of their seership- where are they? You and I can "guess" and "assume" and "believe" that the prophets are guided through the gift of seership- but where is the clearly stated public manifestation of seership? When is the last time a GA remarked that he used his seer stone to find out any information from God? We have had dreams and revelations from time to time from the Brethren- but not public attestations to seership. I don't think a person is obligated to sustain every action the Brethren take as the result of seership, when we're given no reason to do so.

The gift of seership is one of the greatest gifts of God; a gift that is greater "can no man have" (Mosiah 8:16). If it's no longer utilized among the leadership of the Church- or if the Brethren have to hide the fact that they still utilize it- why?

[Matthew0059]

I do not think you understand and are paying attention. - The First presidency and quorum of the 12 are all seers and have access to the interpreters which are a gift from G-d.

I'd like to see authoritative documentation supporting this claim. I know the Church is rumored to be in possession of the seer stone Joseph Smith used- and I know that Brigham Young taught that each man that ever lived is entitled to one. However, I'd hesitate to make the automatic assumption that each apostle automatically has found one.

Personally, I believe at least 2 of the Brethren have access to a stone (possibly all 15), should they seek it out. However, I can't back up that belief with proof of any substance.

[HiJolly]

I'd like to see authoritative documentation supporting this claim. I know the Church is rumored to be in possession of the seer stone Joseph Smith used- and I know that Brigham Young taught that each man that ever lived is entitled to one. However, I'd hesitate to make the automatic assumption that each apostle automatically has found one.

Personally, I believe at least 2 of the Brethren have access to a stone (possibly all 15), should they seek it out. However, I can't back up that belief with proof of any substance.

As I understand it, Joseph's two seer-stones are currently in the First Presidency's vault.

HiJolly

[Colirio]

If I did have one, no one would know.

If the current church leaders have and use one, why would they ever declare such a sacred thing publicly?

[kduncan99]

The question I raised in another thread was where are the fruits of seership?

An entire thread devoted to this topic now, and NO ONE has bothered to point out one example in our recent history- or even our entire history, since Joseph Smith- where the Brethren said "well, we consulted our seer stones, and..." or anything similar to that effect. To my knowledge, it hasn't happened.

I understand the idea that seers don't have to use stones to "see" things of great spiritual significance- but then those "seers", if they aren't given the gift of the seer stone and using it, are not true "seers" according to the BoM, the keystone of our religion. At the least, they haven't achieved the heights of the gift of seership.

Maybe I haven't been clear enough. That's my fault.

I agree with the above statement, and think the Brethren are in possession of the needed tools to fulfill their callings. My contention has always dealt with the fruits of their seership- where are they? You and I can "guess" and "assume" and "believe" that the prophets are guided through the gift of seership- but where is the clearly stated public manifestation of seership? When is the last time a GA remarked that he used his seer stone to find out any information from God? We have had dreams and revelations from time to time from the Brethren- but not public attestations to seership. I don't think a person is obligated to sustain every action the Brethren take as the result of seership, when we're given no reason to do so.

The gift of seership is one of the greatest gifts of God; a gift that is greater "can no man have" (Mosiah 8:16). If it's no longer utilized among the leadership of the Church- or if the Brethren have to hide the fact that they still utilize it- why?

In Nephi's day he saw many things in the future, therefore a seer, and yet he did not tell us everything. See 1 Ne 14:28 And behold, I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw.

Why?.... because we are not ready. It has been said that these latter days are worse than the days of Sodom and Gomorrah. Do not assume they (latter day prophets and apostles) are not seers, or that they have not revealed things to us in a more subtle manner, to see our willingness to understand and obey.

[Matthew0059]

Okay... Two points I want to make here.

1) For most of the discussion, I have emphasized that when I used the term "seer" I was using the definition offered by Ammon in Mosiah 8- i.e., a "seer" is one who uses a seer stone. I am aware that, in common usage, it doesn't definitely mean this. So saying Nephi saw visions- thus making him a seer- is harmonious with the colloquial definition, but not congruent with the scriptural definition. Definitions don't really matter- the importance lies behind the definition, and understanding the truth of the matter, as it really is.

2) The early Church members rejoiced in the more overt things of the spirit- including seer stones. What's happened? Why are the Church members uncomfortable with those things now, and why have the Brethren stopped talking openly about it? This is the real question that I've been driving at the whole time.

Why has the Lord "covered" the seers?

[Matthew0059]

Why?.... because we are not ready. It has been said that these latter days are worse than the days of Sodom and Gomorrah. Do not assume they (latter day prophets and apostles) are not seers, or that they have not revealed things to us in a more subtle manner, to see our willingness to understand and obey.

I am looking forward to the day when the fullness of the account of the Brother of Jared can be revealed (Ether 4:6).

I have never said the latter-day apostles are not seers... If I have written those words, that was not the fullness of what I meant. Only that the gift of seership, if it is still had among the Brethren, has been hidden.

[Vort]

For most of the discussion, I have emphasized that when I used the term "seer" I was using the definition offered by Ammon in Mosiah 8- i.e., a "seer" is one who uses a seer stone.

This is incorrect. The Book of Mormon does not limit the definition of "seer" to "someone who uses a seer stone". Rather, it says that those who use seer stones are called with the appellation of "seer" -- not that such is the only way to be a seer. As the chapter goes on to explain, a seer is someone who "sees" past, present, and future. So your entire argument is really just a house of cards that falls to pieces when you realize that the supposed "definition" you cite is not restrictive, merely descriptive of one possible aspect of seership.

[Matthew0059]

This is incorrect. The Book of Mormon does not limit the definition of "seer" to "someone who uses a seer stone". Rather, it says that those who use seer stones are called with the appellation of "seer" -- not that such is the only way to be a seer. As the chapter goes on to explain, a seer is someone who "sees" past, present, and future. So your entire argument is really just a house of cards that falls to pieces when you realize that the supposed "definition" you cite is not restrictive, merely descriptive of one possible aspect of seership.

I think I have referenced the fact that the gift of seership has multiple "levels" as it were (or, "greater" and "lesser" portions of the gift), and that fact that what we call seers are not the definition found in the BoM (even if you think it is unclear- I disagree). Ammon clearly indicates that the only ones who were called "seers" were those in possession of the interpreters (stones)- the rest were called "prophets".

Moreover, Joseph Smith stated that

... these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim... and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers” in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.

Now, there are more than one set of U + T mentioned in the scriptures- Abraham received one, and the Brother of Jared received one. Both were accounted for on two different continents contemporaneously (Israel had one and the Jaredites had the other). Therefore, it stands to reason that what constituted a "seer" in former times was not being in possession of and using the same U + T that Joseph had, but by having possession of and using a similar instrument- a seer stone (or stones).

I don't agree with what you've written re: the definition of "seer" as found in Mosiah 8. However, even if you are correct, I would also ask you to consider the import of the rest of what I'm asking- why is the gift of seership (the greater portion of the gift- the use of seer stones) not publicly utilized anymore? We don't even talk about it- the fact that Joseph had a seer stone other than the U + T isn't even common knowledge in the Church anymore. The ancient house of Israel, despite their wickedness, made frequent use of the U + T. The angel Moroni took Joseph's U + T, but we still have his other seer stones- yet they're never mentioned or used. Instead, they're locked away in a vault (according to HiJolly's sources), where they might still be used- but we never hear about that, or about them.

Why? I can think of two possible answers- neither of which bode well for the body of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I've used this issue of the seer stones in the same way I've used the Denver Snuffer thread: both issues point to something deeper that, for us, is about to become a major issue.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Matthew0059

[Just_A_Guy]

Matthew, just to provide an authoritative source for something HiJolly already hinted at:

Current note 20 in the Wikipedia entry on "Seer stone (Latter Day Saints)" reads as follows:

Joseph Fielding Smith (tenth president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1970-72) wrote, “The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altar in the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so spoken of, however, was the seer stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days. This seer stone is currently in the possession of the Church.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-56), 3: 225.