Living Without Offense

[BrotherHinds]

I do not know how many of you watched the Sunday afternoon session of the 176th October General Conference, listened to it, or have recently read the transcripts of General Conference, but I thought that the talk given by Elder David A. Bednar was very moving and had some lessons we could all learn. That is not to say that the other talks were of any less importance, but I have felt the need to focus on some things Elder Bednar had to say in this post and then to add to that the thoughts and words of Terrance Olsen given in 1998 to students attending BYU in Provo, Utah.

Elder David A. Bednar spoke of being offended as being the primary reason for most if not all of peoples inactivity. He then went on to say that there is no such thing as being offended, but rather we "Take offense". Two points I thought to write down from Bednar's talk are:

• The time to sop being offended is now.

• To be offended is a choice we make, not something done to us.

• We can not determine what others say or do, but we can choose how we respond to those things.

I thought that was very insightful. Someone may give counsel that we do not agree with, may make fun of us, may even ignore us. We may find these things offensive, but these people did not offend us. Rather, we allowed anger to enter our hearts because we took offense.

Some points I would like to add to this are the words spoken by Terrance Olsen at Brigham Young University Provo in 1998. He said that "To be void of offense is to not be resentful of, angry with, or hostilly blaming of someone else." How much like the Savior Jesus Christ is this behavior? For Christ truly suffered many things to which He could have taken offense. He was beaten, mocked, rejected, spit upon, cursed, driven up the hill Golgatha to be nailed to a cross, and yet rather than take offense, He uttered this simple plea to His Father and our Father, to His God and our God, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Brother Olsen also mentioned that we often feel that feelings of resentment, hostility, and injustice are the fault of someone else besides ourselves, yet it is no one's fault, but our own that we have allowed ourselves to feel this way and thus we become like those whom we have taken offense from. The Gospel starting point to dealing with injustice, lack of appreciation, or favoritism, or any other kind of offense lies not in the offender, but rather in the one taking offense. We can see this in the story of Nephi and his older brothers Laman and Lemuel as found 1 Nephi 16:1-3:

"And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou has declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear. And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center. And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us."

When we take offense, brothers and sisters, we condemn ourselves of our own faults and shortcomings. We then go on the offense and we behave offensively and harden our hearts toward others as a suppossed defense against attacks from those who might do or say something to which we would take offense. Yet instead we allow ourselves to be further offended or rather we take increased offense and harden our hearts more increasingly. Can you not see brothers and sisters, that this is Satan's path and the way of the world? An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth? If we follow that line of thinking, pretty soon we will all be blind and toothless if we are not already so.

We can not be offended unless we let others offend us, or rather unless we decide to take offense.

The Savior said, "If a man shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if a man shall sue thee at the law and take away thy cloat, let him have thy cloak also." Also, in 1 Nephi 19:9 we read "And the world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men." Should we not do likewise, when men shall do evil against us, or do that to which we might take might take offense?

"I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."

I know that this is not an easy thing to do, and Heavenly Father knows this, but if we humble ourselves, and become like a little child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things, just as the Savior was, then we will be blessed. I have a testimony of the truthfulness of this.

And I leave you my testimony, in the name of our beloved Savior. Even Jesus the Christ.

Amen.

[shanstress70]

Elder David A. Bednar spoke of being offended as being the primary reason for most if not all of peoples inactivity.

With all due respect, I think this is a common misconception of LDS. I know a LOT of former Mormons, and don't know of any who became inactive because of being offended, although I'm sure there are some. Everyone I know is inactive because they stopped believing in the truthfulness of the church, for whatever reason. I think that it's difficult for LDS to believe that so many people can stop going to church, or officially leave, for that reason... hence the excuse.

[BrotherHinds]

<div class='quotemain'>

Elder David A. Bednar spoke of being offended as being the primary reason for most if not all of peoples inactivity.

With all due respect, I think this is a common misconception of LDS. I know a LOT of former Mormons, and don't know of any who became inactive because of being offended, although I'm sure there are some. Everyone I know is inactive because they stopped believing in the truthfulness of the church, for whatever reason.

It may be that they stopped believing, but why did they stop believing. Often times it is because they took offense to something someone said or did, and thus feel that the church can no longer be true. Some then go about trying to find other reasons to say that the church is not true or rather they seek for evidence proving their new belief.

My parents left for this reason, and even I left the church for a time because of this reason. After I left I felt the church was not true because of what people had done or said to me. I speak from experience Shanestress.

Outside of that Shanestress, I was not posting this as a response to those less active or those that have left the church, but rather to everyone regarding taking offense towards something someone does or says to us. If you look at my post in that way I think you will find it more meaningful.

Thank you for your comments sister.

[Blessed]

I think those are some very wise words. Maybe hard to live by, but nothing worthwhile is easy.

Thanks for sharing them. I needed to read it.

[shanstress70]

It may be that they stopped believing, but why did they stop believing. Often times it is because they took offense to something someone said or did, and thus feel that the church can no longer be true. Some then go about trying to find other reasons to say that the church is not true or rather they seek for evidence proving their new belief.

You do speak of a very important point, LDS or not. We can control how WE will deal with a situation, but will never be able to control what OTHER PEOPLE say or do. Therefore, don't let someone offend you. This info helps me in my daily life.

Just for your background, I am formerly LDS, but you can still call me 'Sister'. :) I did not leave bc of anyone in the church's actions or words, but rather through study, then prayer. The conclusion I reached was that it is not true.

I'm sure what you say is true for some, but IMO this is not the case for most, and definitely wasn't the case for me.

[begood2]

Which came first? The chicken or the egg? Was it apathy or non belief?

We all have our own free agency, to choose how we wish to live our lives. As long as it doesn't harm others....we pretty much have the right to live and worship/ not worship as we see fit in the free world.

For some faith alone doesn't cut it....they are looking for proof..which is very difficult if not impossible to achieve. A few truly study and believe that, what they have learned about the church being false is true. But IMO:

I think that the majority of the people that left the church did so initially as a result of conflicting time allocation. Once they made the conscience decision to start skipping church activities in favor of other pleasures...it became harder and harder to go back. Just as it is hard to go back to a strict exercise program after you have skipped out for a time...because we then can think up a dozen reasons why it's just not worth the effort.

SO and so hurt my feeling so I'm not going back,....tea does more good than harm for the body so if this is an error...the whole church must be wrong and so on...

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I think that apathy is the number one culprit in people leaving not only the church, but any thing that requires sacrifices and hard work. The majority is always looking for an easier way with fewer restrictions and more options so that they can have it their way!

[StrawberryFields]

I know quite a few LDS people who stopped going to church because they were offended. To put this in a non-religious point of view think of some reasons why some people who were once important to you are no longer important..

[Dr T]

Hi BG2,

ap‧a‧thy  /ˈæpəθi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ap-uh-thee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun, plural -thies. 1. absence or suppression of passion, emotion, or excitement.

2. lack of interest in or concern for things that others find moving or exciting.

3. Also, ap‧a‧thei‧a, ap‧a‧thi‧a /ˌæpəˈθiə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ap-uh-thee-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation. Stoicism. freedom from emotion of any kind.

from Dictionary.com

Maybe some are from that but I doubt that apathy covers the range of those that leave. Many may actually have fervor about their old beliefs about the LDS church which would be the opposite of apathy.

Dr. T

[begood2]

I know quite a few LDS people who stopped going to church because they were offended. To put this in a non-religious point of view think of some reasons why some people who were once important to you are no longer important..

That is a very interesting way of looking at the situation SF. Thanks for opening my eyes so clearly and yet in a non- confrontational manner to a different point of view.

[shanstress70]

I have a very big goal here these days of not offending LDS on this forum, so I'm walking a fine line. But as strongly as some of you feel about people leaving bc they were offended, I strongly feel that some LDS like to believe that is why people leave. It's just a neater little package that they can whisk away from their minds. If they considered the alternative - that people actually leave bc they realize that the LDS church goes against so many things that they hold to be true and important - they may actually begin to question their own beliefs. But that's just me! :)

I won't go into these things that made me disbelieve, as I've done that in the past so many times, but there are clearly issues that I never felt comfortable with even when I converted to the church some years ago. Missionaries and members always tried to dismiss those issues, but I was never OK with them. I should not have converted, thinking back, but was searching for some void in my life. Perhaps I'm a rare case.

[StrawberryFields]

I have a very big goal here these days of not offending LDS on this forum, so I'm walking a fine line. But as strongly as some of you feel about people leaving bc they were offended, I strongly feel that some LDS like to believe that is why people leave. It's just a neater little package that they can whisk away from their minds.

Some LDS LIKE to believe this is the reason? That is a ludicrous statement leaving the door open for one to think we pick and choose what we know to be true. If someone leaves the church because they are offended that does not reflect a positive light on the church.

I personally know people who have left the church because they were offended. Once they stopped going to church they felt it was easier to just not go back. The LDS Faith is not the easiest religion to live. Some had picked up habits that make it hard to live the LDS faith and that was another reason for them to not return. Eventually some would come to the conclusion that the church was not true thus relieving them of the guilt of not returning and that is what made a nice little package for them. If one wants to find an excuse for something they did... more then likely they will come up with it.

"It's just a neater little package that they can whisk away from their minds."

If you believe that this is what LDS people do then maybe you should not be here, you have nothing positive to offer.

[reyjamiei]

Once they stopped going to church they felt it was easier to just not go back. The LDS Faith is not the easiest religion to live. Some had picked up habits that make it hard to live the LDS faith and that was another reason for them to not return. Eventually some would come to the conclusion that the church was not true thus relieving them of the guilt of not returning and that is what made a nice little package for them. If one wants to find an excuse for something they did... more then likely they will come up with it.

I can attest to the truthfulness of that statement from personal experience. I just returned to the Church after being inactive for six years. I thought about going back to church for about four months before I actually did but each Sunday I didn't go, it was easier not to.

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

Elder David A. Bednar spoke of being offended as being the primary reason for most if not all of peoples inactivity.

With all due respect, I think this is a common misconception of LDS. I know a LOT of former Mormons, and don't know of any who became inactive because of being offended, although I'm sure there are some. Everyone I know is inactive because they stopped believing in the truthfulness of the church, for whatever reason. I think that it's difficult for LDS to believe that so many people can stop going to church, or officially leave, for that reason... hence the excuse.

All the ones that leave my ward leave because someone offended them.

Maybe it is your area...

They told my grandpa that my dad offended them.

And I think it isn't a "neat little package".. it is WORSE.

[Maureen]

<div class='quotemain'>

I have a very big goal here these days of not offending LDS on this forum, so I'm walking a fine line. But as strongly as some of you feel about people leaving bc they were offended, I strongly feel that some LDS like to believe that is why people leave. It's just a neater little package that they can whisk away from their minds.

Some LDS LIKE to believe this is the reason? That is a ludicrous statement leaving the door open for one to think we pick and choose what we know to be true. If someone leaves the church because they are offended that does not reflect a positive light on the church.

I personally know people who have left the church because they were offended...

"It's just a neater little package that they can whisk away from their minds."

If you believe that this is what LDS people do then maybe you should not be here, you have nothing positive to offer.

I'm surprised by your reaction SF. You seem to be proving the OP correct in choosing to be offended by shanstress' remarks. Whether you accept it or not, people leave the LDS church for many reasons; some are offended by fellow members and others leave for doctrinal reasons. Does it make a difference to most members why members leave? Is it worse if members leave due to doctrinal issues or from being offended? Should not all reasons be investigated, so as to come to some solution in keeping members active and happy.

M.

[StrawberryFields]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

I have a very big goal here these days of not offending LDS on this forum, so I'm walking a fine line. But as strongly as some of you feel about people leaving bc they were offended, I strongly feel that some LDS like to believe that is why people leave. It's just a neater little package that they can whisk away from their minds.

Some LDS LIKE to believe this is the reason? That is a ludicrous statement leaving the door open for one to think we pick and choose what we know to be true. If someone leaves the church because they are offended that does not reflect a positive light on the church.

I personally know people who have left the church because they were offended...

"It's just a neater little package that they can whisk away from their minds."

If you believe that this is what LDS people do then maybe you should not be here, you have nothing positive to offer.

I'm surprised by your reaction SF. You seem to be proving the OP correct in choosing to be offended by shanstress' remarks. Whether you accept it or not, people leave the LDS church for many reasons; some are offended by fellow members and others leave for doctrinal reasons. Does it make a difference to most members why members leave? Is it worse if members leave due to doctrinal issues or from being offended? Should not all reasons be investigated, so as to come to some solution in keeping members active and happy.

M.

M.

I didn't say all people leave because they are offended I said some.

What offends me is that she said that we pick and choose what to believe and wrap it up in a neat package.... that is what I find insulting.

[BrotherHinds]

Let it go SF. Choose not to take offense.

You say that "they offended you", like it was their fault that you feel the way you do about their comments. Choose this day NOT to take offense, but rather "If they shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to them the other also."

That was the main point of my message, and apparently ya'll have missed it entirely. It was not my purpose to discuss why people leave the church, but rather the issue of "Living Without Offense". Perhaps you all should go back and reread my ENTIRE post.

[Princess3dward]

Sorry.

[pushka]

Brandon, thanks for your OP. It has given me some food for thought, although I have been thinking about my particular issue for a few months now, and it does get me down.

I have a friend, somebody whom I have arguments with from time to time whenever we've both consumed too much alcohol. We've both said things to cause offense to each other on these occasions.

Usually after a time apart we make up and start to be friends again. I am now in the position where I no longer wish to do this. The friend in question said some terrible things about my daughter, which hurt me and my daughter very badly. The next day, when me and my friend had both sobered up, she rang me and wanted to discuss the matter, but stated quite clearly that she felt she had no need to apologise for her comments as she was correct in what she had said. At that point I stated that I didn't wish to discuss the matter, also that it was too late (1.30am) to be ringing me to discuss it anyway.

We have not seen each other since that date. She has tried to contact me thru a text message, to discuss the argument, but I sense that she will still not have changed her mind on the original argument, so am very wary of talking to her about it.

My problem with this particular person is that we just cannot stop repeating the mistakes of our past...getting very close to one another, so that family secrets etc. are discussed, and then at a party get drunk and start to argue over something completely unrelated, but during which those 'secrets' are usually aired. I don't wish to return to those arguments, and would like to avoid the issue by not making up. I feel bad about this tho, because I haven't 'turned the other cheek' or haven't been strong enough to just ignore her comments and carry on with the friendship. Maybe pride is part of my problem, or maybe I am correct in my approach to this argument, I don't see why I should let this person get away with saying the things she said about my daughter, which were her opinions of my daughter's capability to babysit, (not family secrets!) and feel that I would be doing my daughter a disservice if I did just let it all go and resume a friendship with the person concerned. I just know that we cannot have a long distance friendship and this is at the crux of the matter.

Any comments?

[Princess3dward]

Just my opinion... but it seems that the drinking is the problem...

[StrawberryFields]

You say that "they offended you", like it was their fault that you feel the way you do about their comments. Choose this day NOT to take offense, but rather "If they shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to them the other also."

That was the main point of my message, and apparently ya'll have missed it entirely. It was not my purpose to discuss why people leave the church, but rather the issue of "Living Without Offense". Perhaps you all should go back and reread my ENTIRE post.

That may have been your main point but by post number two the main point had been changed. B)

I know quite a few LDS people who stopped going to church because they were offended. To put this in a non-religious point of view think of some reasons why some people who were once important to you are no longer important..

When I have had someone important in my life, and then they became non important, it has been hurt feelings or an offense that was caused a change.

[Maureen]

I didn't say all people leave because they are offended I said some.

I'll try not to beat a dead horse, but SF you never gave any indication that you believe there could be other reasons for members to leave, other than being offended.

What offends me is that she said that we pick and choose what to believe and wrap it up in a neat package.... that is what I find insulting.

This statement is not very clear. I believe the point shanstress was trying to make is that it is easier for active LDS members to believe that some leave due to being offended than due to other issues, like doctrine or church history. Doctrine or church history deals with the whole church and can be looked at objectively, while a personal offense is quite subjective and therefore is an individual situation; it doesn't have to effect anyone's testimony.

M.

[Princess3dward]

This statement is not very clear. I believe the point shanstress was trying to make is that it is easier for active LDS members to believe that some leave due to being offended than due to other issues, like doctrine or church history. Doctrine or church history deals with the whole church and can be looked at objectively, while a personal offense is quite subjective and therefore is an individual situation; it doesn't have to effect anyone's testimony.

But that is the truth! If they are leaving because they were offended, than they didn't really have enough of a testiminy to stay... If they don't have one... than isn't that because the doctrine hasn't beem proven true to them?

[pushka]

Just my opinion... but it seems that the drinking is the problem...

Hi Desire,

Thanks for your post. I agree that drinking is the main cause of arguments between me and the woman involved. I do know that she can be a little ######y when she isn't drunk too, and we do disagree on lifestyle issues etc. involving our children. Usually I am very good at being a 'yes' person in order to avoid arguing with her, I suppose the drink releases my true feelings about her opinions.

Do you agree that I am doing the right thing by avoiding resuming the friendship with this woman, knowing that the past is likely to repeat itself? Or do you think that I ought to forgive her for the things that she said, and continue to be friends with her and run the risk of this happening again under similar circumstances as before.

If I knew that I could definitely have a long distance only friendship with her, where we do not visit each other's houses lots and go out together and to each other's parties, then I could resume the friendship, but I don't think that I could forgive the things that she said about my daughter, or forget the hurt that the words caused, that I allowed to offend me.

Would you like to comment on what you feel is the correct thing to do in this situation, Brandon? Obviously I know that to avoid alcohol when we're in each other's presence would make a great deal of difference, but we have tried this before and it has only worked for a short time, before alcohol steadily creeps back into the drinks we're having whilst together.

[Princess3dward]

No. I understand how you feel.

I am moving away because of something like that... well.. that is ONE reason!

Can people pray that I can find a place if it is Gods will please?

I really think that would help!

[BrotherHinds]

Would you like to comment on what you feel is the correct thing to do in this situation, Brandon? Obviously I know that to avoid alcohol when we're in each other's presence would make a great deal of difference, but we have tried this before and it has only worked for a short time, before alcohol steadily creeps back into the drinks we're having whilst together.

Yes it seems to me that alcohol is the problem. You go to parties where it is present, you have it around you whenever you are together with this person, whether in your home or hers. The thing is, you need to forgive her, if nothing else at least forgive her in your heart. There are many other things that I see that need to be done, that I would hope that you would not take offense to, and if you truly want to know then feel free to PM me, but this is not the place to discuss those things for they are too personal in nature.

That is not to say that we could not all use the advice, it's that I know how some people respond to things and I would rather not have others comment on those things and thereby take away from the serriousness of them and add their own improper remarks or advice.