God Can't Do Everything

[shanstress70]

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Shan,

The only Kushner book that I've read is "Why do bad things happen to good people." It didn't resolve it for me. "The problem of pain" by C.S. Lewis also left me wanting for a better explaination. Maybe we can get into it when I have more time. For Kushners' ideas, it seems a change in question is ultimately required. "Why does God allow good things to happen to evil people?"

Thanks,

Dr. T

I heard I theory,

That In Genesis, God gave dominion to Humans (Adam) and therefore He can't intervene.

That's why:

(1) Jesus had to come to earth as a human and not just "God"

(2) The demons always screamed "You are the Son of God" (a.k.a. Hey, you're God you can't stop us!)

According to this theory God "leased" earth to humans for a certain amount of time (6000 years I believe)

and when it expires God will return.

Really I find if very logical, if God exists (and I believe he does) then He must not be able to intervene.

Think of all the evil in the world...World War II, sickness...etc. If God could stop it, He would be obligated to. (I think)

Josh B)

Then can you address this part of my post to Desire on the subject?

"And if you say God doesn't intervene, why do we pray and ask God for things? Why do some say that He has answered prayers to heal, save lives, etc? Wouldn't that be intervention? How does God choose who to help?"

[Princess3dward]

Then can you address this part of my post to Desire on the subject?

"And if you say God doesn't intervene, why do we pray and ask God for things? Why do some say that He has answered prayers to heal, save lives, etc? Wouldn't that be intervention? How does God choose who to help?"

Why don't you?

lol. Like I said, he does by faith.

[shanstress70]

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And if you say God doesn't intervene, why do we pray and ask God for things? Why do some say that He has answered prayers to heal, save lives, etc? Wouldn't that be intervention? How does God choose who to help?

He only does things by faith.

And bottom line, he gave the earth to us, and if he was ALWAYS making miricles (actually, I think he does... but little ones), than where would be the test?

Where would be the faith?

So you think God intervenes, but only in reference to small issues? Like finding keys and the like?

[Princess3dward]

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And if you say God doesn't intervene, why do we pray and ask God for things? Why do some say that He has answered prayers to heal, save lives, etc? Wouldn't that be intervention? How does God choose who to help?

He only does things by faith.

And bottom line, he gave the earth to us, and if he was ALWAYS making miricles (actually, I think he does... but little ones), than where would be the test?

Where would be the faith?

So you think God intervenes, but only in reference to small issues? Like finding keys and the like?

No. I never said that. I said those happen every day.

[shanstress70]

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Then can you address this part of my post to Desire on the subject?

"And if you say God doesn't intervene, why do we pray and ask God for things? Why do some say that He has answered prayers to heal, save lives, etc? Wouldn't that be intervention? How does God choose who to help?"

Why don't you?

lol. Like I said, he does by faith.

This post was to Joshua.

[Princess3dward]

everyone goes through crap.

No one is exempt.

[shanstress70]

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And if you say God doesn't intervene, why do we pray and ask God for things? Why do some say that He has answered prayers to heal, save lives, etc? Wouldn't that be intervention? How does God choose who to help?

He only does things by faith.

And bottom line, he gave the earth to us, and if he was ALWAYS making miricles (actually, I think he does... but little ones), than where would be the test?

Where would be the faith?

So you think God intervenes, but only in reference to small issues? Like finding keys and the like?

No. I never said that. I said those happen every day.

But you did say He doesn't intervene. Just trying to figure out what you're saying...

[Princess3dward]

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Then can you address this part of my post to Desire on the subject?

"And if you say God doesn't intervene, why do we pray and ask God for things? Why do some say that He has answered prayers to heal, save lives, etc? Wouldn't that be intervention? How does God choose who to help?"

Why don't you?

lol. Like I said, he does by faith.

This post was to Joshua.

I know... but you were asking HIM to reference that to ME!

That ignores my question...

Why don't you?

But you did say He doesn't intervene. Just trying to figure out what you're saying...

I corrected that a while ago. According to faith.

I know plenty of people with huge experiances.

Figured it out yet? Or are you still confused?

God never lets anything happen that would be impossible for us to follow Him.

If something bad happens, it is for our own good, as harsh as that may sound... to me and everyone.

[shanstress70]

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Then can you address this part of my post to Desire on the subject?

"And if you say God doesn't intervene, why do we pray and ask God for things? Why do some say that He has answered prayers to heal, save lives, etc? Wouldn't that be intervention? How does God choose who to help?"

Why don't you?

lol. Like I said, he does by faith.

This post was to Joshua.

I know... but you were asking HIM to reference that to ME!

That ignores my question...

Why don't you?

But you did say He doesn't intervene. Just trying to figure out what you're saying...

I corrected that a while ago. According to faith.

I know plenty of people with huge experiances.

Figured it out yet? Or are you still confused?

God never lets anything happen that would be impossible for us to follow Him.

If something bad happens, it is for our own good, as harsh as that may sound... to me and everyone.

Am I confused? I was not asking Joshua to reference anything to you... I was asking him to answer the question that I posed to you.

And as far as God not helping out children who are being tortured or whatever, are you saying that if they had enough faith He would help them?

[JoshuaFKon]

"And if you say God doesn't intervene, why do we pray and ask God for things? Why do some say that He has answered prayers to heal, save lives, etc? Wouldn't that be intervention? How does God choose who to help?"

Well, lets see.

Keep in mind this is only my opinion, and I haven't studied it as much as l'd like to yet..

But, I don't think God is sitting in heaven saying...Ok...I'll answer his prayer, but not this guy's...

The Bible says God is no respecter of persons. And I cannot believe he chooses to only answer some prayers.

Right now I'm going to pray for $25,000 dollars. Did I get it? (I'll let you know if I get if before I finish this post )

I believe that your prayers being answered is some how dependent on your faith...in your belief that God will answer your prayer.

Think back to When Jesus healed people in the Bible, Did He say "My great power to intervene has made you whole" no, He always said "your faith has made you whole" your faith in Jesus.

I won't pretend that I can really explain this. But I feel it is imposlsible that God is picking and choosing which prayers to answer.

Jesus said: "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.

And all things you ask in prayer believing, you shall receive"

I think it is clear that God does not Choose which prayers to answer. It is somehow dependent on us...

Just my opinion.

Josh B)

And as far as God not helping out children who are being tortured or whatever, are you saying that if they had enough faith He would help them?

I guess so...Do you have a better explanation for why God does not intervene?

Josh B)

[shanstress70]

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"And if you say God doesn't intervene, why do we pray and ask God for things? Why do some say that He has answered prayers to heal, save lives, etc? Wouldn't that be intervention? How does God choose who to help?"

Well, lets see.

Keep in mind this is only my opinion, and I haven't studied it as much as l'd like to yet..

But, I don't think God is sitting in heaven saying...Ok...I'll answer his prayer, but not this guy's...

The Bible says God is no respecter of persons. And I cannot believe he chooses to only answer some prayers.

Right now I'm going to pray for $25,000 dollars. Did I get it? (I'll let you know if I get if before I finish this post )

I believe that your prayers being answered is some how dependent on your faith...in your belief that God will answer your prayer.

Think back to When Jesus healed people in the Bible, Did He say "My great power to intervene has made you whole" no, He always said "your faith has made you whole" your faith in Jesus.

I won't pretend that I can really explain this. But I feel it is imposlsible that God is picking and choosing which prayers to answer.

Jesus said: "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.

And all things you ask in prayer believing, you shall receive"

I think it is clear that God does not Choose which prayers to answer. It is somehow dependent on us...

Just my opinion.

Josh B)

Wow, this would be really rough for someone to hear who has lost a child after praying for God to spare the child's life... that they didn't have enough faith.

[JoshuaFKon]

Wow, this would be really rough for someone to hear who has lost a child after praying for God to spare the child's life... that they didn't have enough faith.

I know, but would it be harder then hearing God choose not to help?

And in the hypothetical situation, I would not blame the parents or anyone else, I don't know why all prayers are not answered (It could be lack of faith, many peolple are unsure as to "God's will") But I don't think I would blame God.

Josh B)

[StrawberryFields]

Wow, this would be really rough for someone to hear who has lost a child after praying for God to spare the child's life... that they didn't have enough faith.

Shan,

You you suggest that we should not pray for things we desire at all?

[Dr T]

Hello all,

Good question Berry. Can you take that discussion to the new "Prayer what's it for" thread. I want to see where this goes.

Thank you,

Dr. T

[shanstress70]

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Wow, this would be really rough for someone to hear who has lost a child after praying for God to spare the child's life... that they didn't have enough faith.

Shan,

You you suggest that we should not pray for things we desire at all?

SF, you weren't supposed to be here today... I was hoping you wouldn't read all this again.

Just my VERY humble opinion bc I'm trying to make sense of it as well... I personally don't pray for things or circumstances I desire on a regular basis. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's not something I do. I do pray, but I tend to thank God for my circumstances. I do sometimes pray for health for me and my family, but I think I just do it to make myself feel better, as I don't think God chooses who to make healthy and who should have an illness. I pray for comfort during bad times, and for those around me who need it. I would never pray for material things, except if I couldn't put food on the table... but even then I'm not sure God would answer.

It's just really sad to me that someone would think they aren't helped by God bc they don't have enough faith. And what about a child who is harmed? Did they not have enough faith?

I think prayer is more for us humans than it is to God.

But all of this is very hard to put into words, so I don't expect it to make sense to anyone but me! :)

[Dr T]

We've had this conversation before? If you would like to discuss your view of prayer please take it to Prayer-what's it for? thread.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Ray]

Is God so omnipotent as to create a rock that he cannot lift"?

Think about it, whatever the response, it makes him not so omnipotent. LOL.

Heh, good thought. I'm going to try to remember this from now on. :)

[Princess3dward]

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Is God so omnipotent as to create a rock that he cannot lift"?

Think about it, whatever the response, it makes him not so omnipotent. LOL.

Heh, good thought. I'm going to try to remember this from now on. :)

Haha. true.

I left to watch a movie, and a million people posted. lol.

I only read this one since my last post.

If some where directed to me, you can PM them or re-post them.

Ya.. I'm lazy.

[karrie91]

Hello Karrie,

I'm not suggesting that God is as limited as we are in any way. I am only arguing that God is limited by His nature. Like AK pointed out- God will always be "just" yet He is also gracious. That would be an interesting thread. How do those go together?

My thoughts are that our natures do contain our limits. That our limits even though we think we cant go past them, really we cant step outside the boundaries of our nature and that in deed is our true limit

[Dr T]

Serg/Ray,

The "rock so big question" is not a real problem for God's omniscience because of the self contradiction in the question. It an absurdity boys.

===

Hi Karrie

Our limits would be individual. For example, I can't bench press 400 pounds so there is a limit there. My understanding would be that God is not limited in that way. He wouldn't be limited to any human characteristics in the same way. Would you agree?

Thanks

Dr. T

[karrie91]

I would agree that there are no physical limits, but my theory is that each limit is to the individual.

Your example is to bench press 400lb, this is beyond your ability now, but if you trained and worked up to it, would it be beyond your limit? SO is it against your limits, or against the limits you choose?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I've learned several things from pondering my mortal experiences. They are my truths, and I believe they are everyone's truths at the same time.

~ Suffering teaches us what the Spirit can't.

~ This life is designed to help us reach our individual and eternal potentials.

~ God places each of us where and when He knows we will have opportunities to learn from imperfect choices we and others make, opportunies for growth tailored to our unique spirits.

~ God allows mankind to exercise free will or agency; God does not cause the evil in the world.

~ We respond to suffering by choosing to grow bitter, or better.

Christ faced infinite suffering, and in partaking of the bitter cup he didn't grow bitter, but better. Will we grow better when faced with suffering? In D&C Section 19, Jesus describes the suffering and agony he endured while atoning in Gethsemane and on the Cross. In so doing, he reveals the one sentence I hope to be able to say when face-to-face with Heavenly Father at the close of my mortal life. I quote from D&C 19:15-19 below:

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

So great was the agony of the atonement that Christ, who was a God, desired to refuse the bitter cup of sin and suffering that was his to drink to the dregs. With the first word of verse 19, Christ reveals how he chose to face his greatest trial. He says, "Nevertheless." That is to say, despite the immense and certain pain that would pierce his heart, he "partook and finished" his mission as Savior anyway.

I hope one day to look my Father in the eye as a silent review of my trials and struggles passes between us; and as the sum of my suffering is acknowledged by God, I pray I too can say this about what I chose to do when faced with my own Gethsemane and Calvary: Nevertheless, Father...I partook and finished.

In that day I won't busy myself with accusing God of standing idly by while I wrestled with the world of sorrow we all inhabit. I won't dissect my distress in an attempt to discover what percent of it was preventable and hence, "unjust." I will measure the final stature of my spirit against the paragon of perfection that is my Savior. If I can say in that day of appraisal, "Nevertheless, I partook and finished," I feel I will have reached my potential and grown into the man God knows I have it in me to become, through the grace of Christ.

In that day, I will find that the trail of tears I walked until broken and blistered will have led me to eternal joy at God's right hand where await pleasures forever more (Psalms 16:11), and where tears and sorrow are extinct (Isaiah 25:8; Revelations 21:4). In short, I will eternally reside with Christ and all souls who can say regarding their ugly and awful suffering: "Nevertheless, we partook and finished."

This is my witness. I share it in the spotless name of Christ our Lord who believes in us even when we don't believe in him.

[StrawberryFields]

Thank you AK.

Amen.

[Dr T]

Thanks for your thoughts AK :)

[Serg]

Serg/Ray,

The "rock so big question" is not a real problem for God's omniscience because of the self contradiction in the question. It an absurdity boys.

===

Hi Karrie

Our limits would be individual. For example, I can't bench press 400 pounds so there is a limit there. My understanding would be that God is not limited in that way. He wouldn't be limited to any human characteristics in the same way. Would you agree?

Thanks

Dr. T

If it were an absurdity then none of it's two options would be taken, but, as a fact, most theologians(scholastics-modern) have taken the a part of the premise, while process theologians(partly-mormonism) alludes the b part(that He CAN create it, and it doesnt follow that He HAS to be able to lift it). Why?

It goes to the core of things. While the thomistic theologians(christians) cannot conceive of limitations in God, we can. In fact, we(mormons, process theology, etc..) accept a God that is subjet to space(He's got a body), if so, also to "time"(though not with the same decaying results), battles of these thougts you can go and read(endless, LOL). But, in conclusion, surely God does not have to be able to CONTROL(i.e."have power over") every thing He creates, for instance, He created us, INTELLIGENT(FREE) beings, can He control us? No, not "because" He doesnt want to, but because He actually cant! He imparted us with His own essense(of individual freedom), He cant break that, He could stop sustainging our minds and bodies withdrawing His light of life, and thus make us not able to think rationally or even live on earth, but He cant enter our minds and manipulate us and yet preserve our identity and significantly moral freedom, He cant have it both ways, hence, He is not responsible for the evil in the world, and we(mormons) dont encounter our selves with the very good question(made by atheists) of reconciling the Perfect Omnipotent God to our evil deeds. Hence, He can create what ever He conceives as logically and essentially posible to Him(state of affairs) without having(based on thomistic-aristotalean assumption) to actually have power(total-one) over such.

As you see, Dr.T(and this-my comment- is only a mere and worthless fragment of this historical paradox in philosophy), this "absurdity" you call, you only do in reference to Thomas' teachings, not in refference to the bible, or any other source. Thus, this is not a mere absurdity, "easy" to resolve to you, as even you limited yourself concerning it. Lets see your part of the bargain! Go ahead, and make us believe why this valid premise is(Suddenly and contrary to what most-if not all theologists-) is mere absurdity.

Oh, you also said "is not a real problem for God's omniscience ", dont worry , we are talking of omnipotence, not omniscience(that would make another GREAT topic...)LOL.

Regards