God Can't Do Everything

[Dr T]

I have talked to Christians about this topic on another board. They argued “God can do anything.” They even went so far as saying, “God CAN make a squared circle.” Here was the examples that have been used to refute that idea.

When you quote the verse saying “all things are possible…” cannot it mean, “all things that are possibly done”? For things to be done that are impossible to do, that makes absolutely no sense. Those things then would not be impossible. This is an absurdity just like the question of God making a rock so big He cannot lifting it. Those are as nonsensical as these:

"Can God make this question into a declarative sentence?"

"Can God change the subject of this sentence to 'Jello'?"

"Can God make this sentence so long that He cannot read it?"

"Can God make the slithy toves gyre and gimble in the wabe?"

“Can God create a rock so invisible that it casts a shadow two nanoseconds long?”

These examples are absurd and therefore not worthy of perusing and even more silly to say, “Yes God could if He really wanted to.” Sorry if that was offensive Sir/Maam but your arguments are, although admirable in a “that’s cute” sort of way, just as silly as the questions themselves.

The examples above appear to be regular sentences but they have what philosophers of language call 'ungrammaticality' (See Language and Reality--An Introduction to the Philosophy of Language, by Michael Devitt & Kim Sterelny, MIT Press, pps.89-92). Another example would be, “Colorless green ideas sleep furiously." These sentences (and any questions based upon them like, "Do colorless green ideas sleep furiously?") are said to have “no truth value” (as they are neither “true nor false”)--they just don't have any meaning and therefore cannot be true or false. Again, they are absurdities. To say, God can make something colorlessly green but we don’t know what that means or looks like is basically useless/silly. This is no different than your assertion that “God CAN make a square circle.”

I’m guessing that this conversation has you shaking your head and you might be racking your brain to come up with a reason for my arguments to be false. So because of that, maybe it would be more useful for you to work through this question to see how/why this is a ridiculous question. The first thing I’d like you to do is research and list the definition of a circle and then do the same for a square. The essence of each are different and cannot be used in the same sentence as being the same thing at the same time and in the same way.

He went on to say that the only things that God cannot do were because He agreed that He couldn’t do them. So I said, “Ok, as far as your other argument is concerned, I’ll have to use the same argument with different examples (you didn’t address my first ones by the way), to see if you can come to the conclusion that there are definitely things that God cannot do apart from “His agreeing to it.”

More examples regarding His essence, might include,

“It is impossible for him to will Himself out of existence?”

“Can God be Satan?”

“Can God find the limits to his unlimited abilities?”

“Can God do something that God can’t do?”

“Can God formulate a proof of His own non-existence?”

The answer to these simple questions is NO. God cannot do those things because they go against His nature. They are silly things to ponder because they are impossibilities. Again, to hold “in order for God to be omnipotent (all powerful) it is requisite that He be able to do things that are impossible is silly. If impossible things are possibly done, those things are not impossibilities Sir. Again, silliness. My answer to all of those questions might as well be “Blue Unicorns which taste like Mondays.” Logically incoherent, Sir/Maam.

In conclusion “Name of poster”, for a believer, it makes the most sense that God can do impossible things (Walk on water, be outside of time, know all things, etc., for example) and He can obviously do the possible. For people to hold that God can do things that are logically impossible I would just have to shake my head. Since there is a belief that an omnipotent God exists, then the believer (in my mind anyway) seems to have to come down to “God can do all things that are logically possible to do/logically possible.” If a believer does not come to this conclusion then I think they would be standing on a slippery slope or chasing a rabbit trail that they do not want to chase because of the implications of knowing ANYTHING about God.

Those are some excerpts from a conversation that I had with someone. That is why I was saying that there are things that God cannot do.

Dr. T

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I agree with you Dr. T.

Something I (and many LDS I know) believe is that there are eternal laws that God didn't create and that even He can't abrogate. These eternal laws deal with what is good and evil, justice, mercy, etc...

Regardless of whether someone believes that or not, I believe the point of saying that God has all power is to point out that He has all power necessary to save us from death and hell.

I think it's absurd to assert that God can do anything, because as you so thoroughly pointed out, that assertion breaks down under scrutiny.

[Dr T]

Thanks AK. I look forward to others thought on this idea. :)

[Princess3dward]

:) I agree with you AK.

I like the way you say things!

[Snow]

I

More examples regarding His essence, might include,

“It is impossible for him to will Himself out of existence?”

“Can God be Satan?”

The answer to these simple questions is NO. God cannot do those things because they go against His nature. They are silly things to ponder because they are impossibilities.

Says who - that they are impossible?

Why couldn't God cease to be God? What would prevent him?

Why couldn't God become Satan (a supernaturally powerful maleovent diety)? Says who?

I believe the point of saying that God has all power is to point out that He has all power necessary to save us from death and hell.

So you believe in a God that is powerful, but limited. You may be right but that is contrary to orthodoxically understood LDS doctrine - is it not?

[Princess3dward]

This is uber intresting!

I am going to try not to comment and follow along! :D

[Dr T]

Hey Snow,

The easy answer; me. My guess is you say so too. Why would you hold otherwise? Do you contend that God, begin eternal, can cease to exist? Contradiction. Can you really argue that God can be Satan? He would then be evil. If God is not evil-that could not follow. Please expalin.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Guest ApostleKnight]

You may be right but that is contrary to orthodoxically understood LDS doctrine - is it not?

I can only answer that based on the LDS members I know, and my acquaintances don't believe God can make a rock so big He can't lift it, for example.

I believe it is Alma who points out that God could cease to be God...but He never will because His nature is perfect goodness. But the D&C points out that God can't create matter or intelligence, those are self-existent. So in that sense yes, God is powerful but limited.

[Dr T]

Can you point me to where Alma says that God could cease to be God?

Thanks

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Read here, in Alma 42.

[Traveler]

I agree with Snow (perhaps a first). Just because we think something is impossible does not mean that it is. Perhaps a circle in our 3 dimentions is a squar in 17 dimentions. Or because our universe is "curved" perhaps a large enough squar with black holes in the right places would become a circle.

When we ask the wrong question we get invalid answers.

When we ask what "can" be - we might begin to think that it will be. Can there be peace in the middle east? The answer is meaningless because dispite all that can be; there is only one something that will be and that is not likely peace.

When we speculate what G-d can do it is meaningless because how are we going to prove or settle the question. One object of faith, is a faith in the truth of what G-d will do. If we have faith G-d will do something that he has already decided he will not do; our faith is a false faith that will lead us into much sorrow and confusion. The real questions are not what G-d "can" do but what he "will" do.

The Traveler

[Princess3dward]

The real questions are not what G-d "can" do but what he "will" do.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Thanks for the link A.K. Reading it, it appears to say that if God was not being just, He would not be God. You are the expert in this, not me, but it appears to be equating justice with God and therefore setting it up as God will always be just. To say that He would not be just would just like saying it is not God. I don't read it saying that God would cease to be God. You can correct me if I’m in error.

Thanks again,

Dr. T

[Dr T]

Hi Traveler,

Thanks for your thoughts. It's not about what God "will do" that we are looking at but “what He can and can't do.” These are being based on the law of non-contradiction (in my book) and holding that God can do absurdities and those who hold being able to do those things as a requirement for Him to be God. I think it is ridiculous to hold to that being a requirement/characteristic for Him being God. It just makes more logical sense to believe that God can do all things that are logically done.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[karrie91]

To me it makes sense that as we have our limitations and boundaries so would God. Just his are larger than ours.

This is logical as we are made in his image and by him wouldnt we have a degree of similarity? If so do we have our limitations and do we have ways to exceed those limitations with growth? If you can answer yes to these questions then the answer would be, nothing is impossible within the limitations and growth ability of God. (To be honest that limitation is beyond our true capability of understanding so without delving into the philisophical impact of a question then it can be concieved as nothing falling short of possible.)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I don't read it saying that God would cease to be God. You can correct me if I’m in error.

It's a matter of interpretation I suppose. To me, godhood is an office or status involving priesthood authority and other attributes like perfect knowledge, perfect goodness, etc... So to me, Alma 42 is saying that if God was ever unjust, He'd forfeit His godhood along with his perfect goodness and theoretically could cease to be God (He'd still exist as a being, just not a perfect one). However, the point overall is--I agree--that God is just and always will be.

[shanstress70]

This is an interesting topic to me, as I struggle with it all the time... it's the biggest stumbing block of my faith. How can god be capable of stepping in to help a 5 year old girl who is being raped and tortured and NOT intervene? Doesn't seem possible to me.

I tend to go with the belief that God is NOT omnipotent. It's really the only way that I can keep my faith at this time. If He is omnipotent, then it would be logical to me that He is not a loving God, or perhaps that He is not all-knowing so He can't help those like I mentioned above.

I do believe that God is loving and all-knowing, so this belief makes the most sense to me. Someone has recently suggested that I read some of Rabbi Harold Kushner's books who believes similar to the way I do. Has anyone read any of his books? If so, what did you think of them?

[Princess3dward]

This is an interesting topic to me, as I struggle with it all the time... it's the biggest stumbing block of my faith. How can god be capable of stepping in to help a 5 year old girl who is being raped and tortured and NOT intervene? Doesn't seem possible to me.

And if he did? He doesn't intervine. He gave the earth to us....

It is our job.

He could if He didn't give the whole earth to us.

Why else would he get Moses-a regular man- to free the hebrews?

Because it is mans job.

[Serg]

I agree with you Dr. T.

Something I (and many LDS I know) believe is that there are eternal laws that God didn't create and that even He can't abrogate. These eternal laws deal with what is good and evil, justice, mercy, etc...

Regardless of whether someone believes that or not, I believe the point of saying that God has all power is to point out that He has all power necessary to save us from death and hell.

I think it's absurd to assert that God can do anything, because as you so thoroughly pointed out, that assertion breaks down under scrutiny.

This is a great topic, and one very often misunderstood. Read Ostler's "Exploring Mormon thought: The attributes of God"where it deals(very lengthly) with the issue of how "omnipotent"can God be. And it ends stating several conclusions, one of which is here given by Apostle :God has all power is to point out that He has all power necessary to save us from death and hell.

God cannot change numbers, or some rules, even more, the chapter in which he deals with this("Maximal divine power") states the paradox that we can draw: Is God so omnipotent as to create a rock that he cannot lift"? Think about it, whatever the response, it makes him not so omnipotent. LOL.

So summerizing, God has only to have the greatest CONCEIVABLE power, and the greatest power as to let no room for any else to have more power than he does(so no other could ever restrict His wishes or obstruct His plans), also, God must be able just to bring about those state of afairs that go along with His attributes(intrinsec)(as in, he cant lie, etc...) and along with eternal rules(be them instituted by Him or others) as physics. Surely, God cant have water if not with H2O, nor can he have ice if not with at least 32 degrees, He does not need to be able to do anything illogical or stupid in order to be conceived as all powerful.

[Dr T]

Hello Karrie,

I'm not suggesting that God is as limited as we are in any way. I am only arguing that God is limited by His nature. Like AK pointed out- God will always be "just" yet He is also gracious. That would be an interesting thread. How do those go together?

===

Shan,

What you are laying out is called "the problem of pain/evil." I have thought a lot about it. I've come to the conclusion that it is one of the most power arguments against God. Not in a divines’ existence but in some of the characteristics of a divine being that is all powerful, all knowing, and all good. I've come down to an understanding that the utility of evil might have a good reason and therefore does not take away from any of the above characteristics. That is a whole other thread.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[shanstress70]

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This is an interesting topic to me, as I struggle with it all the time... it's the biggest stumbing block of my faith. How can god be capable of stepping in to help a 5 year old girl who is being raped and tortured and NOT intervene? Doesn't seem possible to me.

And if he did? He doesn't intervine. He gave the earth to us....

It is our job.

He could if He didn't give the whole earth to us.

Why else would he get Moses-a regular man- to free the hebrews?

Because it is mans job.

To your question, "And what if He did?": If He did, He would have stopped the girl from being tortured! Perhaps I'm not sure of your question.

And if you say God doesn't intervene, why do we pray and ask God for things? Why do some say that He has answered prayers to heal, save lives, etc? Wouldn't that be intervention? How does God choose who to help?

Shan,

What you are laying out is called "the problem of pain/evil." I have thought a lot about it. I've come to the conclusion that it is one of the most power arguments against God. Not in a divines’ existence but in some of the characteristics of a divine being that is all powerful, all knowing, and all good. I've come down to an understanding that the utility of evil might have a good reason and therefore does not take away from any of the above characteristics. That is a whole other thread.

Yes, I've thought a lot about it as well... this very thing almost destroyed my faith. I've heard all the explanations, but nothing makes sense to me except for what I touched on here.

[Dr T]

Shan,

The only Kushner book that I've read is "Why do bad things happen to good people." It didn't resolve it for me. "The problem of pain" by C.S. Lewis also left me wanting for a better explaination. Maybe we can get into it when I have more time. For Kushners' ideas, it seems a change in question is ultimately required. "Why does God allow good things to happen to evil people?"

Thanks,

Dr. T

[shanstress70]

Shan,

The only Kushner book that I've read is "Why do bad things happen to good people." It didn't resolve it for me. "The problem of pain" by C.S. Lewis also left me wanting for a better explaination. Maybe we can get into it when I have more time. For Kushners' ideas, it seems a change in question is ultimately required. "Why does God allow good things to happen to evil people?"

Thanks,

Dr. T

Thanks... I'll have to read it then perhaps we can discuss.

[JoshuaFKon]

Shan,

The only Kushner book that I've read is "Why do bad things happen to good people." It didn't resolve it for me. "The problem of pain" by C.S. Lewis also left me wanting for a better explaination. Maybe we can get into it when I have more time. For Kushners' ideas, it seems a change in question is ultimately required. "Why does God allow good things to happen to evil people?"

Thanks,

Dr. T

I heard I theory,

That In Genesis, God gave dominion to Humans (Adam) and therefore He can't intervene.

That's why:

(1) Jesus had to come to earth as a human and not just "God"

(2) The demons always screamed "You are the Son of God" (a.k.a. Hey, you're God you can't stop us!)

According to this theory God "leased" earth to humans for a certain amount of time (6000 years I believe)

and when it expires God will return.

Really I find if very logical, if God exists (and I believe he does) then He must not be able to intervene.

Think of all the evil in the world...World War II, sickness...etc. If God could stop it, He would be obligated to. (I think)

Josh B)

[Princess3dward]

And if you say God doesn't intervene, why do we pray and ask God for things? Why do some say that He has answered prayers to heal, save lives, etc? Wouldn't that be intervention? How does God choose who to help?

He only does things by faith.

And bottom line, he gave the earth to us, and if he was ALWAYS making miricles (actually, I think he does... but little ones), than where would be the test?

Where would be the faith?