Big Heaven, Little Hell

[mordorbund]

I wouldn't determine the "winning" religion as the one that teaches the smallest hell; I would think the "winning" religion is the one that actually knows the will of God. If the truth is that God set all this up to only save 3 people and all else are destined to hell, it doesn't much matter how generous a religion tries to make God look (finite or infinite), I'm still going to hell.

[kayne]

i forget where it says it(more than one place im sure) but straight and narrow is the way and few therebe that find it and wide is the path to destruction and there are many that find it.

the point here is there will always be fewer exhalted beings. why? logic demands it. its harder work. its more difficult. its not easy. as with everything there are fewer A's than there are F's and usually there are the most C's than anything else. i suspect our eternal destinations will fill up accordingly.

furthermore concerning this particular earth. God shows Enoch His creations and point blank calls this earth the most wicked of all Gods creations. so concerning this earth we will have the most that earn a destination of hell. God Himself basically says this.

Furthermore at any given time the amount of faithful followers is few in comparison to that of the world and even then we arent all that faithful a lot of times.

even now we have 12 million members about 4 million are active compared to 7 billion people. no 7 billion people wont just die and be converted. again Straight and narrow is the path and FEW THEREBE that find it. and we are the most wicked of all God's creations.

my guess? the third kingdom is the biggest as you literally have to do nothing to get sent there.

ok i went and found the scriptures i was referencing

13 ¶Enter ye in at the astrait bgate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to cdestruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because astrait is the bgate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto clife, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 7:13-14 

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the acreations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great bwickedness as among thy brethren.

Moses 7 

[pam]

Completely off topic: everytime I see the thread title "Big Heaven, Little Hell"... why does it remind me of the disney movie Aladdin?

Sorry. I now return you back to your thread in progress. :)

The first thing I thought of is the T-rex in Meet the Robinsons. "Big head, little arms."

[kayne]

sorry double post just read whole thread lol

Seems to me that the severity of "outer darkness" is being downplayed quite a bit in the last few posts....

Did anyone bother to read the scripture references I listed to study this topic?

They are pretty stark in their description. For those who are interested, here they are;

Doctrine and Covenants 76:30-38;

"And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he (Satan) made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us;

Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome and to deny the truth and defy my power-

They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come-

Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified Him unto themselves to an open shame.

These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels-

And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of His wrath....."

Wow, this kind of blows me away......

I can only imagine how terrible it will be. I struggle with psychiatric issues. There have been times when I have ran out of my very expensive meds, not being able to afford them and having had no insurance~

The withdrawal I felt from not having them was absolute torture to my psyche. I say this in all seriousness....The pain was so intense I would end up in the hospital to get help....

I look at "the lake of fire and brimstone" as symbolic to the misery of spirit and mind people in this punishment go through. My only hope is that the suffering they experience is not eternal. It does say in the last of the quote, "after the sufferings of his wrath." This denotes to me that their suffering will have an end. Whew.

Dove

but before that it says they will not be redeemed. do not forget the qualifications to get there. having had the truth beyond any doubt and then openly rebelling. and earlier in that it says it would be better not to of even been born which is quite a mind blowing statement i assure you. furthermore The Lords suffering and wrath is infinite and eternal was the atonement as otherwise we would have to eternally pay for it. these people denied this atonement to such a severe extent they cannot partake of it so they must pay for these sins. i think lake of fire and brimstone doesnt begin to do this suffering justice there are just not words in the human language to describe it. think on it Satan the archenemy of God is going there do we really think Satan is going to be making out like a bandit???

really all that needs to be said is it would be better not to of been born about describes the horror that will befall those there. The Guy that created all life just said IT WOULD BE BETTER NOT TO OF BEEN BORN....or in other words since spirits are eternal must of always existed it would be better to of even existed at all in the grand scheme of eternity to not even be an intelligence and whatever came before that to never exist in any state or frame The Lord is not just referencing Human birth here but existence at all in any state. So God just said not existing as matter would be a better fate than outer darkness....that is quite telling indeed. i say this because Satan is going there yet he has never been "born" not in the human birth sense yet God is still telling him it would of been better he never been born yet he cannot be born so clearly God is referencing being a piece of matter and created.

as one who has felt the pains of a damned soul i assure they are agonizing to an end that cannot be written with the spoken word. their pain defies all things on this earth. in fact i would rather go through every horrible act that has ever been committed on earth and in every horror movie and in every porno than be consigned to a state of outer darkness. the agonizing pain there defies all logic. Alma the younger was not joking when he said his Soul was wrecked during those three days of agony. i wish he would of gone on a little more length about that pain but whatever. rest assured it is quite terrifying. yes i would rather not of been born if it meant avoiding hell.

another point - and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mormons don't see the literal fire-and-brimstone type hell that others do. Outer darkness is just a place of separation for spirits who need to be in time-out so to speak. If they will hurt people, the simple solution is to just take away their bodies so they cannot physically touch/harm anything, and then place them far away from others. If they feel tortured - it is their own mind that hurts them, not anyone else. To me it is "eternal life" vs. "eternal death" - plant vs. rock, plants grow... I see outer darkness as just a place for those who choose not to grow.

no all are resurrected and restored. restored as put back together if you are evil that part is put back too if you are good good is put back.

outer darkness also means without the prescence of God. in all the other three kingdoms God can dwell in some form. whether it be the Holy Ghost(third kingdom), Christ and Holy Ghost(second Kingdom) or The Father(celestial kingdom,Christ, and Holy Ghost) and as such have a glory. Outer darkness is no glory and has no prescence of God. God is light. to be without light is to be in darkness. so you are cast out or outer darkness.

[JudoMinja]

I wouldn't at all be surprised if LDS teachings share some similarities with Calvinist thinking. I haven't really studied Calvinist philosphy beyond the basics of the TULIP and our obvious differences, but I've found that as I've engaged in conversations with those who better know and understand the deeper points and teachings of other religions that there are more similarities than differences between us. Now the differences may be some big and important ones or minor details, but we are not so estranged from one another in our beliefs as we may think.

Now- I'm seeing something in your response that is off- You have seen our answers to your question as attributing our salvation to ourselves and our own choices. This would be wrong. We, like you, believe that salvation comes through Christ and only Christ. He is the only path, the only Savior- without him, without turning to him with a humble heart, without the atonement and repentance, nobody could be saved and thus find their way into heaven. Getting into heaven is entirely reliant upon us taking full advantage of the atonement.

Exhaltation, however, is different from salvation. Exhaltation is the reward of receiving the highest glory and being granted all that God has, to become a co-inheriter with Christ and be blessed with all light, truth, knowledge and understanding. Not everyone who makes it into heaven will be exhalted. This is what requires work on our part. We must prove ourselves worthy and capable of handling the responsibilities that come with the blessings of exhaltation.

This is the narrow path which requires adherence to commandments, laws, and covenants. As we exercise self-control and purge ourselves of all ungodliness, through our own choices to engage in righteous doings, we can be filled with more and more light and understanding, and become closer and closer to the influence of the spirit. This requires discipline, self-mastery, and a desire to continuously draw nearer unto Him.

This concept that salvation and exhaltation are two separate things is, as far as I know, a unique teaching of the LDS. We know that God is all merciful and that His gift of grace through the atonement is available to everyone who takes advantage of it, no matter their level of dedication. He is a wonderful and merciful God who wants to extend His blessings to everyone who will take it. He is also a just God, who will reward us for our efforts and grant us a place in heaven equal to our abilities and the amount of light we've opened ourselves to.

Yes, our agency and our choices play an important role in where we end up. God created us with the ability to choose for ourselves so that we could progress and grow according to our own abilities. Our mortality is a probationary state in which we will learn from our own mistakes and have the opportunity to prove ourselves. Christ is our Savior. He is the Way. He has made it possible for us to receive blessings we are too imperfect to obtain on our own. And it is up to us to determine which blessings/responsibilities we will receive added onto our salvation as the work of eternity continues in heaven.

[Blackmarch]

Here is an "at a glance" response to your answers. There are also some very good posts that I want to respond to more specifically.

You all gave a wide spectrum of answers, but with two common denominators. The consensus seemed to be that whether there will be less or more, finite or infinite numbers of people in outer darkness, it is irrelevant because they have sent or relegated themselves to it. Your main concern is to maintain God's justice by affirming their free agency. Also, no one here likes the thought of massive quantities of people suffering that fate and so you want to believe that a minimal number end up that way, and some of you even said that those who do may eventually cease to exist (though there is no LDS source that would go that far).

In a sense then, you have indirectly answered my question by exposing the Elders' argument as self defeating. You cannot criticize the Evangelical view of hell (that is, how many will be there) when you yourself admit that God is righteous to allow (even passively) such a thing to happen to even one person. Did you know that you were Calvinists already? (wink-wink). 'But God tries to save them, and they refuse!' Yes, but it was God who was righteous in allowing a world of sin to exist which would guarantee the fall of some. Doesn't the PGP teach this? Big hell, little hell, infinite hell, or even the cessation of existence, God is still holy and righteous to allow it.

I think you will find bits from all parts of christianity in our religion or something very similar thereto.

I generally haven't, but when I have criticised christianity's view of hell it has been along the lines of they either read too much into it, or too little. For there is very little on it in the bible.

God is just, he cannot give the same judgement to one who has not kept all his laws as he gives one who has, nor can he give the same judgement to one who has kept none of his laws as he gives to one who has kept some.

One does not attain outerdarkness merely by failing to progress, but by continually to activiely rejecting everything that is of God at every chance along the way, after having attaining a sure knowledge of him and his works. these are they who would still choose works of darkness and of wickedness over being in Gods presence, even after a thousand years of suffering.

I do not believe that nothing ever comes from a state of absolute nothing, nor do i believe anything can be sent to such a state 9and the Doctrine and covenants would seem to support this a bit).

Something that also struck me was this: while you see yourselves as owing general salvation and the opportunity of exaltation to Jesus' Atonement, you must then save, progress, grow ,or advance yourselves to attain the complete eternal life/exaltation. Likewise, those in outer darkness fail to do so. You then make yourselves into your own personal saviors or condemners.

Only in the sense that we have a choice in our actions and in what we have in our hearts, by which people are judged. Realise that we have absolutely no power to save or do the saving on our own part. Christ allows us through his grace for us to assist him in his work, but ultimately whether one is condemned or saved to whatever degree will be up to him.

But it is the Lord who saves (Jesus means "Yahweh Saves," Matthew 1:21, Psalm 37:40). Have you ever given thought to the possibility that our agency is corrupt and cannot save us (Romans 8:7)? What if we do not begin at a neutral stance with God, but as something more like apostates in outer darkness (Romans 1:21, 3:10-12)? What if God then, is in the business of saving his apostate enemies (Romans 5:8-10)?

If our agency is corrupt, then we cannot choose christ on our own accord, which in that case we cannot be justly judged for our actions.

God is very much in the business in saving even his enemies on this earth to the extent that they will let him- even those who attain outer darkness from this world will have a body and power over the devil and his followers, and will thus be set above them.

[Seminarysnoozer]

But it is the Lord who saves (Jesus means "Yahweh Saves," Matthew 1:21, Psalm 37:40). Have you ever given thought to the possibility that our agency is corrupt and cannot save us (Romans 8:7)? What if we do not begin at a neutral stance with God, but as something more like apostates in outer darkness (Romans 1:21, 3:10-12)? What if God then, is in the business of saving his apostate enemies (Romans 5:8-10)?

You have to take into account that we believe we are dual beings here in this mortal existence. We are both body and spirit. We are influenced by both the carnal mind of the body, which is corrupt and by our real self, the spirit being. Our test in this life is to see which influence we listen to. Do we listen to the carnal, corrupted influence or the pure spiritual self. Romans 8:7 is just talking about the carnal part of our dual being. You have to include versus 5 and 6 with the above perspective to really understand what is being said there; " 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."

and then it says; " 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

We believe that the natural man is an enemy to God. In other words, the person who listens to nature - the natural body, is an enemy to God. If we have the spirit, which means we listen to our spiritual self over the carnal influences, we can reach life, life eternal. But if it is in us to listen to the carnal influences, that leads to death because to sin is death. My carnal body, though, is not me. It is a temporary situation, a mortal probation that gives me an opportunity to be tested with these influences. My real self, my true nature, is not carnal, it is spiritual ... as it is with everyone. Therefore, we are not an enemy to God, flesh is, carnality is. You have to take our dual nature into account to make sense of those scriptures.

[Bensalem]

I talked with a few elders about 3 weeks ago, and we definitely left as friends. They made this point which i've been contemplating:

"Mormonism has a very big heaven and a very small hell, while evangelical Christianity has a very small heaven and a very, very big hell."

I believe I answered them with Romans chapter 1 and 9 saying essentially that we have rebelled against God and that he has a right to do whatever he wants with his creation in the first place. Of course, we agreed to disagree. We can go down this track if you want, however...

My question (which did not come to me at the time) is this: wouldn't the Hell/Outer Darkness of Mormonism have an infinite population that is always increasing?

I know that no LDS scripture or revelation would say so, and that this is more speculation than anything else, but here is why I ask: I know that it is a commonly held belief among LDS (though not official canonized doctrine) that the process of exaltation has been going on from all eternity, there was never a beginning to it, nor will there be an end. Also, in D&C 132 it describes exaltation as procreating new spirits forever, and logically those spirits would need to live an earthly life themselves to have an opportunity for exaltation. Those earthly lives would need to be lived on a world with sin in it in order for exaltation to be possible (2 Nephi 2), and where there is sin there will inevitably be sinners who end up in hell. I do not know of any provision in LDS teachings for this process to end.

So if the process of exaltation which requires the existence of sin has been going on from all eternity then the population of hell/outer darkness must be infinite. And if the process will continue forever it will infinitely increase. Granted, that would also mean that the populations of the 3 heavens would also be infinite, but the point is that hell in the LDS view may turn out to be infinite and increasing as well.

In the evangelical view however, there will only ever be a finite number of people who will ever exist. Some are elect and some are not, but those numbers are rightly and sovereignly set by God (Isaiah 10). If a smaller hell is the best possible outcome (and I agree) then doesn't the evangelical view win on this score?

I like your perceptive on this and the outcome of the LDS doctrine you describe seems sound. So too is the Evangelical perspective backed up by scripture. But I do not see why the two cannot exist together.

I see it this way. The evangelical view describes what happens to all those souls who ever existed here on earth. What happens here can be finite in numbers and determination yet eternal in outcome. The exaltation doctrine of the LDS can be viewed as universal and not local to earth since we also have a doctrine which foretells of exalted pairs colonizing other worlds.

The universe is a void of space populated with solar systems. The OT teaches that our God is a nomad. Our solar system is as an oasis to our God. What He created here is like unto innumerable places in the universe. Those who reach exaltation will have dominion over these places and will populate them with spirit and with body. The same thing that happened here will happen on other worlds.

The promises received by the LDS related to exaltation do not replace the promises made in the Bible regarding salvation, damnation, or anything else. The revelation of prophets add clarity. It is up to others to accept that clarity or not.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Bensalem